Norman or Tedrow ?

[david fabre]

I'm now 99% convinced that my next instrument has to be a G/D mate to my C/G; and most importantly I've nearly convinced my wife to let me place an order ! (the argument that convinced her was that there'd be a long, long waiting list and that I'd promise not to buy any other instrument meanwhile...)

 

So, I've been looking at what I could get in the "hybrid" category. The choice is restricted because I'd like one with more than 30 buttons (not sure yet how many but I'll probably end up with 40; my first instrument has 40 and I got the bad habit of using all those extra buttons...) So I've ruled out Morse, Edgley, Marcus who do not propose such beasts, and the final choice seems to be between Norman and Tedrow. I guess the best thing to do would be to try them both to make my mind but unfortunately I live in a concertina desert; so I'll have to rely on my impressions... and on possible advice I could get here.

 

From what I can see on their respective websites, both are very appealing. As for the general design, It seems to me that the Norman would be closer to my Wheatstone, considering the button style and placement, etc... The Tedrow seems to be somehow different, with the larger delrin buttons, the hex bolts, the possible octogonal shape, etc... but I may very well like that difference. As for the sound, from what I could hear at various places on the net, I perceive the Norman as clearer and the Tedrow as more reedy. Here again I can't say which I prefer. I may also be biased form the sound files

I've heard, that may not have been recorded in the same conditions.

 

To help me choose I'd be very interested by comments from persons who have been playing both of these.

In particular how do they compare in terms of :

tone,

loudness,

dynamical range,

left/right balance,

action rapidity,

comfort of playing,

bellows responsiveness,

etc...

 

Thanks to anyone for comments and help !

David

 

PS : on this G/D I expect to play various things in harmonic style, including french/breton songs and tunes, song accompaniment, slow airs, carrols, etc... and who knows what else.

A few (bad) examples of my current playing are on myspace (see my signature). Maybe you will find my style more suited to one make or the other...

Edited February 1, 2010 by david fabre

[Ken_Coles]

I have played several examples by both makers and have been very highly impressed by both, I could take either.

 

There is something to be said for having the maker on the same side of the Atlantic as yourself, in case adjustments are needed.

 

Should be fun!

Ken

[Jim Besser]

I'm now 99% convinced that my next instrument has to be a G/D mate to my C/G; and most importantly I've nearly convinced my wife to let me place an order ! (the argument that convinced her was that there'd be a long, long waiting list and that I'd promise not to buy any other instrument meanwhile...)

 

I've just played a couple of Normans; they had a very nice feel, but i felt they were a little weak sounding.

 

I've played a number of Tedrows; they range from good to outstanding. His "Zephyrs" have a really good feel to them, and I liked the sound of the C/G. I love the hex end bolts and wish I had them on my vintage instruments; the search for the perfect screwdriver is enough to make one insane.

 

One other issue to consider. To my ear, at least, the difference in sound between hybrid and traditional instruments is much greater in the lower-pitched G/Ds than the C/Gs. If you like the reedier, more complex hybrid sound, that's not a problem; if you have an irrational attraction to the purer sound of traditional reeds (as I do), you may be disappointed with any hybrid G/D.

[ben]

I have played a Tedrow concertina and believe that it is an excellent hybrid concertina. However, I am not sure that Bob Tedrow builds 40 button anglo concertinas. He concentrates on building 30 to 31 button anglos. I am sure that he can advise you if he does otherwise.

[David S]

I've just played a couple of Normans; they had a very nice feel, but i felt they were a little weak sounding.

 

I'm surprised that you found the Norman a little 'weak'. I have a 30 key G/D (about 12 years old) which I choose above my other instruments (Wheatstones) to play outside because it is loud! The action and response is excellent on the Norman, and he does build a 36 or a 40 key anglo.

 

David

Edited February 1, 2010 by David S

[Woody]

I've got a Norman Standard 36 button G/D and I've never been anything less than completely delighted with it. Of the hybrids that I've tried Normans are my favourite. I've never tried a Tedrow though I know Bob's reputation is excellent.

 

One thing that might be a consideration is waiting time. Andy Norman is currently quoting 18-20 months on his website. My experience dealing with Andy was that the waiting time was accurate and I got my Anglo in the time-frame that he quoted.

[david fabre]

Thanks for impressions;

I see that both have their supporters, on their respective sides of the atlantic !

I guess that I'll certainly be happy with any of them. I'll take a few more days to make my choice...

 

The "proximity" could be a good argument, but proximity is very relative for me

(I'm in south of france, so yes, northern england is a bit closer than Alabama...)

 

As for the price I think that with the current rates they would be comparable, but who knows

what it'll be in one or two years...

 

For the delay, Norman indicated me 22-23 mounths. I don't know for Tedrow, it may be a bit shorter,

but a longer delay is a good point for my wife

 

One other issue to consider. To my ear, at least, the difference in sound between hybrid and traditional instruments is much greater in the lower-pitched G/Ds than the C/Gs.

 

Opinions seem to vary on this point. I remember reading here (but could not find the thread) a report of a comparison

between a hybrid baritone and a Dipper, where it was stated that "the lower it went in the range, the more similar both instruments sounded".

What do others think ?

 

I have played a Tedrow concertina and believe that it is an excellent hybrid concertina. However, I am not sure that Bob Tedrow builds 40 button anglo concertinas. He concentrates on building 30 to 31 button anglos. I am sure that he can advise you if he does otherwise.

 

Well, Bob advised me by PM that he has plans drawn up for a 40b and that it would be an octogonal model (Bob, I hope that you don't mind if I reveal that.)

 

David

[Jim Besser]

Opinions seem to vary on this point. I remember reading here (but could not find the thread) a report of a comparison

between a hybrid baritone and a Dipper, where it was stated that "the lower it went in the range, the more similar both instruments sounded".

What do others think ?

 

Opinions vary on almost EVERY point having to do with concertina sound. It's all personal and subjective.

[Dana Johnson]

I have only played a couple Normans and a few Tedrows., but my impression of the Tedrows is that they are more accordion like in the lower notes than some of the other Hybrids. They were distinctive in sound and should be audible in a session without being overly loud. I felt like the Normans I've tried were a bit rounder in the lower notes, and while someone mentioned thinking them weak, in general, the lower you go in a concertina the louder the reeds tend to be since they move more air and are wider and longer.

 

The difficulty with getting a good sound for low accordion reeds is chamber size. The chambers are usually smaller than they need to be, and to try to cram 40 reeds into a small space really short changes you on chamber size. Which for Accordion reeds has a minimum size limited by the size of the reed plate. If Bob is making a Octagonal and larger model for a 40 button, he may have the room he needs to pull it off. Just remember that the larger the concertina, the more effort it is to play. If you are used to large instruments this may not be a problem for you. A 40 Button G/D is a low pitched instrument. Since accordion reeds take up more room than regular concertina reeds. I see a bit of a compromise coming here. What is possible and barely practical with concertina reeds may be less so with Accordion reeds. Regarding Instrument comparisons, It isn't good to generalize, since one makers instrument may be designed quite differently than another's and in an area like low end tone, the specific choices made by the maker can make a large difference. I've heard Baritone Hybrids that were teeth grittingly bad in the lower notes, and other Baritone Hybrids that were quite nice and very playable. I don't know about Norman, but Tedrow is quite an inventive guy, and has tried a lot of different things. Perhaps that has paid off.

Dana

[Devon Hare]

Is it because of cost that you are looking at a hybrid? It's worth noting that Wim Wakker makes a superb 40 button (Wheatstone style) or 39 button (Jeffries style) anglo. I have the former in F and C. Wim's theory is that the sound from the valves first hits the timber outer rim of the instrument, then comes back out through the part metal ends. I wanted a rich but loud sound, and the instrument certainly gives me this. It's far from 'played in' yet, but the tone is superb throughout the range of the instrument. I'l attach a pic, but you can see more on the Wakker website under Anglo A6. But it is expensive compared to a hybrid, and you have to pay VAT and import duty as well... I think it's worth every penny!

 

[TomB-R]

Is it because of cost that you are looking at a hybrid? It's worth noting that Wim Wakker makes a superb 40 button (Wheatstone style) or 39 button (Jeffries style) anglo. I have the former in F and C. Wim's theory is that the sound from the valves first hits the timber outer rim of the instrument, then comes back out through the part metal ends. I wanted a rich but loud sound, and the instrument certainly gives me this. It's far from 'played in' yet, but the tone is superb throughout the range of the instrument. I'l attach a pic, but you can see more on the Wakker website under Anglo A6. But it is expensive compared to a hybrid, and you have to pay VAT and import duty as well... I think it's worth every penny!

 

 

Tedrow "Standard" c$2250

Wakker Anglo c$4990

 

Seems likely to sway the decision for most people!

 

Presumably a Norman purchased in France EU->EU you just pay the makers price.

Tedrow - TVA plus import duty to add?

[david fabre]

Is it because of cost that you are looking at a hybrid? It's worth noting that Wim Wakker makes a superb 40 button (Wheatstone style) or 39 button (Jeffries style) anglo. I have the former in F and C. Wim's theory is that the sound from the valves first hits the timber outer rim of the instrument, then comes back out through the part metal ends. I wanted a rich but loud sound, and the instrument certainly gives me this. It's far from 'played in' yet, but the tone is superb throughout the range of the instrument. I'l attach a pic, but you can see more on the Wakker website under Anglo A6. But it is expensive compared to a hybrid, and you have to pay VAT and import duty as well... I think it's worth every penny!

 

 

 

Well, actually I've also been looking at "genuine" concertina makers such as Wakker (and also Suttner on my side of the atlantic).

I'm completely sure these instruments are worth every penny (or every euro-cents for me), but i'm not the only one to decide

what to do with the family's euro-cents...

Also, although I've never tried one, all I've heard and read about high-end hybrids make me think that I'll also be happy with one of those

and won't regret my choice.

 

VAT is another issue I'd not thought about. I guess I'd have to pay it if I go for Tedrow (unless I have a trip to Alabama and come back with it)

[Dave Weinstein]

So, I'm lucky enough to have both a Tedrow and a Dipper. Identical layouts, G/D "Drop D" Baritone instruments.

 

It is true that the lower the pitch, the more of a growl there is, even in a concertina reeded instrument. That being said, I would not say "the lower the pitch, the less of a difference there is". You can certainly hear the difference -- hybrid instruments have "fatter" sounds with more overtones than the concertina reeded instruments.

[david fabre]

So...

 

Eventually I bought a ticket in A.C. Norman's waiting list.

According to Andrew's estimations for delay it should be my 2011 christmas present !

 

Last month is was 99% convinced I needed a G/D 40b but now i'm also very, very tempted by a miniature. At present I'm constantly hesitating between both models. Andrew told me I could make the final decision in about 9 months. I hope it will be enough to convince my wife to let me buy BOTH a 40b and a miniature

Edited March 5, 2010 by david fabre

[Rod]

I'm now 99% convinced that my next instrument has to be a G/D mate to my C/G; and most importantly I've nearly convinced my wife to let me place an order ! (the argument that convinced her was that there'd be a long, long waiting list and that I'd promise not to buy any other instrument meanwhile...)

 

I've just played a couple of Normans; they had a very nice feel, but i felt they were a little weak sounding.

 

I've played a number of Tedrows; they range from good to outstanding. His "Zephyrs" have a really good feel to them, and I liked the sound of the C/G. I love the hex end bolts and wish I had them on my vintage instruments; the search for the perfect screwdriver is enough to make one insane.

 

One other issue to consider. To my ear, at least, the difference in sound between hybrid and traditional instruments is much greater in the lower-pitched G/Ds than the C/Gs. If you like the reedier, more complex hybrid sound, that's not a problem; if you have an irrational attraction to the purer sound of traditional reeds (as I do), you may be disappointed with any hybrid G/D.

 

Jim,... going off on a tangent, can you explain to me (briefly) the basic difference between a 'hybrid' instrument and a 'traditional' instrument. After all these years I should by now know but I don't. Rod

[Ransom]

Jim,... going off on a tangent, can you explain to me (briefly) the basic difference between a 'hybrid' instrument and a 'traditional' instrument. After all these years I should by now know but I don't. Rod

Unless I'm way off the mark, hybrid instruments are those made with mass-produced accordion reeds. Traditional concertina reeds are handmade and individually mounted.

[Daniel Hersh]

Jim,... going off on a tangent, can you explain to me (briefly) the basic difference between a 'hybrid' instrument and a 'traditional' instrument. After all these years I should by now know but I don't. Rod

Unless I'm way off the mark, hybrid instruments are those made with mass-produced accordion reeds. Traditional concertina reeds are handmade and individually mounted.

You're right that hybrids use accordion reeds, but they're often hand-made accordion reeds rather than mass-produced ones. I'm not sure what you mean by "individually mounted". Accordion reeds have two reed tongues on each plate and concertina reeds have one. That's the visually obvious difference between them, but there are other more subtle differences that may actually be more important.

[Rod]

Jim,... going off on a tangent, can you explain to me (briefly) the basic difference between a 'hybrid' instrument and a 'traditional' instrument. After all these years I should by now know but I don't. Rod

Unless I'm way off the mark, hybrid instruments are those made with mass-produced accordion reeds. Traditional concertina reeds are handmade and individually mounted.

You're right that hybrids use accordion reeds, but they're often hand-made accordion reeds rather than mass-produced ones. I'm not sure what you mean by "individually mounted". Accordion reeds have two reed tongues on each plate and concertina reeds have one. That's the visually obvious difference between them, but there are other more subtle differences that may actually be more important.

 

What is the purpose of the accordian reed having two reed tongues ? Are the two reeds identical and tuned identically ? Presumably the double reed generates greater volume and possibly richer tone ? Greater bellows pressure must be required to activate double reeds ? The two reeds must have to be set to respond in absolute perfect synchronisation to one another, or perhaps not ?

 

Last week someone posed the question 'What is Concertina.net a cure for ?' In my case the answer appears to be 'ignorance' !