Haydentina

[Michael Eskin]

http://www.tradlessons.com/Haydentina.html

 

Treble range from Bb4 to C#6 and a Baritone range from Bb3 to C#5.

 

Coming soon to the iTunes App Store.

 

Thank you to Robert Pich for the suggestion!

Edited March 7, 2010 by eskin

[Russ Painter]

OK, now I really wish I had a iPhone. This would be great for practicing a bit on the train.

[Michael Eskin]

FYI, all of my apps also run on the newer iPod Touch models as well as the iPhone.

 

I'm curious, I've never seen a Hayden-style instrument in Southern California, are they popular in other areas of the US or in other countries?

 

Cheers,

 

Michael

Edited March 7, 2010 by eskin

[Michael Eskin]

Just got word that Haydentina should be available now on the iTunes App Store.

[david_boveri]

i just got haydentina for the ipod touch. it is a blast! in the long term, i would love to have a hayden concertina, but they are just so hard to come by. i always feel like i am wasting my time--how will i ever get good at playing the hayden in the future, if i cannot practice now? but now i can.

 

the hayden layout is really intuitive and easy to use, and it is so nice to be able to practice fingering patterns/etc on the hayden without having to spend a couple grand to determine whether or not i even find it useful. if you have even been thinking of buying a hayden, i would recommend you trying out haydentina for the iphone or ipod touch, because you will be completely convinced. try out englitina and concertina (anglo), and then you'll see how great hayden is as a layout. i love my anglo concertina in real life, but this app makes my concertina feel uneasy, forlorn, and rejected, .

 

as an aside, i am now taking donations: if anyone has a nice wakker hayden they would like to donate to the "make david's anglo feel unwanted" foundation, i'd be more than willing to accept on the foundation's behalf!

[Boney]

Funny button spacing though. Where'd you get it from? The Hayden specification is 16mm between buttons horizontally and 9mm between vertical rows, but yours seems has the vertical spacing larger than the horizontal. The Stagi layout is different, something like 17mm/13mm. Is it possible to play two notes on a diagonal with one finger on your app?

 

Would it be possible to make a two-handed version, or would the buttons be too close together for the iPhone? Something like this:

[Michael Eskin]

Funny button spacing though. Where'd you get it from? The Hayden specification is 16mm between buttons horizontally and 9mm between vertical rows, but yours seems has the vertical spacing larger than the horizontal. The Stagi layout is different, something like 17mm/13mm. Is it possible to play two notes on a diagonal with one finger on your app?

 

Would it be possible to make a two-handed version, or would the buttons be too close together for the iPhone? Something like this:

 

No, it's not possible to span two buttons with one finger, the hardware just doesn't support that sort of thing unfortunately. Nothing I can do about it...

 

The layout might be possible, once I get done with my current projects I'll give it a try and report back.

[Boney]

No, it's not possible to span two buttons with one finger, the hardware just doesn't support that sort of thing unfortunately. Nothing I can do about it...

The hardware or the firmware? (Not that it may matter for practical purposes).

 

The button spacing on my sketch isn't the Hayden-specified 16/9 either, by the way. It's also a bit stretched vertically. Here's one with a wider range that's very close to 16/9, but may be a bit busy:

[david_boveri]

in order to get a similar range with two hands, you would have to DOUBLE the number of buttons on the screen--from 24 to 48. it would become unusable. the reason michael's other concertina apps have two hands is because those layouts are more efficient. with the anglo, for example, you can drop a lot of non-essential buttons to make it work. the hayden layout, however, is intended to be transposable, and so if you take out some notes to make two hands fit on the screen, you end up having a non-easily transposed system, which takes away all the benefit of the layout. take away buttons on the anglo, and you still get the idea--it's a head trip. take away buttons on the english, and you still understand that it is logical. take away buttons on the hayden, and then you miss out on the magic.

[Kautilya]

http://www.tradlessons.com/Haydentina.html

 

Treble range from Bb4 to C#6 and a Baritone range from Bb3 to C#5.

 

Coming soon to the iTunes App Store.

 

Thank you to Robert Pich for the suggestion!

Neverending creativity!

been sneaking a look at yr wee videos.............for those with no iphonepads

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=englitina&search_type=&aq=f

[Boney]

if you take out some notes to make two hands fit on the screen, you end up having a non-easily transposed system, which takes away all the benefit of the layout.

I can't really agree with that. I think a big part of the "benefit of the layout" is how diatonic scales fall easily under your fingers, and how octaves fall in the same pattern -- neither of which have anything to do with transposability. You can certainly play all kinds of good music on even a limited Hayden keyboard, like the Elise. And isn't playing with two hands part of the essence of a duet? Transposability is nice, but not really "the point." Especially as I feel these "tina" applications are for fun and practice, not performing or serious playing. So a nice wide field for single hand practicing is nice, and so is a more limited width field for practicing with two hands.

 

take away buttons on the Hayden, and then you miss out on the magic.

The layout I posted is perfectly playable in C, G, and D, with the same scale shapes, and all chords in those keys are played with the same shapes, so there's a lot of the "Hayden magic" right there.

[conzertino]

I suggested to Michael that he should program the left hand as a seperate app ( or with a switch between sides ). So one could stick two Ipods with velcro onto a cardboard-box and play with two hands Hayden-duet....

[Boney]

I suggested to Michael that he should program the left hand as a seperate app ( or with a switch between sides ). So one could stick two Ipods with velcro onto a cardboard-box and play with two hands Hayden-duet....

It looks like he already has a "baritone / treble" switch, which is all you would need. I know some "mirrored" options have been proposed, but I don't think any productions models have been made, so the great majority of people using the Wicki / Hayden layout would use the same orientation (notes ascending from left to right) for either hand.

[JimLucas]

It looks like [Michael] already has a "baritone / treble" switch, which is all you would need. I know some "mirrored" options have been proposed, but I don't think any productions models have been made, so the great majority of people using the Wicki / Hayden layout would use the same orientation (notes ascending from left to right) for either hand.

If he does implement the mirror option/version, I'll be very interested to hear what others think of the experience.

 

As far as I know, I'm currently the only person who has experience with a duet in which the keyboards of the two sides are mirrored, rather than arranged as if "side by side". My duet isn't a Hayden, nor any of the standards (Maccann, Crane, Jeffries), and my experience is limited, as I still spend far more time with the other systems, but...

In my experience, neither the side by side nor the mirrored arrangement is inherently easier, more natural, or otherwise preferable. What's more, when switching between my mirrored Pitt-Taylor and a standard Crane or Maccann, I don't find myself trying to play the Crane or Maccann as if it were mirrored, nor the P-T as if were side by side.

[Michael Eskin]

Since I did the Hayden app completely on spec from someone who gave me the layout, what specifically would those who have the app, or would consider buying the app like to see as additional features? I don't play a Hayden style instrument, so I'll defer to those of you who know far more about them than I do.

 

I'm not going to make changes as drastic the tight side-by-side layout suggested, but I could provide an option for a mirror image for those who might want to attach two devices together back-to-back.

 

Assume that the current layout stays approximately the same, would would be great if someone would take one of the screen shots, mark up what notes should be on which buttons, move them around if required (I'm guessing that a mirror image is what is wanted) and email me the marked up image. I don't have any apps in development at the moment, and it would be fun to add some more features to this one if there is interest in taking it to the next level.

 

Cheers and thanks,

 

Michael

Edited March 20, 2010 by eskin

[ragtimer]

if you take out some notes to make two hands fit on the screen, you end up having a non-easily transposed system, which takes away all the benefit of the layout.

I can't really agree with that. I think a big part of the "benefit of the layout" is how diatonic scales fall easily under your fingers, and how octaves fall in the same pattern -- neither of which have anything to do with transposability. You can certainly play all kinds of good music on even a limited Hayden keyboard, like the Elise. And isn't playing with two hands part of the essence of a duet? Transposability is nice, but not really "the point." Especially as I feel these "tina" applications are for fun and practice, not performing or serious playing. So a nice wide field for single hand practicing is nice, and so is a more limited width field for practicing with two hands.

 

take away buttons on the Hayden, and then you miss out on the magic.

The layout I posted is perfectly playable in C, G, and D, with the same scale shapes, and all chords in those keys are played with the same shapes, so there's a lot of the "Hayden magic" right there.

Boney is absolutely right. The "magic" of the Hayden keyboard is its regular layout, not just the transposability (which is of course tererific!).

 

Even a striclty diatonic Hayden, limited to one major key only, would be a blast to play, once you knwo the Hayden layout (and you could learn it pretty fast). An Elise stripped down to jsut the key of C or G (better) woudl have only 13 buttons per side, comparable to a mini-EC. Not that I expect anyone to make one any time soon :-)

--Mik K.

Edited March 20, 2010 by ragtimer

[Michael Eskin]

For reference, this is the layout of the current Haydentina iPhone/iPod Touch app, the screen is 3" x 4".

 

 

Question on Boney's layout, are the two sides an octave apart? What's the lowest and highest notes (relative to middle C)?

 

Here's the proposed main screen:

 

 

and the button guide:

 

 

Just let me know the relative pitches and I can start coding up the app...

 

Thanks,

 

Michael

Edited March 20, 2010 by eskin

[Boney]

For reference, this is the layout of the current Haydentina iPhone/iPod Touch app, the screen is 3" x 4".

Hm, the Apple info I looked up says it's 3.5" diagonally at 163 pixels per inch, or about 2"x3". That probably makes the second layout I posted too tight.

 

Question on Boney's layout, are the two sides an octave apart? What's the lowest and highest notes (relative to middle C)?

Yes, they're an octave apart. The left (bass) side starts at the F an octave and a fifth below middle C (on the upper left in the diagram), and notes go up as you move down and right. The right (treble) side starts at the G below middle C, and notes go up as you move up and left.

 

I don't have an iPhone, but I could probably borrow one to try out this app. With the screen smaller than I thought it was, it's a bit more problematic. The Hayden spec is 16mm x 9mm button spacing, the app as you created it gives about 11.5mm x 12.5mm button spacing. The first two-handed diagram I posted would give 10.4mm x 8.7mm, which might be OK, I'd have to try it. The second (which you were asking about) would be 10.4mm x 5.8mm, which I'd have to guess is too cramped.

 

Taking the actual screen size into account, here's a new one-handed version that would give you a 16mm x 9mm button spacing, with middle C circled in red:

 

 

At that size, a two-handed version with 16mm x 9mm button spacing isn't practical -- you wouldn't even get a full diatonic scale. If you squeezed the buttons to 80% of the Hayden spec (12.8mm x 7.2mm), you could fit in one key with a pretty good range. Here's a version of that in G:

 

 

But the first two-handed layout I posted, even though it doesn't have the Hayden-specified spacing ratio, might be more playable.