Regondi

[lachenal]

Was he just a second rate composer? or was he in the same league as Beethoven and Mozart.

[m3838]

Was he just a second rate composer? or was he in the same league as Beethoven and Mozart.

 

He was primarily a guitar performer, a child prodigy.

Then he discovered concertina, and picked it up probably in the search of performing niche.

As composer he wasn't even a second rate, though it's a matter of opinion. J.S.Bach also was second rate composer and was more respected as organ tuner, at least monetarily. His oldest son (I believe) was considered more worthy composer.

[lachenal]

J.S.Bach was a first rate composer, he was also a church organist.

[TomB-R]

J.S.Bach also was second rate composer

 

So who was first rate, (or aren't there any?)

[tzirtzi]

I think this is a very interesting question. I haven't been able to find much Regondi concertina sheet music that isn't way beyond my abilities (if anyone knows of any online / has any they'd be willing to scan, I'd be very interested!) so I've found it difficult to judge.

 

On the plus side, I understand that his guitar compositions are highly respected amongst classical guitarists and I seem to remember reading somewhere that he himself regarded the guitar as his secondary instrument in terms of composition. The guitar pieces of his that I've played I haven't found especially inspiring - but then they're very easy stuff, so perhaps not representative.

 

I may have a search around for performance recordings and videos online of Regondi music on whatever instrument - that would seem a good way to begin to judge.

[lachenal]

Revered for their intellectual depth, technical command and artistic beauty, Bach's works include the Brandenburg concertos, the Goldberg Variations, the Partitas, the Well-Tempered Clavier, the Mass in B Minor, the St. Matthew Passion, the St. John Passion, the Magnificat, The Musical Offering, The Art of Fugue, the English and French Suites, the Sonatas and Partitas for solo violin, the Cello Suites, more than 200 surviving cantatas, and a similar number of organ works, including the celebrated Toccata and Fugue in D minor and Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor.

 

Bach's abilities as an organist were highly respected throughout Europe during his lifetime, although he was not widely recognised as a great composer until a revival of interest and performances of his music in the first half of the 19th century. He is now regarded as the supreme composer of the Baroque, and as one of the greatest of all time.

Second rate?

[m3838]

J.S.Bach also was second rate composer

 

So who was first rate, (or aren't there any?)

 

His son.

[RatFace]

His son.

 

Which one, PDQ?

[Chris Drinkwater]

His son.

 

Which one, PDQ?

 

 

Well, there's Carl Philip Emanuel, for one, unless I am Bach-ing up the wrong tree.

 

Chris

[Anglo-Irishman]

J.S.Bach also was second rate composer and was more respected as organ tuner, at least monetarily. His oldest son (I believe) was considered more worthy composer.

 

Micha,

Have you any evidence (pay slips, invoices, etc.) that J.S.B. earned his money as an organ tuner? Organist, yes - but tuner?

 

And anyway, what has the monetary aspect got to do with it? Respect may be expressed in payment, but ability is not. If it were, Mozart (who died a pauper) would be at best a fourth-rate composer!

 

It is true that J.S. Bach (and his contemporary, Handel) were not popular with the public after their deaths. At that time, Bach's sons would probably have been regarded as superior, because they were more up-to-date. J.S. Bach's music was "rediscovered" by musicians (e.g. Mendelssohn) who had learned so much from reading his scores, and recognised his qualities as a composer.

 

Even today, now that Bach is an established icon in the music world, I think he is still a "musician's musician". Modern composers learn from him, choir singers revel in his music, and people who are into music listen to it with rapt attention. My less musical acquaintances find his music "dry", more like scale exercises. A case of "pearls before swine".

 

In one way, I see what you mean, Micha. There's a saying in my part of Germany, "If everyone were like I should be, the world would be a better place." Compared with what you (or I) would like to be, I suppose the Bachs (all of them!), Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven & Co. really are second-rate!

 

Cheers,

John

[TomB-R]

This thread is meant to be about Regondi. I'd wouldn't spend any more time answering M3838's comments than he has in making them.

[lachenal]

The voice of commonsense.

[m3838]

The voice of commonsense.a

 

True. Regondi made his living by means of public performances, so he is more an entertainer. If his concertina music is represented well on the CDs that I have, Im' not impressed.

Also, Regondi was a novel sensation in London, ways from European musical center. Mozart made a sensation playing common instrument in Vienna, right into the center of that center.

Bach was in periphery, but in close proximity and he too, made himself a name using common instruments, against tough competition.

As organ tuners go, it looks to be a big deal. Not to be confused with piano tuner. He dedicated organs, checked them up and was considered one of the greatest organ builders. He made drawings for some big instruments to be built at extensive cost. His longest employments seem to come from playing violin, not organs.

To compare the two, Bach and Mozart were either in public service or home slaves of Nobility. Regondi was, so to speak, proletarian of music.

One has to only read Bach's letter to that or this Highnesses to feel his humiliation and readiness to bend over.

[RatFace]

Regarding Regondi's music - whether for guitar or concertina it's all generally very eloquent, pretty and quite cleverly constructed. Difficult to play, but not at all difficult to listen to.

 

Comparing Regondi and, for example, Brahms (who lived over approximately the same period) would be like comparing, say, P. G. Wodehouse and Tolstoy. The comparison is not as enlightening as listening to/reading both...

[TomB-R]

Bach was ..... considered one of the greatest organ builders.

 

Source?

[jdms]

To compare the two, Bach and Mozart were either in public service or home slaves of Nobility. Regondi was, so to speak, proletarian of music.

One has to only read Bach's letter to that or this Highnesses to feel his humiliation and readiness to bend over.

 

Is this part of your basis for assigning Bach to the second rank? Bear in mind that in his day as well as in Mozart's, any composer or musician wanting to make a living depended on the patronage of the nobility; Haydn, for example, was famously a liveried servant in a Hungarian prince's court. By Regondi's day, however, it had become possible to have a musical career without seeking favors from the aristocracy.

 

jdms

[m3838]

To compare the two, Bach and Mozart were either in public service or home slaves of Nobility. Regondi was, so to speak, proletarian of music.

One has to only read Bach's letter to that or this Highnesses to feel his humiliation and readiness to bend over.

 

Is this part of your basis for assigning Bach to the second rank? Bear in mind that in his day as well as in Mozart's, any composer or musician wanting to make a living depended on the patronage of the nobility; Haydn, for example, was famously a liveried servant in a Hungarian prince's court. By Regondi's day, however, it had become possible to have a musical career without seeking favors from the aristocracy.

 

jdms

 

I'm not "assigning" anything.

Bach was not considered to be a Hayden of the day by his contemporaries, not me. I don't know what was their basis. Germany was a hot bed of music, musicians had fierce competition.

I can listen to Bach all day long, but I'm not his contemporary, nor part of 18 century establishment. Too bad Bach has become 20 century composer of composers, he would have used the status to feed his family.

As for sources, I read about 4 Bach's biographies, all with different perspectives on things. One did provide copies of pay slips and it was very interesting to see how much things cost those days.

Now I don't think an organ builder had anything to do with wielding a hammer.

It was more an architect and in this role I can imagine J.S.Bach receiving larger payments.