Competitions

[michael sam wild]

We played for a dance, after a wedding , in a village hall in Nottinghamshire which had some old framed certificates form the English Folk Dance and Song Society for winners in performance . Curent TV shows are reviving the talent competition ethos. As a kid in the 40s I worked hard to practice tunes on mouth organ and tin whistle for Co-op talent shows and was happy for the cash prizes . The world of Classical Music seems to have no problem with competition.

 

Peter Trimming on another discussion mentions winning at the last ICA cotest in 1991.

 

A) I have noticed that a lot of musicians in sessions or in discussion of other players are very competitive, often to the point of rudeness.

 

Irish and American musicians will proudly cite winning 'All Ireland contests'

 

Does this push people to become better or to play to set standards and does it miss the point that traditional music had a social and communal function.

 

 

Like footballers and athletes who are driven can you miss the point.

 

Are we British so concerned about equal opportunities and positive discrimination that we discourage excellence? Or have we held on to common values?

 

 

Just off to get me bodhran and get into that session

Edited January 27, 2010 by michael sam wild

[LDT]

 

Just off to get me bodhran and get into that session

 

You going to use it as an improptue shield? lol!

[yankeeclipper]

Does (competition) push people to become better or to play to set standards?

 

Absolutely!

 

(does)traditional music have a social and communal function?

 

Unquestionably!

 

There's plenty of room in traditional music for social and competitive playing. Music only goes sour when people criticize others for playing 'wrong.'

[LDT]

 

There's plenty of room in traditional music for social and competitive playing. Music only goes sour when people criticize others for playing 'wrong.'

 

Ah...but wouldn't there have to be a right and a wrong way of playing for a judge to judge in a competition?

[Randy Stein]

While I play some traditional music it is not my repertoire. However I go to concerts and festivals, and "competitions" in order to hear the music and meet the players. The competitive part can be a bit much but my overall experience is everyone is excited to play and hobnob with their fellow wizards.

One would be remiss to hold the gross lack of standards of some or even popular TV culture to day to what to date is usually a wonderful musical experience.

rss

[tombilly]

I don't know about English trad. but in Ireland the competition thing is generally geared towards younger people and organised by Comhaltas in the main. There's the usual arguement that it gives kids a focus and encourages them to practice and improve etc. and maybe there is something in that although you'd have to question whether competing in a music competition is a valid imperative to practice. i.e. wouldn't it far better if it was for the love of the tunes or for playing with local friends etc.

 

On the contrary side, you'd have to observe that it's bad overall for the health of the music because (a) it encourages standardisation and loss of local styles - kids learn a way to play that'll impress the judges ( the competitions are open to all sorts of bias and subjective decision making and you won't go to any without hearing a stream of comments along the lines of 'such and such should have won but the perosn who won is well connected in Comhaltas circles' etc. etc. © then there's the kids who get discouraged because they never win anything etc. Competitions and exams are all part of 'the system', sometimes a paid system with expensive lessons and other times a system delivered by volunteers. They exist as part of that scheme of things and have got little enough to do with the real playing of music at the end of the day.

[PeterT]

 

Does this push people to become better or to play to set standards and does it miss the point that traditional music had a social and communal function.

 

 

Hi Michael,

 

The way I look at it, traditional music differs from (say) classical music, in that it is functional.

 

If someone listened to a classical concert, they would expect to hear technical excellence, with virtuoso performances by the soloists.

 

With traditional music, song, and dance, these elements were based in the community. A traditional fiddler, playing for the Morris, might be playing to a technically poor standard, and producing a sound which you would not sit and listen to through choice. However, when coupled to the Morris dance, it would make that music visible; the whole performance being something rooted in that community.

 

A similar comment might be made of the Church Quire, which ended around the time when Thomas Hardy was a young man. Again, the music was functional, and based in the community.

 

My opinion is that anything which raises the standard of traditional music is a good thing. I discovered traditional singing competitions in 1985, and concertina competitions in 1986 (having joined the ICA just after the 1985 Festival).

 

As a participant, I'm guessing that the singing competitions were easier to organise. Any established folk festival, with a traditional bias, could run one as long as they could raise the necessary prize money, and find a suitably qualified and respected adjudicator. Amongst others, I had the pleasure of being adjudicated by Bob Copper, Shirley Collins, Packie (Manus) Byrne. They all gave praise where it was due, and highlighted points where performances could be improved upon.

 

When it came to the concertina (Anglo), I had been "playing" in splendid isolation for 18 months, before being recruited by a local Morris team who were desparate for a musician (yes; I was that late 20th century version of the fiddle player). I turned out to be a fast learner of "basic" Morris tunes; all learnt by ear, so not necessarily as they appear in the Bacon "Bible". By 1985, I was playing for 4 different dance teams. In 1981, I could barely play a couple of notes!

 

I must have been doing something right, since the West Country Concertina Players, having heard me play at their 1985 Sidmouth workshops, asked me to teach at their 1986 Halsway Manor weekend (after the late Nigel Chippindale was diagnosed with cancer) and to run an Anglo workshop at the 1986 Sidmouth festival. It was suggested, by Jenny Cox, that I might like to enter the Taunton & Somerset Music Festival of November 1986, in the "Advanced Folk" category. Nothing like starting at the top! This was an incentive for me to work on a set of three tunes, and bring them up to competition standard.

 

The Taunton & Somerset Music Festival was an established event, and Jenny Cox had worked hard in setting up concertina classes as part of the festival. Adjudicator was Dave Townsend, and the scale of marks awarded would have been in line with normal competition practice. Come the day, the venue, a school hall, turned out to be ideal, and about 70 people piled in to hear the various concertina classes. The "Advanced Folk" was a keenly fought contest, with at least three semi-pro performers taking part. I was "first into bat", which could be a good, or bad, thing. I recall hitting just one "bum" note, which was a harmony to what I should have played!

 

The top four in the class were as follows:

 

Iris Bishop (92)

Robin Madge (91)

Peter Trimming (91)

Jean Megly (90)

 

I was suitably encouraged by this result, which helped me to look at my repertoire as being subdivided into three:

 

Function folk tunes (never to be considered for competition).

Folk tunes which had the scope to be worked up as competition pieces.

Party pieces (suitable for some competition categories).

 

So; there we go. A much more rambling response than I had intended; a very personal perspective on competitions, as I experienced them during the period 1985-91.

 

Regards,

Peter.

[Jody Kruskal]

Though formal competition can have negative aspects it doesn't have to.

 

I play regularly for the NYC women's team Half Moon Sword who won first place at a sword dance competiton on our first visit from the US to Sidmouth in the'90s. I believe Sidmouth still runs dance competitions which include points for the music. Another English contest with prizes are the DERT sword dance competitions. A nice general over view here.

 

Amongst others, I had the pleasure of being adjudicated by Bob Copper, Shirley Collins, Packie (Manus) Byrne. They all gave praise where it was due, and highlighted points where performances could be improved upon.

 

That seems like a good thing... praise where it is due and for those who don't win, concrete advice and encouragement to be the best that you can be.

[cplayer]

hi all

Well who "judges the judge"??

cplayer

[hjcjones]

I think, like so many things, it depends on the competition. A lot of the song and dance competitions I've witnessed at festivals tend to be fairly relaxed affairs. It's not that people don't take them seriously, but they're in it for fun and while it may be nice to win, they probably don't matter much in the bigger scheme of things. They can help to raise standards, without too many downsides.

 

I think the danger arises when it all comes a bit too serious. When winning becomes an important career move, I think there's a danger that this will happen. I've no experience of the Comhaltas competitions, but I've heard comments from various sources about "playing to the judges" and a "Comhaltas style", to the detriment of other styles. Irish dance competitions have been criticised for demanding expensive costumes and wigs.

 

So I think competitions can be good for everyone, but they can have negative aspects as well.

 

I only entered one ICA competition, back in 1983, adjudicated by Father Ken. It was quite a serious occasion, but enjoyable, and the feedback was helpful. I won the "playing by ear" category. I also entered the Advanced Anglo category, but I think I confused the other judge because I could only give her a single-line score (printed out on a long scroll of fanfold paper using some rather primitive music software), and anyway I was playing that piece by ear as well. I remember being confused myself by her comment that she "couldn't judge the accuracy of the harmonies without a score" - doesn't she have ears? I thought to myself.

 

Finally, let's not forget that dancing, singing, instrumental and storytelling contests were always part of traditional culture.

[yankeeclipper]

The way I look at it, traditional music differs from (say) classical music, in that it is functional.

 

If someone listened to a classical concert, they would expect to hear technical excellence, with virtuoso performances by the soloists.

 

"Functional"? What's that supposed to mean?

 

Do people attending a 'traditional' folk concert not expect technical excellence and virtuoso performances? Isn't that what concerts of all kinds - jazz, classical, folk, blues, rock, whatever - are all about?

 

Classical music, like all the other music genres, is played at many levels, mostly by amateurs, and more for pleasure than for pay. It's a fairly safe bet that there are more amateurs playing classical music around the world, than are playing Irish TDM.

Edited January 27, 2010 by yankeeclipper

[SqeezerGeezer]

I agree with hjcjones. I have won several competitions on folk instruments other than concertina, including a national dulcimer competition in Winfield, KS, about 10 years ago. In that particular competition, contestants were identified only by number and disqualified if they spoke on stage. The judges were in a private room where they could not see contestants on stage. That competition is as fair and unbiased as it can be made to be. I have been in other competitions, however, where the judges could not only see the contestants on stage but knew their family history and blood type as well. In any competition, I think it is very important that the judges change each year, or from one competition to the next. If the same judges are used each year, certain tunes and styles can easily become the only way to win, and this hurts any growth or experimentation by players. You then have everybody trying to sound like each other, or at least sound like previous winners. Maybe it's just me, but I enjoy hearing all the diversity in music out there.

[Alan Day]

There is no doubt in my mind that working towards a goal is what drives us to be better players.

Joining a band and learning new tunes for a gig, working together towards making a CD, trying to play well in a friendly competition. The old ICA competitions were excellent and it was serious, but not that serious.

I must mention here the Witney Weekends run by Dave Townsend, I have listened to many tapes of these, courtesy of my good friend Peter Trimming, who regularly attended these events. From what I hear marks are given by David on performance and advice as to where he or she could improve.I am not sure about these big competitions , I agree with the previous postings on this one.

Al

[Irene S.]

The way I look at it, traditional music differs from (say) classical music, in that it is functional.

 

If someone listened to a classical concert, they would expect to hear technical excellence, with virtuoso performances by the soloists.

 

"Functional"? What's that supposed to mean?

 

Just what it says - traditional music and song had a function outside that of a "sit down" concert. I can speak for song better than music, since singing has been my main pastime and interest for many years. Traditional song had various functions in the late 19th /early 20th centuries (and before) ... it was used as an accompaniment while working, as a social pastime in company with friends and for communal entertainment rather than being presented as a performance art. It was not, as a rule, something you paid to sit and listen to ... when by dint of payment you could expect technical excellence and virtuosity

 

Do people attending a 'traditional' folk concert not expect technical excellence and virtuoso performances? Isn't that what concerts of all kinds - jazz, classical, folk, blues, rock, whatever - are all about?

 

Hmmm ... speaking personally, no! Technical excellence and virtuosity are fine in their place, but if there's no soul, emotion or feeling behind them then they're not worth a pin. Give me some one with a connnection with the music who isn't a virtuoso over a brilliant technician with none any time.

 

Jody - you mentioned appearing at Sidmouth with Half Moon Sword ... and I think that must have been in 1991. It was the first year I went to Sidmouth, and I was at the Dance competition in question. In fact I think my sister still has the official video of the event!!

 

Harking back to Peter's comments regarding competitions, I can only speak for one competition which I entered - a singing one at the National Folk Music Festival in Sutton Bonington in 2000. Mention was made of festivals having money for prizes ... in fact there was no cash prize for this one. The winner came away with an engraved pewter tankard, and precious little else. It certainly wasn't something you would enter for glory, as (apart from regular attenders at the competition) very few people were aware of the competition, let alone who the winner was . I entered as I was aware that the judges gave valuable and unbiassed reliable feedback (having been to several of the ones in earlier years), and I felt I wanted some outside comment about what I was up to (friends and relatives can only be relied upon so far with a degree of belief). The judges that year were Eddie Upton, now director of Folk South West, and Chris Coe (vocal coach at Newcastle University and one other these days) - so both very respectable and knowledgeable in their field.

 

One thing I would observe about a competition of this nature is that it is not by any stretch of the imagination a normal performance atmosphere ... there is a degree of pressure in performance which is not the norm as you are much more acutely aware of every little thing (including stance and breathing) being under the microscope and up for comment (something you don't normally get in performance or sessions with particularly reliable honesty) . Mind you, it certainly focuses the attention, and makes you up your game. I definitely found it to be a valuable experience, knowing, as I did, that the feedback I was getting was genuine ... and recommended it to a newly made friend a few months before the next competition. She entered to get her own feedback ... and became the proud possessor of a pewter tankard in 2002. (And I have my own from 2000 - not something I tend to mention too much, as I'm a little embarassed to have joined the stereotypical band of folkies with pewter tankards, a fact which isn't helped by wearing open toed sandals in the summer either.

 

On the concertina side ... I don't think I'm going to be entering any competitions any time soon

[yankeeclipper]

Irene - you and PeterT seem to be assuming that classical music is something that mostly happens in formal concerts. Mostly played by old men in black tuxedos. Far from it! There are millions of people around the world who play classical music for the joy of it. That's one of the reasons why there are more pianos, flutes and clarinets made today than there are concertinas and pennywhistles.

 

Comparing classical concerts with informal ceilidhs makes no sense at all - compare concerts to concerts. A concert - classical, folk or otherwise - is a performance, where a higher level of skill and virtuosity should be expected. When I pay for tickets to a concert, classical or jazz or traditional, I expect a high level of performance from the players. "Soul, emotion and feeling" is not exclusive to any musical genre, and can be experienced at every level from in-home musical evenings to professional performances.

 

As for the "functional" bit, yes, there was a time when songs evolved to help raise sails, carry burdens, waulk cloth, etc. But those "functions" are mostly relegated to the distant past. And in my travels I've heard more than a few bits of Mozart, Verdi and Ravel being hummed and whistled on streets and in shops and markets - so maybe their music is "functional" too!

[Jody Kruskal]

As for the "functional" bit, yes, there was a time when songs evolved to help raise sails, carry burdens, waulk cloth, etc. But those "functions" are mostly relegated to the distant past.

 

I like this notion of Functional Music. The South African black miner who plays concertina to help with the long trek through the bush that was mentioned in a recent thread. The work songs to coordinate repetitive labor. My 16 year old son likes to listen to some very repetitive techno music when he does math homework. There is a place for music where it's function is not to be listened to exactly (as in a concert) but rather to set a mood or drive away loneliness or make activity easier. I rarely listen to music for pleasure except when I'm cooking in the kitchen or driving the car.

 

Another modern example is every time I play for a dance. A few people actually listen, but even they are completely distracted by their main activity... dancing.

 

This distinction between functional for doing, and concert music for listening makes sense to me even though every situation contains some of both elements. When I play in a concert setting, I don't often use the same material as a dance... and if I do, I don't play it the same way. Just the same if I'm playing for myself or among friends or for a Shakespeare play or performing for young children or writing music for a video game. Every context has it's own rules, needs and expectations. It does not seem wrong for there to be a set of rules, needs and expectations for a competition too.

 

Nice to know what they are before you play though.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Jody Kruskal

[Rod]

As for the "functional" bit, yes, there was a time when songs evolved to help raise sails, carry burdens, waulk cloth, etc. But those "functions" are mostly relegated to the distant past.

 

I like this notion of Functional Music. The South African black miner who plays concertina to help with the long trek through the bush that was mentioned in a recent thread. The work songs to coordinate repetitive labor. My 16 year old son likes to listen to some very repetitive techno music when he does math homework. There is a place for music where it's function is not to be listened to exactly (as in a concert) but rather to set a mood or drive away loneliness or make activity easier. I rarely listen to music for pleasure except when I'm cooking in the kitchen or driving the car.

 

Another modern example is every time I play for a dance. A few people actually listen, but even they are completely distracted by their main activity... dancing.

 

This distinction between functional for doing, and concert music for listening makes sense to me even though every situation contains some of both elements. When I play in a concert setting, I don't often use the same material as a dance... and if I do, I don't play it the same way. Just the same if I'm playing for myself or among friends or for a Shakespeare play or performing for young children or writing music for a video game. Every context has it's own rules, needs and expectations. It does not seem wrong for there to be a set of rules, needs and expectations for a competition too.

 

Nice to know what they are before you play though.

 

 

I reckon that it is totally inappropriate that music should ever be likened, in any respect, to a competitive sport.

[michael sam wild]

I've been talking to a few friends about this subject and was reminded that traditional singers like Joseph Taylor entered a competition that Percy Grainger held in Lincolnshire; people bowled for a pig, range bells for a barrel of beer, climbed greasy poles, shot at popinjays, paid the piper, do pub quizzes,enter Easter bonnet contests, did the cake walk and have cutting contests in rap music.

 

 

The question of adjudication is easy if it's mano a mano or timed but more difficult if it's qualitative where you need a tem of judges- , 'Oi'll give it foive' or a popular vote. How do you judge a gurning contest? Look at these Cumberland face pullers!

 

 

Just off to measure my leeks and mix the secret feed. Then I'll sabotage those of the guy in the next allotment garden.

Edited January 28, 2010 by michael sam wild