Reed types and differences to consider

[Selah]

I'm a newbie and still researching concertinas before buying.

 

I'm currently looking at an English Wheatstone baritone with steel reeds which seems to change tone depending on the volume or pressure applied to the bellows (I have only heard it via sound files). Is this typical -- to be expected -- or a red flag?

 

As I don't understand the workings of the insides, what relates to this happening? Do brass, or silver reeds respond differently? Is this an indicator for repair? Does it relate to the bellows?

[Dana Johnson]

I'm a newbie and still researching concertinas before buying.

 

I'm currently looking at an English Wheatstone baritone with steel reeds which seems to change tone depending on the volume or pressure applied to the bellows (I have only heard it via sound files). Is this typical -- to be expected -- or a red flag?

 

As I don't understand the workings of the insides, what relates to this happening? Do brass, or silver reeds respond differently? Is this an indicator for repair? Does it relate to the bellows?

I find lower notes are more susceptible to "blowing flat", as are weaker reeds. While something like an off center reed can dramatically increase this phenomenon, most if not all lower reeds will do this to some extent depending on the maker's choice for the overall stiffness of the reed set. At some point, the extra pressure on the reed can begin to overwhelm it's ability to return in it's swing, and the reed will start to slow down. The stronger the reed, the more the air pressure needs to be to cause this. Lower notes are most affected because of their vastly greater surface area to be acted upon compared to the higher octaves.

 

Generally this isn't out of the ordinary on low instruments, but if excessive, may indicate either a need to have the reeds carefully re set and centered, or simply a poorer set of reeds. Your particular use will drive how much importance this has. If you want a lot of dynamics in your playing, it may not be useable, but if you don't need that much, you can probably get used to playing in it's stable range. I haven't heard any concertinas with Brass reeds in that range ( though I have worked on reed organs with similar reeds in pretty low pitches with brass reeds ) but I don't see any reason why that should improve things. I'd prefer steel reeds regardless for their extra strength and durability.

Dana

[Rod]

I'm a newbie and still researching concertinas before buying.

 

I'm currently looking at an English Wheatstone baritone with steel reeds which seems to change tone depending on the volume or pressure applied to the bellows (I have only heard it via sound files). Is this typical -- to be expected -- or a red flag?

 

As I don't understand the workings of the insides, what relates to this happening? Do brass, or silver reeds respond differently? Is this an indicator for repair? Does it relate to the bellows?

I find lower notes are more susceptible to "blowing flat", as are weaker reeds. While something like an off center reed can dramatically increase this phenomenon, most if not all lower reeds will do this to some extent depending on the maker's choice for the overall stiffness of the reed set. At some point, the extra pressure on the reed can begin to overwhelm it's ability to return in it's swing, and the reed will start to slow down. The stronger the reed, the more the air pressure needs to be to cause this. Lower notes are most affected because of their vastly greater surface area to be acted upon compared to the higher octaves.

 

Generally this isn't out of the ordinary on low instruments, but if excessive, may indicate either a need to have the reeds carefully re set and centered, or simply a poorer set of reeds. Your particular use will drive how much importance this has. If you want a lot of dynamics in your playing, it may not be useable, but if you don't need that much, you can probably get used to playing in it's stable range. I haven't heard any concertinas with Brass reeds in that range ( though I have worked on reed organs with similar reeds in pretty low pitches with brass reeds ) but I don't see any reason why that should improve things. I'd prefer steel reeds regardless for their extra strength and durability.

Dana

 

The opening posting refers to tone, not pitch. Is it not true to say that the tone of most musical instruments is affected by the ferocity with which those instruments are played. My Anglo has an optimum volume above which the quality of tone certainly, to my ear, begins to suffer a little.

[Daniel Hersh]

The opening posting refers to tone, not pitch.

Yes, but the title (subtitle?) of the post says "integrity of pitch".

[Selah]

Poor use of words here...

To clarify the original question(s):

This pertains to the concern of "integrity of pitch" is during the push-pull of the bellows which a player introduced during my search and research.

 

With my limited knowledge I did not know if this was bellow # factor, a reed issue, something to expect more from a baritone than a cause to not buy, or something else entirely.

[Daniel Hersh]

Poor use of words here...

To clarify the original question(s):

This pertains to the concern of "integrity of pitch" is during the push-pull of the bellows which a player introduced during my search and research.

 

With my limited knowledge I did not know if this was bellow # factor, a reed issue, something to expect more from a baritone than a cause to not buy, or something else entirely.

So do you now feel that you have the information you need, based on Dana's response? Or do you have more questions?

[m3838]

Poor use of words here...

To clarify the original question(s):

This pertains to the concern of "integrity of pitch" is during the push-pull of the bellows which a player introduced during my search and research.

 

With my limited knowledge I did not know if this was bellow # factor, a reed issue, something to expect more from a baritone than a cause to not buy, or something else entirely.

 

Your observation is correct. With Baritone you will have lesser dynamics. There are tricks to start low reeds to speak at low pressure, but generally for fuller range of expression you need Treble. Push-pull can be an issue too, as the same pitch is produced by two reeds. They simply can't be in perfect unison. Bellows is at work too. Pulling/pushing too hard will change the pitch of the reed. Annoying fact. So much it is a problem, that Regondi in his tutor recommends NOT using bellows to accentuate notes, but instead double them in octaves every time you need an accent.

[Selah]

Poor use of words here...

To clarify the original question(s):

This pertains to the concern of "integrity of pitch" is during the push-pull of the bellows which a player introduced during my search and research.

 

With my limited knowledge I did not know if this was bellow # factor, a reed issue, something to expect more from a baritone than a cause to not buy, or something else entirely.

 

Your observation is correct. With Baritone you will have lesser dynamics. There are tricks to start low reeds to speak at low pressure, but generally for fuller range of expression you need Treble. Push-pull can be an issue too, as the same pitch is produced by two reeds. They simply can't be in perfect unison. Bellows is at work too. Pulling/pushing too hard will change the pitch of the reed. Annoying fact. So much it is a problem, that Regondi in his tutor recommends NOT using bellows to accentuate notes, but instead double them in octaves every time you need an accent.

 

Your email clarified Dana's nicely. Thank you!! Judy

[Jody Kruskal]

Selah,

 

I play a baritone G/D Anglo and love the honking quality of over-driving the low reeds... sometimes. It is a great effect though not for everyone I suppose. All reeds of all concertinas exhibit a pitch change with varying pressure and the lower the note the greater the change. If you want to avoid the issue then get a treble and you will probably not notice it. As a new player it might be an unwelcome complication. On the other hand, the honking (pitch changing) can be very nice depending on the genre you are playing. It's a quality that can be used to make music and if that baritone EC is the one you want then get it. You can always sell it and get another one if you don't like it.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Jody Kruskal

[m3838]

Selah,

 

I play a baritone G/D Anglo and love the honking quality of over-driving the low reeds... sometimes. It is a great effect though not for everyone I suppose. All reeds of all concertinas exhibit a pitch change with varying pressure and the lower the note the greater the change. If you want to avoid the issue then get a treble and you will probably not notice it. As a new player it might be an unwelcome complication. On the other hand, the honking (pitch changing) can be very nice depending on the genre you are playing. It's a quality that can be used to make music and if that baritone EC is the one you want then get it. You can always sell it and get another one if you don't like it.

 

G/D Anglo is probably closer to Tenor, rather Baritone. A C/G octave lower than standard C/G would be Baritone.

Yes, Tenor occupies a special niche, it's neither too high, nor too low etc.

Another note is that selling Baritone EC would be much more difficult than Treble. Market is noticeably smaller. Even Tenors (or perhaps esp. Tenors) are hard to find buyers for. Treble of good quality is safer bet. Same with Anglo.

Don't quit your day job if you want to experiment with different models.

[JimLucas]

I play a baritone G/D Anglo and love the honking quality of over-driving the low reeds... sometimes. It is a great effect though not for everyone I suppose. All reeds of all concertinas exhibit a pitch change with varying pressure and the lower the note the greater the change. If you want to avoid the issue then get a treble and you will probably not notice it. As a new player it might be an unwelcome complication. On the other hand, the honking (pitch changing) can be very nice depending on the genre you are playing. It's a quality that can be used to make music and if that baritone EC is the one you want then get it. You can always sell it and get another one if you don't like it.

G/D Anglo is probably closer to Tenor, rather Baritone. A C/G octave lower than standard C/G would be Baritone.

A matter of perspective:

In the standard terminology, a "baritone" is an octave lower than "the usual" (treble English, C/G anglo, etc.), so what is normally called a "baritone anglo" is lower than a standard G/D anglo, and an octave lower than a standard C/G. But in terms of range, a standard G/D anglo has the same bottom note as a "baritone" English, and a standard C/G anglo has the same lowest note as a "tenor" (or "tenor-treble") English, though a 30-button anglo will have some gaps in the scale toward the bottom.

 

Another note is that selling Baritone EC would be much more difficult than Treble. Market is noticeably smaller. Even Tenors (or perhaps esp. Tenors) are hard to find buyers for.

Not so.

While demand for tenor and baritone Englishes may be less than for trebles, the supply seems to be smaller by an even greater factor. Dealers rarely have baritones or even tenor-trebles in stock, and they rarely if ever go unsold when they show up on eBay. They also tend to sell for noticeably higher prices than comparable trebles.

 

...selling Baritone EC would be much more difficult than Treble. Even Tenors (or perhaps esp. Tenors) are hard to find buyers for. Treble of good quality is safer bet.

And here I thought that Selah was looking for an instrument to play, not one to sell.

[Selah]

I play a baritone G/D Anglo and love the honking quality of over-driving the low reeds... sometimes. It is a great effect though not for everyone I suppose. All reeds of all concertinas exhibit a pitch change with varying pressure and the lower the note the greater the change. If you want to avoid the issue then get a treble and you will probably not notice it. As a new player it might be an unwelcome complication. On the other hand, the honking (pitch changing) can be very nice depending on the genre you are playing. It's a quality that can be used to make music and if that baritone EC is the one you want then get it. You can always sell it and get another one if you don't like it.

G/D Anglo is probably closer to Tenor, rather Baritone. A C/G octave lower than standard C/G would be Baritone.

A matter of perspective:

In the standard terminology, a "baritone" is an octave lower than "the usual" (treble English, C/G anglo, etc.), so what is normally called a "baritone anglo" is lower than a standard G/D anglo, and an octave lower than a standard C/G. But in terms of range, a standard G/D anglo has the same bottom note as a "baritone" English, and a standard C/G anglo has the same lowest note as a "tenor" (or "tenor-treble") English, though a 30-button anglo will have some gaps in the scale toward the bottom.

 

Another note is that selling Baritone EC would be much more difficult than Treble. Market is noticeably smaller. Even Tenors (or perhaps esp. Tenors) are hard to find buyers for.

Not so.

While demand for tenor and baritone Englishes may be less than for trebles, the supply seems to be smaller by an even greater factor. Dealers rarely have baritones or even tenor-trebles in stock, and they rarely if ever go unsold when they show up on eBay. They also tend to sell for noticeably higher prices than comparable trebles.

 

...selling Baritone EC would be much more difficult than Treble. Even Tenors (or perhaps esp. Tenors) are hard to find buyers for. Treble of good quality is safer bet.

And here I thought that Selah was looking for an instrument to play, not one to sell.

 

Absolutely -- First buy and that will be SOON!! Then LEARN to play! All your many helpful, and often contrasting, comments have been much appreciated! I have a long ways to go so will be back with more questions in the future.