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I haven't yet gathered whether the reeds themselves are substantially more expensive, or if there's some other factor involved in making a concertina with concertina reeds that makes the instruments more expensive.

No one is mass producing "real" concertina reeds, and at present there doesn't seem to be enough of a demand for them to support mass production. That has a substantial impact on cost.

 

To try to put this into perspective, imagine what it would cost to build a guitar if all the wood you used -- even for inlay -- was available only in 4" (10 cm) thick planks and you had to cut it to thickness in your own shop. Plywood of the right thickness (a metaphor for "accordion" reeds?) might be available, but it's not quite the same thing. If there were maybe 20 makers of "traditional" guitars in the entire world, each doing the same in their shop, one might imagine that a separate supply business could be profitable, but it wouldn't be a sure bet. At least in the matter of concertina reeds, it hasn't happened. Besides, each maker prefers their own slight variations in detail.

 

As for the name "concertina reeds", as distinct from "accordion reeds", it's somewhat inaccurate, except that a substantial community of people has tacitly agreed to the meaning as used in these forums. Strictly speaking, what we call "concertina reeds", or "real concertina reeds", or "traditional concertina reeds" are reeds constructed according to the design developed by Wheatstone, Lachenal, and other 19th-century English concertina makers. German and other continental European makers use and always have used reeds of the same construction that is currently identified with accordions, even if the only instruments they make/made are concertinas.

 

The difference in internal (and to some extent external) construction between English-engineered and German-engineered designs extends to more than the reeds. And most members of the Concertina.net community are oriented toward concertinas descended from the English lineage, even if some of the modern ones (the "hybrids") use the mass-produced "accordion" type of reeds. So we talk about "our" kind of concertina as "real" or "traditional" or "the concertina", even though the design is not even 3% older in tradition than the German design, and neither form was originally called "concertina". (Actually, the "German" design for reeds and internal mechanism is older, having been used in instruments before the first concertina.)

 

Edited to add: As for other sources of expense related to "concertina" reeds, they are mounted differently, with a fairly precise slot, tapered along the length and beveled in cross-section, cut into the "reed pan" board for each individual reed frame, and then an elongated hole cut through the board within each slot. That hole also needs to be fairly precise, for not only does it allow air to pass through, but a strongly vibrating reed will extend into the hole, and it must not touch the sides. Now that I think about it, I suspect that the dimensions of the hole relative to a reed should also affect the reed's response. I believe these cuts require more labor than mounting "accordion" reeds, and probably additional tools, as well.

Edited by JimLucas
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Following on from Jim's excellent post above, I think that it's well worth bearing in mind the historical context of production of the accordion family (inc German concertina) versus "English" style construction concertinas (inc Anglos!)

 

(Very much open to correction from wiser folk in all this.)

 

My understanding is that all the nineteenth century concertina makers used a lot of outworkers, people working at home or in very small workshops. Concertina construction is designed for relatively low-equipment, labour intensive production, and that goes for reeds, bellows, action, and casework. Accordion production quickly headed in a more "industrial" direction.

If you like, a traditional concertina is a "craft" product, whilst an accordion is much more "industrial." (This is partly a conclusion I came to after building a melodeon/button accordion from scratch!)

 

Look at the reed assemblies, rectangular plates with riveted reeds swinging in uniform cross section slots, versus tapered, bevelled reed frames with screwed reeds swinging in tapered ("relieved") slots.

 

Am I right in thinking that pre-CNC etc concertina reeds were made with fly presses, taps, files and shears!

 

The biggest change since traditional concertina production (almost entirely) closed down between the World Wars is a huge increase in labour costs. Musical fashion aside, can one argue that accordion construction partly survived better because it was already industrialised or industrialisable?

 

[Edit] Surely it's the labour cost that means a single new "traditional" concertina reed will cost you Euro22+ whilst the very best "a mano" type accordion reed plate (two reeds) will cost, what, less that a quarter of that? (An eighth as much per reed!)

Edited by TomB-R
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There are a lot of assumptions in the above and I think they would be best challenged rather than left to mislead.

 

Some concertina makers, not all, used outworkers. Outworkers are not a sign of low-tech but of economically efficient use of labour, as they do not need to be housed or supervised.

 

The equipment used in early concertina and accordion production was the same. When the Lachenal factory was in full swing it would have been the epitome of up to date production method.

 

The reason why accordion reeds are cheaper is nothing to do with design, it is because of demand.

 

Labour has always been the most costly part of concertina production. With even the most expensive materials there is so little of each needed for one concertina their affect on the price is far outweighed by labour.

 

To the original poster, have a go!

 

Chris

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Fair points Chris, perhaps I should have put in more question marks, there was certainly no intention to mislead!

 

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with outworkers, or that concertina production was deliberately low tech at the time, but that it was on a route that was less suited to mechanisation. For example ,in traditional concertina construction there's no equivalent of the folded sheet metal action mounting that enables a bank of keys to be threaded on one axle in an accordion. In a Chinese concertina there's a very similar folded sheet metal mounting in use.

 

You said "The reason why accordion reeds are cheaper is nothing to do with design, it is because of demand."

Yes, get enough demand for concertina reeds and you could mechanise to reduce the price hugely, but are you really saying that at an equal level of mechanisation there would be no cost differences? (Labour included in costs obviously.) I'd find that hard to believe!

 

Labour - Yes, fair point, labour has always been the greater part of the cost, but are the instruments made by a process that requires skill and experience, or by an industrial system that removes those needs?

 

And yes, you are quite right, this has wandered off topic!

 

 

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Are we in need of a TPS (Topic Positioning System)?
:unsure:

Argh! another TLA (Three Letter Achronym)

 

PEDANT ALERT

 

It's not actually an acronym if one doesn't, or can't, pronounce it. NASA, SNAFU and CITES are acronyms. TPS, FBI, CIA and ACLU are just initials. Of course, the existence of the term TLA demonstrates that general usage should lead to a change in dictionary definitions any time now, if it hasn't already...but I shall continue to be a semi-prescriptivist grammar-and-usage curmudgeon.

 

END PEDANT ALERT

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Are we in need of a TPS (Topic Positioning System)?
unsure.gif

Argh! another TLA (Three Letter Achronym)

 

PEDANT ALERT

 

It's not actually an acronym if one doesn't, or can't, pronounce it. NASA, SNAFU and CITES are acronyms. TPS, FBI, CIA and ACLU are just initials. Of course, the existence of the term TLA demonstrates that general usage should lead to a change in dictionary definitions any time now, if it hasn't already...but I shall continue to be a semi-prescriptivist grammar-and-usage curmudgeon.

 

END PEDANT ALERT

 

 

.....and I was worried about getting off topic in talking about the cost of reeds etc.... biggrin.gif

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Fair points Chris, perhaps I should have put in more question marks, there was certainly no intention to mislead!

 

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with outworkers, or that concertina production was deliberately low tech at the time, but that it was on a route that was less suited to mechanisation. For example ,in traditional concertina construction there's no equivalent of the folded sheet metal action mounting that enables a bank of keys to be threaded on one axle in an accordion. In a Chinese concertina there's a very similar folded sheet metal mounting in use.

 

You said "The reason why accordion reeds are cheaper is nothing to do with design, it is because of demand."

Yes, get enough demand for concertina reeds and you could mechanise to reduce the price hugely, but are you really saying that at an equal level of mechanisation there would be no cost differences? (Labour included in costs obviously.) I'd find that hard to believe!

 

Labour - Yes, fair point, labour has always been the greater part of the cost, but are the instruments made by a process that requires skill and experience, or by an industrial system that removes those needs?

 

And yes, you are quite right, this has wandered off topic!

To be fair to accordion makers including the people who make the reeds, making good ones requires equivalent levels of skill. The "industrial" part of the process is designed to suit each type of instrument. The instruments have reeds and bellows in common, but not much else as far as their construction geometry is concerned, and things like single axle keys are a result of the linear arrangement of the reed blocks in accordions which does not exist in concertinas that don't use accordion reed blocks. ( When lever lengths vary, using a single axle means the buttons won't have the same throw, which in a cheap instrument doesn't matter much, but in an expensive one is a definite flaw.) Modern reed making operations for accordions aren't all that complicated or high tech, but making good ones still requires some skilled attention of the same sort as needed to make concertina reeds. To bring this back to the topic, it is worth it to those contemplating making their own instrument, that the traditional design had a lot of thought and experience in it, and unless you are doing it for some experimental fun, trying to redesign it isn't likely to produce something better or easier to make in the long run.

Dana

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A friend of mine, (who happened to be an engineer working for the likes of NASA) made his own melodeon/button accordion, having borrowed a top end italian one, copied everything accurately and used top notch parts. When it was finished he went straight out and bought an italian box of his own, saying he could now understand where the money went and why they cost what they did. :)

Edited by gavdav
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