Hayden vs. English for beginner in Afghanistan? (CC Elise?)

[Daniel Hersh]

next up from the Elise is a 46-button Stagi from Button Box for $1000, then there's nothing until you get to Bob Tedrow's 52-button hybrid at $4750, then Wakker's 46-button concertina-reeded one at $5875 and up.

 

Makes you want to consider other systems, doesn't it?

Alternate point of view: if enough people buy $360 Elise boxes, over time a market for a good mid-level $1500-2000 hybrid Hayden Duet box will develop. I'd imagine it's far easier to sell folks on experimenting with the Hayden now that an affordable one is available.

Bob Tedrow's Hayden is a hybrid and it costs $4750. Marcus considered making hybrid Haydens at one point but have put the project on hold because they've got plenty of business building other systems. I know of another maker who's considering a hybrid Hayden, but it's not their top priority -- and if they do wind up building it, I suspect that the price may be higher than $1500-2000.

 

Harry Geuns's proposed Hayden bandoneon is another possibility for those who wouldn't mind an oversize square instrument with a bandoneon-like sound. I'm not sure of the status of that project.

 

For myself, I'm thinking about switching to Crane because I prefer the concertina-reed sound and the vintage 48-button Cranes are such good deals in comparison to the cost of building a concertina-reeded 45+ button concertina today, which is what one needs to do to get a concertina-reeded Hayden.

[JimLucas]

If the Hayden is an intuitive system for a lot of people, why should they have to settle for a different system? If an affordable Hayden introduces enough people to that system, is it that unlikely the market would even produce to meet the demand?

 

I'm one of those people, from a non-concertina background who found the idea of the Hayden Duet system appealing, and a CC 30-key box wasn't more than $20 pricier than a CC English 30-key. If I decide to upgrade to a $1500-2000 box at some point, that's a bridge to cross then.

 

Out of curiosity, is it that extremely difficult for a builder of English concertinas to make a batch of Haydens? I realize the key placement is a bit different, and the reeds are distributed differently, but is it not a relatively similar construction process? I could imagine a maker might need to set up a different template to drill his holes and whatnot, but if CC sells 500 Elises in the next two years, and 15 of those people end up wanting a $2300 hybrid-reed Hayden, would that demand not attract a maker?

IIRC the late Richard Morse was working on a mid-range Hayden after producing similar anglo and english instruments. I don't know what his process was, but given that he never completed the project I'm guessing the answer to your question is: harder than you'd think. There are surely others more with more knowledge of the story than I, but it didn't seem like a simple retool.

I don't know enough of the facts, since the Hayden hasn't been a priority of mine, but I do know that it was a priority of Rich's. I'm sure you could learn quite a bit by searching his posts on this site.

 

I don't know the details of why Rich never produced a mid-range Hayden, but I know that he spent a great deal of time and money trying to do so. And he himself was a player of the Hayden system, as well as being the man who designed and put into production both a mid-range anglo (the Ceili) and a mid-range English (the Albion). If it had been easy, or even merely difficult, he would have had them in production several years ago.

 

I will guess that fitting all the reeds and mechanism for a Hayden with a reasonable range into an instrument of comfortable size was too difficult and not cost effective. The following analysis is my own speculation:

• reasonable range - I believe the usual number of buttons for the few Wheatstones and Dippers about is 46. Since Rich was a Hayden player, I would guess that he felt that anything less than about 40 buttons was too limited to justify the price he would have to charge.
  
• reeds & mechanism - The 37-button Albion English concertina is pushing the limits for fitting accordion-style reeds into an instrument with ends of the size that is shared by both the Albion and the 30-button Ceili. In that case, both ends have virtually the same number of reeds, and reeds of the same sizes. But for a (Hayden) duet with the same number of buttons, there would be fewer of the high (smaller) reeds and more of the mid-range (mid-size), so the total space required would be greater. Also, there would be more buttons on the right-hand end than on the left-hand end, which would mean that for the same total number of buttons, the right-hand would have more buttons and reeds than on the Albion (English).

Two possible "solutions" to the problem would be 1) to reduce the number of buttons/reeds, or 2) to build the Hayden as a larger instrument than the Albion and Ceili.

• Reducing the number of buttons would limit the range, which I have already suggested would be unacceptable.
  
• Increasing the size of the instrument might make the instrument a bit more difficult to handle, but I think the real argument againsst that "solution" is that it would require running two versions of several different production steps which are currently shared by both the Ceili and the Albion. E.g., the bellows for those two are the same size. Setting up a separate production line for larger bellows would likely not be cost-effective.

As I recall, Rich had pretty much abandoned the idea of doing a Hayden instrument to match the Albion and the Ceili, but wsa concentrating on producing his own "traditional concertina"-style reeds so that he could produce a compact Hayden concertina with an adequate range. It would undoubtedly have been more expensive than the Albion and Ceili, but hopefully not unreasonable in price.

 

Rich's untimely death has delayed that project, though there is still hope that the others at the Button Box will eventually carry it through to completion. When? Only time will tell.

[MatthewVanitas]

Harry Geuns's proposed Hayden bandoneon is another possibility for those who wouldn't mind an oversize square instrument with a bandoneon-like sound. I'm not sure of the status of that project.

 

Yeah, I've seen Geun's bandoneon site before. Though on a concertina I'd give up some buttons for compactness, on a bandoneon it'd be great to go hog-wild and have 72 buttons or whatever. However, given that Geun's "Student Model" (single-voiced bisonoric) runs €1800, and his unisonoric "French" model runs €4700, I would venture to guess that his Hayden won't be cheap...

[catty]

I do like classical guitar for those low bass strings. I don't actually strum chords on guitar at all (saving strumming for uke), but just pluck a drone on the bass and noodle around on the higher strings, repeatedly striking a low string every measure or few to keep the background hum. It ends up sounding pretty neat, and works well for slow airs, Persian-esque ramblings taken from dutar music, pipe tunes, etc. Not quite as crowdpleasing as breaking out with "Hotel California", but I like my niche.

 

 

 

Off topic here, but I wanted to suggest trying DADGAD tuning on your guitar if you haven't done so already. Given your interest in modal forms, lap dulcimer, etc., I think you'd find it quite satisfying.

Edited April 6, 2010 by catty

[MatthewVanitas]

Off topic here, but I wanted to suggest trying DADGAD tuning on your guitar if you haven't done so already. Given your interest in modal forms, lap dulcimer, etc., I think you'd find it quite satisfying.

 

I do indeed do a fair bit of DADGAD and open-tuning in general; you get a feel for my overall musical inclinations.

 

 

Update

 

Just wanted to update folks on how things are going thus far, and run a few questions by you.

 

I'm finding the Hayden Duet system extremely intuitive, and doing a lot of mucking about with transposing just for kicks. It's also interesting because it "abstractifies" note relationships; a good portion of the time I have to check to see whether I'm playing in C or D (or A or G) because everything is just so relative. This is also great for puzzling out chord progressions: it feels less like "an Em, than a G, than a D" and more like "vi, I, V" relative to the base mode. I've always been stronger melodically than chordally, so this has been most educational.

 

Couple questions: I'm finding myself really inclined to using 2-finger open-chords on the left hand, even when doing normal I-IV-V progressions. Partially as it's easier, partially because a lot of music I like is drony/modal anyway, and partially to keep the chord from overpowering the melody. Is that a workable method, or is that just a n00b shortcut? I don't come from any sort of jazzy background, so root/fifth chords aren't as limiting to me as to, say, someone who is used to using "D9 dim 7" chords and whatnot.

 

Along those lines, I'm still not finding the limited chromaticity of the Elise to be problematic. In the music I do, I rarely play out of the relative modes of C, D, G, and A anyway, so it's rare that I find myself "missing a button", and only on a few songs do I find the top end limited. Overall quite pleased.

 

I'm about to buy a 35-key Crabb Crane Duet from Barleycorn (he's checking to make sure it's in good enough shape), so it'll be fun to mess with the same number of buttons, but full chromaticity over a smaller range. Still very intrigued as to the possibility of an affordable hybrid duet from Wimm, and need to get in touch with Harry Geuns as to whether that Hayden Bandoneon project is going anywhere, but Harry's site appears down at the moment.

 

Will update more as I get more puzzled out, and hope to go up to Tajbeg Palace and do some recording for YouTube after a few weeks' practice. Torn between doing some nice drony bagpipe tune, or doing some modern pop song; not as a "novelty cover", but to pick a pop song that would sound good on concertina. At the moment inclined to Tears for Fears' "Mad World"...

[Daniel Hersh]

Off topic here, but I wanted to suggest trying DADGAD tuning on your guitar if you haven't done so already. Given your interest in modal forms, lap dulcimer, etc., I think you'd find it quite satisfying.

I do indeed do a fair bit of DADGAD and open-tuning in general; you get a feel for my overall musical inclinations.

 

Update

Just wanted to update folks on how things are going thus far, and run a few questions by you.

 

I'm finding the Hayden Duet system extremely intuitive, and doing a lot of mucking about with transposing just for kicks. It's also interesting because it "abstractifies" note relationships; a good portion of the time I have to check to see whether I'm playing in C or D (or A or G) because everything is just so relative. This is also great for puzzling out chord progressions: it feels less like "an Em, than a G, than a D" and more like "vi, I, V" relative to the base mode. I've always been stronger melodically than chordally, so this has been most educational.

 

Couple questions: I'm finding myself really inclined to using 2-finger open-chords on the left hand, even when doing normal I-IV-V progressions. Partially as it's easier, partially because a lot of music I like is drony/modal anyway, and partially to keep the chord from overpowering the melody. Is that a workable method, or is that just a n00b shortcut?

Well, for what it's worth, it's the same way that I generally approach chording on my own Elise, playing mostly fifths and octaves in the left hand. Thirds often sound problematic on a concertina anyway. And the fifths/octaves approach is somewhat parallel to the open chords you get on a DADGAD-tuned guitar or Appalachian dulcimer as mentioned above.

[David Barnert]

Well, for what it's worth, it's the same way that I generally approach chording on my own Elise, playing mostly fifths and octaves in the left hand. Thirds often sound problematic on a concertina anyway. And the fifths/octaves approach is somewhat parallel to the open chords you get on a DADGAD-tuned guitar or Appalachian dulcimer as mentioned above.

Sometimes when I accompany a tune with ascending parallel 5ths on the left hand (GD AE BF# CG DA, for instance), I call it playing DADGAD concertina.