Mystery Anglo

[Daniel Hersh]

It's here on eBay. 32 bone buttons, radial reedpan with steel reeds, unusual metal ends that seem likely to be non-original. Lachenal, perhaps? Jones?

[michael sam wild]

Could it be a converted Maccann duet the 6 button columns and irregular layout don't look Anglo originally

[SteveS]

Looks like a Lachenal with replacement ends.

[Jake Middleton-Metcalfe]

Its got a lever type air button aswell, how unusual.

 

The poor thing looks like it needs a lot work done

[Frank Edgley]

How about a Crabb? I have seen one or two with unique end grills. Crabb also used aluminium on some grills and this one looks like that metal was used.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Frank Edgley

[Daniel Hersh]

Could it be a converted Maccann duet the 6 button columns and irregular layout don't look Anglo originally

Hmmm. One end looks like an end of a standard 15-button Anglo, but the other end does look odd. It's also odd that the end with the extra buttons appears to be the left hand side.

 

Looks like a Lachenal with replacement ends.

That was my first guess too. The case looks like a Lachenal case and the concertina fits it well (though I know that doesn't mean much.) But I'm even less sure now.

 

Its got a lever type air button as well, how unusual.

Is that what that thing is? But if so, then yes, that's unusual.

 

How about a Crabb? I have seen one or two with unique end grills. Crabb also used aluminium on some grills and this one looks like that metal was used.

I didn't guess Crabb because I didn't think that they used radial reedpans on concertinas of this size, but I could be mistaken.

 

I'm starting to wonder if the ends might have even be from two different concertinas, such as a 30-button Anglo and a 39-button Maccann. I had assumed that it was an Anglo from a look at the right (?) hand end, but the seller actually doesn't say what system it is.

 

I've now sent a message to the seller asking for pics of the action and the other reed pan. I also asked if the buttons play the same note on push and pull.

[mike byrne]

Its a Jones.

[Daniel Hersh]

Its a Jones.

Based on what? The seller just posted a pic of the action on one side, showing what look to me to be Lachenal levers.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Daniel Hersh

[Daniel Hersh]

We now have a pic of the other reed pan and a pic of the action on the left (?) hand side, which looks like a Lachenal action to me. I've also exchanged some messages with the seller, who says:

• different notes on push and pull
  
• the lever doesn't seem to do anything
  
• there seems to be an air button on the side with more buttons -- it's the button closest to the handstraps. I suspect it's a later addition.
  

More comments, anyone?

 

Could it be a converted Maccann duet the 6 button columns and irregular layout don't look Anglo originally

Hmmm. One end looks like an end of a standard 15-button Anglo, but the other end does look odd. It's also odd that the end with the extra buttons appears to be the left hand side.

 

Looks like a Lachenal with replacement ends.

That was my first guess too. The case looks like a Lachenal case and the concertina fits it well (though I know that doesn't mean much.) But I'm even less sure now.

 

Its got a lever type air button as well, how unusual.

Is that what that thing is? But if so, then yes, that's unusual.

 

How about a Crabb? I have seen one or two with unique end grills. Crabb also used aluminium on some grills and this one looks like that metal was used.

I didn't guess Crabb because I didn't think that they used radial reedpans on concertinas of this size, but I could be mistaken.

 

I'm starting to wonder if the ends might have even be from two different concertinas, such as a 30-button Anglo and a 39-button Maccann. I had assumed that it was an Anglo from a look at the right (?) hand end, but the seller actually doesn't say what system it is.

 

I've now sent a message to the seller asking for pics of the action and the other reed pan. I also asked if the buttons play the same note on push and pull.

[Frank Edgley]

Very strange. Yes, Lachenal-type mechanisms, but Lachenal was more of a mass-produced instrument. These grills do not match anything I've seen from Lachenal, not in the design, material and Lachenal metal ends I have seen never come to the edge of the body. Unless it's some sort of prototype, I doubt it's a Lachenal. Nothing in the interior suggest it's a prototype, except the button configuration. I did work on a Crabb tenor with grills somewhat similar. My bet is that it's not a Lachenal, although I could be wrong. Replacement grills? Perhaps. But Lachenal metal ends, in my experience did not come to the edges. There would be wood trim that the grills would fit into. If someone were replacing the grills, why wouldn't they make the same type grills? If it's a Lachenal, perhaps someone at the factory made up something for his own use, to his own design? Aluminium is very easy to cut & drill.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Frank Edgley

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Just a few comments.

 

Not a Crabb or Crabb conversion.

 

The number is not in the Crabb range, the earliest I have seen being 7***.

 

If the tops had been replaced in the Crabb workshop, then a crimp would have been applied to the edges, the split frames would have been glued together and the tops held in place by the end bolts only.

 

Note. Contrary to the common belief that all Crabb Anglos had parallel chambers, examples of instruments with radial pans do exist.

 

 

Suggestions for the instrument in question.

 

Probably a Lachenal 30 key with wood tops originally, the tops being changed either because the originals were smashed or to accommodate the extra buttons which I believe to be a later addition.

 

The 'odd' positions of the two extra buttons on the left were probably chosen to avoid having to alter the existing action around that area.

 

The small button on the left below the keyboard, also a later addition?, possibly could have controlled a novelty (squeaker/whistle etc.) although the lever appears to stop short of anything.

 

From the pictures, there is no evidence that the wind lever is not original and may have been fitted from new.

 

I believe that the 'modifications' were not a professional conversion but carried out by an enthusiastic owner or unrecognised repairer at some time although the fretwork, not to my taste, is quite good.

 

 

Geoff.

 

 

[Theo]

But Lachenal metal ends, in my experience did not come to the edges.

 

I have a Lachenal here that has metal ends going right to the edges but with a typical Lachenal pattern. Its a pretty typical 32 key anglo no 141736. Its not the first I've seen with this type of ends, but I do agree they are not common.

 

There are three on this page

Edited March 7, 2010 by Theo

[Daniel Hersh]

Very strange. Yes, Lachenal-type mechanisms, but Lachenal was more of a mass-produced instrument. These grills do not match anything I've seen from Lachenal, not in the design, material and Lachenal metal ends I have seen never come to the edge of the body. Unless it's some sort of prototype, I doubt it's a Lachenal. Nothing in the interior suggest it's a prototype, except the button configuration. I did work on a Crabb tenor with grills somewhat similar. My bet is that it's not a Lachenal, although I could be wrong. Replacement grills? Perhaps. But Lachenal metal ends, in my experience did not come to the edges. There would be wood trim that the grills would fit into. If someone were replacing the grills, why wouldn't they make the same type grills? If it's a Lachenal, perhaps someone at the factory made up something for his own use, to his own design? Aluminium is very easy to cut & drill.

My guess at this point is that I agree with Geoff that this was a wooden-ended Lachenal whose ends were badly damaged and were replaced with the metal ones, perhaps by someone who had metalworking rather than woodworking skills. I've not heard of Lachenal-type mechanisms being used on a non-Lachenal concertina. But it's hard to know. And the left-hand layout is odd, though Geoff's theory about that seems reasonable. If it is a Lachenal, it's an early one -- the serial number (5289) would date it around the 1860's according to Wes's dating table.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Daniel Hersh

[Steve Gardham]

Geoff has confirmed everything I was thinking. The displaced extra notes and the unusual endplates are the give away.

The only thing that puts me off it being a conversion of a basic WE 30 key is the quite high quality of the bellows. But these could also be from another box.

[Daniel Hersh]

Geoff has confirmed everything I was thinking. The displaced extra notes and the unusual endplates are the give away. The only thing that puts me off it being a conversion of a basic WE 30 key is the quite high quality of the bellows. But these could also be from another box.

I was thinking that it might have been a rosewood-ended Lachenal rather than a basic mahogany one. I believe that I've seen more of the rosewood ones with badly damaged ends (probably because the fretwork is finer and therefore more delicate) and I think that the rosewood ones were more likely to come with 6-fold bellows.

[Frank Edgley]

Very strange. Yes, Lachenal-type mechanisms, but Lachenal was more of a mass-produced instrument. These grills do not match anything I've seen from Lachenal, not in the design, material and Lachenal metal ends I have seen never come to the edge of the body. Unless it's some sort of prototype, I doubt it's a Lachenal. Nothing in the interior suggest it's a prototype, except the button configuration. I did work on a Crabb tenor with grills somewhat similar. My bet is that it's not a Lachenal, although I could be wrong. Replacement grills? Perhaps. But Lachenal metal ends, in my experience did not come to the edges. There would be wood trim that the grills would fit into. If someone were replacing the grills, why wouldn't they make the same type grills? If it's a Lachenal, perhaps someone at the factory made up something for his own use, to his own design? Aluminium is very easy to cut & drill.

Thanks, Geoff. Yes, the mechanisms would suggest against the Crabb. I am aware that Lachenal made some concertinas with grills that came to the edges, but I, personally, have not seen any flat ones made that way. The grills that I have seen on those Lachenals did not vary that much from Lachenal grills designs, where this one does, quite a bit. The reason I made the guess for Crabb is that I have seen and repaired a rather large Crabb baritone made with aluminum grills, flat, like this one, and coming to the edges, without a crimp. It also had a very unusual grill design, although not like this one. The dealer, who sent it to me for repair, told me it was a Crabb, and I had no reason to doubt him. It was at least 25 years ago. The grills of the instrument that I repaired also looked as though they were a one-off, but I don't think they had Lachenal-type action. Perhaps this one also had had the grills replaced? Didn't Wheatstone also experiment with a similar action, briefly?

Edited March 10, 2010 by Frank Edgley

[michael sam wild]

Just a few comments.

 

Not a Crabb or Crabb conversion.

 

The number is not in the Crabb range, the earliest I have seen being 7***.

 

If the tops had been replaced in the Crabb workshop, then a crimp would have been applied to the edges, the split frames would have been glued together and the tops held in place by the end bolts only.

 

Note. Contrary to the common belief that all Crabb Anglos had parallel chambers, examples of instruments with radial pans do exist.

 

Hi Geoff

We really enjoyed your fascinating talk at The Royal, Dungworth, last night . thanks

 

Didn't you say that sheet aluminium was available and used during and after WW2?

As kids we got bits from shot down planes

 

Mike

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2010 by michael sam wild

[Paul Read]

. Perhaps this one also had had the grills replaced? Didn't Wheatstone also experiment with a similar action, briefly?

Wheatstone used a sort of hook action from 1934 onwards I believe