michael sam wild Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Given that most old concertinas were tuned by ear with just a tuning fork or pitch pipe or another concertina to go by They achieved a lot. Maybe Mr Crabb could advise how it happened. I'm happy about tuning for playing single note melody as I also play flute, fiddle and and whistle and I've tuned my melodeons which have 2 or 3 reeds per note as Jody mentions If I were to tune my Anglo by ear (which I trust by the way) would it be a matter of tuning each reed in a bellows jig and then putting it back and listening again. How do you do meantone etc tuning for chords It feels highly complex to get all the notes to sound 'nice' together - a subjective assessment . I assume that's why Equal Temperament came in, and I suppose it saves on wrecked and precious reeds!. I wouldn't want to adopt a 'system' like Bob Tedrow's interesting tuning, nice as it is, using a tuner to someons else's set rules, although I suppose it helps get it just about right.. This has only started to matter much to me since I've been working on chords with Brian Peters, as I've been playing mainly Irish music with minimal chords, although I've noticed some discords in sessions with some other types of instrument. Even after the niggling 'tune-up' some still sound ropey! some of my 'trained musician' friends have never ought about temperament. have our modern ears become a bit cloth-like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 (edited) I'm not sure, but I suspect some makers do sweeten ET a bit. Not meantone but some few cents here and there. My hunch is that if and how would be a trade secret and probably not revealed in a public discussion like this, at least not in detail. After all, you wouldn't expect a violin maker to disclose her favorite varnish formula. Absolutely! Intriguing thought as to what experimentation one could do digitally, tweaking the pitch of recorded reeds to find something that works...... Do you mean so you could store each reed's sound digitally and then add the others in turn to build up a chord that sounded good. Do sound cards give such hi-fidelity? I also find position in teh reed pan sees to influence the pitch somewhat. Two notes tuned equal sound different if on the push or pull and under the hand or at the periphery. Did the old firms have specialist tuners? . There can be a great difference between musicianship and 'ear' and technical engineering skill after all. No offence meant to the great makers and menders. Edited February 25, 2010 by michael sam wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Weinstein Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Equal temperment exists to make all keys equally out of tune. Seriously. It allows you to modulate across all keyes equally. Meantone (and there are multiple meantone systems) is another method of allowing playing across multiple keys; however in Meantone some keys will sound markedly better than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 So for a C/G or G/D in mainly home keys is there a one size fits all tuning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Weinstein Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 So for a C/G or G/D in mainly home keys is there a one size fits all tuning? Are you playing with anyone else? If not, that G/D Meantone would likely be lovely. If you are, you are likely stuck with Equal Temperment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Equal temperment exists to make all keys equally out of tune. Seriously. It allows you to modulate across all keyes equally. Meantone (and there are multiple meantone systems) is another method of allowing playing across multiple keys; however in Meantone some keys will sound markedly better than others. ANGLO DISCORD. The more I read of this topic the more confused I become. I detect nothing inherently 'discordant' from my 31 year old Anglo. The reeds have not been touched since the day of manufacture. I dodge about primarily but not exclusively between the two home keys of C and G and employ plenty of reasonably complex left-hand chord work and melody and I am unaware of anything which I would describe as 'discordant'. Perhaps I have a discordant ear ? ! (The instrument was originally tuned with the aid of some sort of electronic gadgetry). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Weinstein Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Here is a web page that does a good job (with audio) of explaining temperments. Fair warning, the author is obviously interested in non-equal temperment, and that shows. http://www.kylegann.com/tuning.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Weinstein Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 (edited) More thoughts. On any equally tempered instrument, octaves are always pure. Play in octaves, and you shouldn't hear any "beating" -- if you do the instrument needs to be tuned. Fifths are nearly pure. Thirds are noticeably sharp. So, to hear this, first play an octave. Then, play a close fifth (on the left hand side, play two buttons with a one button gap [say, 3 and 5 in the middle row]). Then, play a close third (on the left hand side, play two adjacent buttons [say, 3 and 4 in the middle row]). All of us have grown with equal temperment, which is why it generally sounds "right". Edited February 26, 2010 by Dave Weinstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted February 26, 2010 Author Share Posted February 26, 2010 (edited) So for a C/G or G/D in mainly home keys is there a one size fits all tuning? Are you playing with anyone else? If not, that G/D Meantone would likely be lovely. If you are, you are likely stuck with Equal Temperment. I think I'll keep the Jeffries 26b C/G in ET for session but I might get the jones 30b C/G and the lachenal 30b G/D done for solo playing or singing with solo accompaniment Roger Digby mentions his Fred Kilroy concertina and its tuning and says it is great Are you out there Roger ? Incidentally I'm going to investigate what happens in harmony singing. Anybody got any good leads? Edited February 27, 2010 by michael sam wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jody Kruskal Posted February 26, 2010 Share Posted February 26, 2010 So for a C/G or G/D in mainly home keys is there a one size fits all tuning? Are you playing with anyone else? If not, that G/D Meantone would likely be lovely. If you are, you are likely stuck with Equal Temperment. I think I'll keep C/G in ET for session sbut I might get a C/G and a G/D done for solo playing or singing solo Roger Digby mentions his Fred Kilroy concertina and its tuning and says it is great Are youout there Roger ? Incidentally I'm going to investigate what happens in harmony singing. Anybody got any good leads? Paul Groff has done extensive work on temperament in concertinas. The last I heard, he had moved to Florida. Michael, I suggest that you try to contact him outside of this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Jowaisas Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 Michael, If you use the cnet advance search; type in Paul Groff you start getting interesting posts and topics like these in General Discussion: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2913& http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=229&st=0&p=1949&fromsearch=1entry1949 In Instrument Construction and Repair type meantone and Paul Groff: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=8345&st=0&p=81073&hl=meantone&fromsearch=1entry81073 http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=8331&hl=meantone&st=0 http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1056&st=18&p=10151&hl=meantone&fromsearch=1entry10151 And there is lots more out there for anyone who cares to use the advanced search feature. Certainly some food for meantone and 1/4 comma thought. (Some of this will make your head spin!) Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted February 27, 2010 Author Share Posted February 27, 2010 Thanks folks I have been in contact with Paul inMiami who has been extremely generous. I have never used the Advanced Search so that is a good lead! Thanks Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted March 1, 2010 Author Share Posted March 1, 2010 this guy seeme to have the idea! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuluLLt_HnQ&feature=channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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