low A reed for a 30 button C/G

[michael sam wild]

On my Jeffries I have a low A pull on the lowest ( note) button on the LHS G row of my C/G Anglo

 

On most other Anglos , including my Jones, there seems to be a D pull that duplicates the pull D on ther LHS of the C row

 

 

I find that low A very useful both in chords and tunes such as Stoney Steps.

 

How many people have got that A and which makers'layouts provide it?

[Azalin]

Hmmm on most concertinas I played or owned, there was a low A in that position, never saw one with a D...

[david fabre]

My linota initially had a D. I lowered it to A, which I effectively find much more useful.

I first did that (badly) by weighting with solder.

Then, when doing the full renovation, Colin Dipper did it more properly by setting a new reed.

 

My stagi was also like this (it's a G/D so this note was A, which I lowered to E)

[michael sam wild]

For some reason my 30 button Jones C/G has a ,G# push/,F pull on the lowest LHS Accidental so I think it is destined to be the A pull on the G row and to be replaced with an ,E push

Edited January 20, 2010 by michael sam wild

[TomB-R]

Published charts seem to say- A= Jeffries, D=Wheatstone/Lachenal.

[Kelteglow]

Hi Michael .Both my Wheatstone and AC Norman have a pull A bottom of the G row .On the Norman I have put the pull A on added new key with a F sharp push but so far I have not used the A. ATB Bob

[Dana Johnson]

On my Jeffries I have a low A pull on the lowest ( note) button on the LHS G row of my C/G Anglo

 

On most other Anglos , including my Jones, there seems to be a D pull that duplicates the pull D on ther LHS of the C row

 

 

I find that low A very useful both in chords and tunes such as Stoney Steps.

 

How many people have got that A and which makers'layouts provide it?

I've seen both the A and the D on Jeffries ( My old C/G Jeff had a D ) A lot of Wheatstones have the D, but I don't know if it is universal there either.

Most everybody making instruments today will do either except me. ( I only offer the A )

Dana

[Steve_freereeder]

On my Jeffries I have a low A pull on the lowest ( note) button on the LHS G row of my C/G Anglo

 

On most other Anglos , including my Jones, there seems to be a D pull that duplicates the pull D on ther LHS of the C row

 

 

I find that low A very useful both in chords and tunes such as Stoney Steps.

 

How many people have got that A and which makers'layouts provide it?

I used to have a Wim Wakker A1 C/G anglo, which had the low A on the G-row.

My current instrument, a Wheatstone, has low D, but I think I would prefer it to have been A.

 

Colin Dipper told me that the duplicate low D on the G-row derived from the days when anglo concertinas used to be tuned in non-equal temperament; the low D on the G-row was tuned slightly differently from the low D on the C-row, presumably because D in the key of D major (played on the G-row) was not quite the same as D in the key of C major (played on the C-row).

 

I get the impression that modern makers are providing the low A as a matter of course these days, (i) because players of Irish music seem to prefer it, and (ii) in equal temperament tuning there is no advantage to be had by having the low D duplicated, so it might as well be changed to a more useful note.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Steve_freereeder

[michael sam wild]

Published charts seem to say- A= Jeffries, D=Wheatstone/Lachenal.

 

Thanks for all the info folks. It looks as though Jones was a Lachenal , Wheatstone man who for some reasoon like a G# push on his lowest LHS Acc.

 

 

Steve do you think we've lost much with modern temperament?

Edited January 21, 2010 by michael sam wild

[Steve_freereeder]

Steve do you think we've lost much with modern temperament?

Ummm... that's an interesting question and I'm not sure I know the answer. Other people may think differently but I think my ideas go something like this:

 

We are so used to hearing equal temperament these days, on pianos and keyboards. It is certainly very 'convenient' to be able to play in all keys without the tuning sounding dire once you get beyond a couple of sharps or flats.

 

But there is something about the sound quality of single free reeds that renders anything slightly out of tune rather noticeable, compared with say, a piano. On an equal-temperament tuned concertina, chords of bare fifths will have a slight beat to them, as in ET the 5ths are tuned a fraction close rather than perfectly (i.e. beat-free) in tune as would be the case in True Temperament. Similarly, thirds are rather wide in ET, compared with TT. It doesn't matter too much, except perhaps in slow sustained music when the slight roughness of ET can become a little obtrusive.

 

On the other hand, the chords in the home keys of a TT tuned instrument sound absolutely sweet and gorgeous - quite an eye (or ear) opener when you hear it for the first time.

 

Because my concertina-playing is mainly in the chordal harmonic style, I guess tuning and temperament are more important to me than if I played exclusively in melodic Irish style.

 

 

 

[david fabre]

 

Colin Dipper told me that the duplicate low D on the G-row derived from the days when anglo concertinas used to be tuned in non-equal temperament; the low D on the G-row was tuned slightly differently from the low D on the C-row, presumably because D in the key of D major (played on the G-row) was not quite the same as D in the key of C major (played on the C-row).

 

 

That's very interesting.

If someone has this in hand I'd be very, very curious to see how exactly these old instruments in non-equal temperaments were tuned.

[Daniel Hersh]

I hesitate to disagree with Colin Dipper...but it was always my impression that the D was there because it was there on the 2-row German concertinas that preceded the Anglo, and it was on the German concertinas because their two rows were set up identically to each other.

 

And I think that the A has largely succeeded it, not just because Irish players like it, but because it provides a low A on the pull that would otherwise be missing from the instrument. That A is just as useful for English/harmonic/duet style Anglo playing as it is for Irish style.

 

Colin Dipper told me that the duplicate low D on the G-row derived from the days when anglo concertinas used to be tuned in non-equal temperament; the low D on the G-row was tuned slightly differently from the low D on the C-row, presumably because D in the key of D major (played on the G-row) was not quite the same as D in the key of C major (played on the C-row).

 

I get the impression that modern makers are providing the low A as a matter of course these days, (i) because players of Irish music seem to prefer it, and (ii) in equal temperament tuning there is no advantage to be had by having the low D duplicated, so it might as well be changed to a more useful note.

[Steve_freereeder]

I hesitate to disagree with Colin Dipper...but it was always my impression that the D was there because it was there on the 2-row German concertinas that preceded the Anglo, and it was on the German concertinas because their two rows were set up identically to each other.

 

And I think that the A has largely succeeded it, not just because Irish players like it, but because it provides a low A on the pull that would otherwise be missing from the instrument. That A is just as useful for English/harmonic/duet style Anglo playing as it is for Irish style.

 

Colin Dipper told me that the duplicate low D on the G-row derived from the days when anglo concertinas used to be tuned in non-equal temperament; the low D on the G-row was tuned slightly differently from the low D on the C-row, presumably because D in the key of D major (played on the G-row) was not quite the same as D in the key of C major (played on the C-row).

 

I get the impression that modern makers are providing the low A as a matter of course these days, (i) because players of Irish music seem to prefer it, and (ii) in equal temperament tuning there is no advantage to be had by having the low D duplicated, so it might as well be changed to a more useful note.

 

 

Interesting! Before Colin imparted this piece of information to me a few weeks ago, that would have been my opinion on the reason for the duplication too. Perhaps both points of view are correct: I wonder whether, because the duplication was available, some makers/tuners in the late 19th or early 20th century experimented with the True Temperament tuning of the low D.

 

The same duplication exists on two-row melodeons too, probably, in just the same way, because of the original 'default' German two-row set-up of these instruments. But because of the wet tuning that these two-voice instruments were commonly given, I don't think ET or TT would have made much difference anyway.

I agree about the low A being just as useful for English/harmonic/duet style Anglo playing.

[Daniel Hersh]

I hesitate to disagree with Colin Dipper...but it was always my impression that the D was there because it was there on the 2-row German concertinas that preceded the Anglo, and it was on the German concertinas because their two rows were set up identically to each other.

 

And I think that the A has largely succeeded it, not just because Irish players like it, but because it provides a low A on the pull that would otherwise be missing from the instrument. That A is just as useful for English/harmonic/duet style Anglo playing as it is for Irish style.

Colin Dipper told me that the duplicate low D on the G-row derived from the days when anglo concertinas used to be tuned in non-equal temperament; the low D on the G-row was tuned slightly differently from the low D on the C-row, presumably because D in the key of D major (played on the G-row) was not quite the same as D in the key of C major (played on the C-row).

 

I get the impression that modern makers are providing the low A as a matter of course these days, (i) because players of Irish music seem to prefer it, and (ii) in equal temperament tuning there is no advantage to be had by having the low D duplicated, so it might as well be changed to a more useful note.

 

Interesting! Before Colin imparted this piece of information to me a few weeks ago, that would have been my opinion on the reason for the duplication too. Perhaps both points of view are correct: I wonder whether, because the duplication was available, some makers/tuners in the late 19th or early 20th century experimented with the True Temperament tuning of the low D.

 

Could be true - I doubt that we can know for sure.

[michael sam wild]

talking about low notes

I borrowed a Bb/F 46 button and it has some really low growly notes on the LHS. I've transposed the notes for that layout in my exploration of C/G layouts for my chromatic 42button Jones .

 

There's an extra button on each row

Acc = ,, A/,,Bb

 

C row = ,,G/,,G

 

G row =,,B/,D

 

 

They are great !

Edited January 23, 2010 by michael sam wild