Decision Time: Dipper Vs Suttner

[slatteryj]

Please Help!

 

I have been to another session last night and I have reached the end of my teather with my constant struggling with trying to hear my Wheatstone over the mass of fiddles and melodions. I currently play a beautiful fully restored mahagony ended Linota which I love. It has superb action and tone, but a concertina that cannot be heard in a session is not earning its way.

 

I have thought about buying a new-new instrument for a couple of years and for every year that I procrastinate, I become 1 year further from what I want and need. I want to order a Dipper or a Suttner as I know they come with a reasonable guarantee of volume as well as in all the other quality criteria. I am aware of the waiting times and I know the prices are not too dissimilar.

 

Has anyone played both and what are you opinions regarding volume, and particularly the extent to which you loose quality of sound in order to achieve volume. Are they 'too loud' in a session? Does the harshness impact 'very' significantly when playing slow airs?

 

I would greatly appreciate the benefits of any experience that any of you have with regard to these instruments.

 

I live in Reading, Berkshire, England. Is there anyone local to me who had a Dipper/Suttner, I would love to visit for a cup of tea and to hear your concertina. I would bring 'chocolate biscuits'. I am also partial to a nice stout or ale!

 

Thanks for reading

John

[Chris Timson]

My Dipper is relatively quiet, but that's because I wanted it that way - a baritone C/G made to be mellow and subtle for song accompaniment. The point of saying that is that Colin will make you what you ask for - ask for it to be loud, and believe me, that's what you'll get. He should be able to build in a bit of sophistication (his word) to the tone as well, if you ask for it.

 

I have played the odd Suttner in passing on shop stalls etc, but not enough to get any feel for volume in a session. They are good instruments to play, though, that I can tell you, very nearly as nice as Dippers. (You'll be getting the idea by now that I am something of a Dipperphile).

 

My advice to you would be to visit the Sage of Heytesbury (only a couple of hours drive from Reading) and get your order in as soon as possible. Then relegate it to to the status of very pleasant daydream. A few years down the line your number will come up and you will become one of the big winners in the lottery of life.

 

In the meantime, why not look out for a metal-ended Jeffries. No subtlety in the tone of many of them (there are exceptions, my 45-button G/D has a beautiful sound) but bags of volume. The loudest concertina I have ever head is a G/D Jeffries belonging to Martin Nail. I have heard it compete on equal terms with a tenor sax before now. It's the personification of the Jeffries Honk.

 

Chris

[Paul Groff]

Dear John,

 

I understand your question and agree it is frustrating not to hear yourself in group playing. We have never met, and I have never heard or tried to play in your session. My comments may not apply at all to your particular concertina, style, hearing, or musical community, and of course I have no interest in gratuitously offending you! But your post reminds me of situations in which I have often found myself as I have tried to learn more about the concertina and about group playing. As a former leader of sessions and the teacher of many adult beginners, I have a particular gut reaction to what you wrote.

 

In a typical "session" with several or many musicians playing at close quarters, a concertina will often sound MUCH quieter to the player than to those adjacent to him or her (or even to others quite a distance away). Some irish pipers have a similar problem, in that the sound is copming out down around their laps, while the fiddles and flutes seem to project the sound much closer to ear level.

 

I have often come up to a session where a concertina (whether played well or poorly) was just blasting out in volume relative to the other instruments, sometimes to the evident discomfort of those sitting near its player, only to have the concertinist confide "can't hear myself in here!"

 

I guess one response to the problem is just to get a still-louder concertina, but this seems sometimes to lead to a sort of "arms race" in communities of musical amateurs, with each trying to get a louder flute, fiddle, etc., and the box player pulling out more stops. A universal problem I suppose of the beginner, the amateur, those who are working hard at home to develop some music that works and are frustrated in public when they don't hear their work as clearly. In my high school years we had some guys in the rock bands that kept turning themselves up.

 

I know it is more likely for concertinists to make mistakes when they don't hear their own instrument but in my view the best solution is to practice until you can play your music flawlessly even if you couldn't hear it, then try to occupy a place in the room (e.g. with a wall at your left) where your sound will reflect back to you the most.

 

As a dealer in concertinas I often hear requests for a concertina that will "cut through" or dominate other instruments. Professionals, band leaders, those who play outside really may need this and it may be best for all if they get this. But be careful what you ask for, because this characteristic of many concertinas (and some concertina players) can be ugly in a social milieu.

 

In my experience a concertina that has a warm and beautiful tone (and this can be difficult to maximize concurrently with volume and responsiveness) is more likely to leave your fellow musicians saying "that concertina music sounds GOOD!" Isn't that a better goal than having them say "you can hear the concertina a mile away" (maybe with a rolling of the eyes) or even "all I could hear in there was that concertina."

 

In an ideal world (that is I admit,, MY notion of an ideal world), group playing would include lots of listening, lots of individuals "sitting out" tunes or underplaying when this improves the quality of all the music (and the fun). Inclusive, sure, but not dragged down to the lowest common denominator by a selfish impulse to be "in the game" all night no matter how roughly you are playing, or to hear yourself even if that makes others less likely to hear themselves. The goal is that the group should enjoy how everyone sounds. Those who don't have many years of practice may find it best to have one or a few tunes practiced to perfection, so they can contribute 5 or 10 minutes of beautiful music that all (even the dedicated, lifelong musicians who rightly have high standards of quality) can HONESTLY enjoy. While playing their "party piece" they will be less likely to be distracted by a bad acoustic environment, and more likely to get a very positive response from all. This is a much less selfish contribution to an evening's music than 3 hours of thoughtlessly "practiced," rough and sloppy playing. You wouldn't serve your friends dish after dish of poorly prepared, incompletely cooked food, or drag them by force out on the water in a leaky, poorly constructed boat you built. Similarly, if you offer your music in public (even in concerted playing with a group), it should be properly prepared, well finished, and robust to the "waves and weather" of the performance environment. So many are impatient to get their music out in public before it and they are ready, and I think this increases the difficulty inherent in playing the concertina where there is a lot of other sound surrounding you, closer to ear level.

 

Again, I understand that YOUR particular problems may only be solved by a louder instrument, but if you can somehow encourage all the rest to listen more (not only to themselves) and for all to play more quietly, and with more concern for quality than for volume, there may be many other benefits in store for all of you.

 

BTW, the instruments made by the Dippers and by Juergen Suttner are miracles of craftsmanship, modern wonders of the world! And they can be played quietly and subtly as well as for "cutting through."

 

With respect, best wishes, and the hope that you won't be annoyed by MY too loud, and certainly imperfect, music if we meet,

 

Paul

[Chris Timson]

Largely agree with you, Paul, although I have reservations about insisting that a person has to be able to play without actually hearing what they play before they can play in a session (actually, I know you weren't being so draconian in your strictures, but you know what I mean...). Thing of it is, concertina players do have the option of holding the instrument up under the chin. This improves the volume wonderfully and is something I do a lot. Photos seem to suggest it doesn't look as idiotic as you'd think, or perhaps I'm just being hopeful.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

Edited to add PS - I still think you should order the Dipper, though. Whether you want the extra volume built in or not, the feeling when it eventually arrives is not to be missed.

Edited May 11, 2004 by Chris Timson

[JimLucas]

I want to order a Dipper or a Suttner as I know they come with a reasonable guarantee of volume as well as in all the other quality criteria.  I am aware of the waiting times and I know the prices are not too dissimilar.

What are you waiting for? Order one of each!

With the queues as long as they are, you'll have at least a couple of years to learn more and make up your mind and cancel one of the orders (or perhaps to earn enough money to afford one of each).

 

It's not like anyone's likely abuse you if everyone else in one of the queues suddenly gets to move up a notch. And the makers certainly won't be losing any business, since they can't keep up with what they have. (Just don't drop out after they've started construction.)

 

Then again, there's a Suttner available right now in the Buy/Sell Forum. Jump the queue! If you later decide you'd rather have a Dipper, I'm sure you'll find a buyer for the Suttner.

[JimLucas]

I currently play a beautiful fully restored mahagony ended Linota which I love.  It has superb action and tone, but a concertina that cannot be heard in a session is not earning its way.

I'm inclined to take Paul's comments one step further. In my opinion, if the concertina can't be heard in the session, then the session isn't earning its way!

 

A session that is loud is no longer musical and, in my opinion, not enjoyable. Never mind my concertina, I've been in sessions where I couldn't hear the full-volume fiddle or even accordion sitting right next to me well enough to pick out the melody, though there was certainly plenty of volume in the room. And I wonder, "What's the point?"

 

A lot depends on the acoustics of the space, as well, for "carrying power". Once at the National Folk Fesival I was listening to a dance band at the foot of the hill, with various fiddles, guitars, banjos, etc., a hammered dulcimer, even a couple of accordions, and one concertina. The concertina was, needless to say, inaudible. Except that, when I got to the top of the hill, I could hear the concertina, and little else.

[Alan Day]

One of the most interesting things that came out of the first recording that I heard myself playing with the group, was that I was playing too loud.I was dominating the other instruments with my playing.The perfect situation was when I could not hear myself at all.Very off putting at first but with a small group you soon know when you have made a mistake.

As far as your instrument is concerned there is no better instrument than the Linota you are playng at the moment.You may find that playing an octave higher or possibly dropping the chords on a few times through may help.

Al

[Samantha]

I find this thread really interesting, and I'm *not* thinking of buying a new concertina. I love the way it highlights all the different ways of being heard in a session, or why you might not be heard ...

Samantha

[ldpaulson]

A session that is loud is no longer musical and, in my opinion, not enjoyable. Never mind my concertina, I've been in sessions where I couldn't hear the full-volume fiddle or even accordion sitting right next to me well enough to pick out the melody, though there was certainly plenty of volume in the room. And I wonder, "What's the point?"

 

Here! Here!

 

or is that ...

 

Hear! Hear!

 

Seriously, I've been in some of these sessions described, in various genres (Celtic, old-time, bluegrass). It's a mess when everyone is playing melody at full volume. What's worse is when there are one or two instruments present that could be recruited for rhythm playing present and they are forced to play nothing but for the entire session. Everyone can take turns playing rhythm -- even fiddlers can chop.

 

What's worse is if the session is one in which the rules are that the session should just be fun (a.k.a. anything goes). It's really not much fun for anyone if it is loud and unmusical.

 

ldp

[JimLucas]

Here! Here!

And still, we can have differing perspectives.

 

What's worse is when there are one or two instruments present that could be recruited for rhythm playing present and they are forced to play nothing but for the entire session.

But if they want to play the melody (or even a harmony line), why not? There's no law that requires a rhythm backup. Some of my favorite music is pure melody, with no chords or other "rhythm". And I've run into the "opposite" problem, where there are only one or two melody instruments, but six guitars/bouzoukis playing chords, and none of the six takes a break. No wonder some folks think all Irish music sounds the same... it's hard to notice the differences between melodies when no melodies are audible.

 

What's worse is if the session is one in which the rules are that the session should just be fun (a.k.a. anything goes).  It's really not much fun for anyone if it is loud and unmusical.

For some, the joy comes entirely from participation, and the musical result of the participation is not so much irrelevant as unnoticed. Then there is another type, more practiced, who revel in being able to play expertly with everyone else, but who are disturbed by improvisation. Luckily (IMO), there are other possibilities.

[Robin Madge]

The problem with the sound emerging from the instrument at right anglrs is that you never hear exactly the same sound as the audience.

It can be quite revealing when someone else plays your instrument and you get to hear it properly, and I'm not refering to the ability of the player!

 

Whenever possible I sit in a corner in sessions so that the sound bounces back from the walls at me, and avoid sitting to the left of an accordian or melodian.

If you can find a surface that will direct it upwards as well so much the better.

 

Some singers have used the wall corner effect to project their voices further. I am told that Margaret Barry would sing facing into a corner to project the sound backwards behind her.

 

Robin Madge

[JimLucas]

The problem with the sound emerging from the instrument at right anglrs is that you never hear exactly the same sound as the audience.

That's true, but it's true of any instrument.

I don't know of any musical instrument that projects the sound back at the player.

[Jim Besser]

Paul Groff wrote:

 

> a concertina will often sound MUCH quieter to the player

> than to those adjacent to him or her

 

This is a useful thread because there is great danger in having a very loud concertina. I know this from hard experience. Playing in a large open band, I very often can't hear my instrument at all, even though I am playing robustly -- but an experiment in recording the band revealed that it is quite audible to others -- as are my mistakes.

 

So in a session, it's not safe to assume that just because you can't hear it well, others can't either. Learning to adjust to different settings, with different levels of sound and different acoustic properties, seems to me to be a critical part of our concertina educations. And learning to play when there are a half-dozen fiddles screeching, banjos jangling and a wall of noise coming from the stage monitors.

[stuart estell]

Whenever possible I sit in a corner in sessions so that the sound bounces back from the walls at me, and avoid sitting to the left of an accordian or melodian.

If you can find a surface that will direct it upwards as well so much the better.

Another way to hear yourself better in a group is to not play with the instrument on your knee, but play it airborne - lift it up closer to your ears if you can. This suggestion comes with the added disclaimer that you'll be half-deaf by the end of the evening.

[Robin Madge]

Quote "I don't know of any musical instrument that projects the sound back at the player. "

 

How about Jaws harp ?

 

I'm not starting any debate about what constitutes a musical instrument I hope!

 

Robin Madge

[JimLucas]

I don't know of any musical instrument that projects the sound back at the player.

How about Jaws harp ?

Nice try, but no.

The jews harp projects sound out from the player.

 

Nevertheless, I have thought of one: The upright piano.

Because the player normally sits between the instrument and the audience.

[Old_Squeezer]

Um,... how about a French horn? The bell is not quite aimed at the player, but at least it's aimed backward.

 

And a resonator-less banjo lets more of it's sound at least be muffled by the player. Can you consider that hearing by absorption?

[Mark Evans]

"I'm inclined to take Paul's comments one step further. In my opinion, if the concertina can't be heard in the session, then the session isn't earning its way."

 

I agree also with Jim and Paul. When in the midst of a room full of folks beating themselves and their instrument so hard that you can't hear your lovely little Wheatstone, my advice would be to politely pack away your treasured instrument and get thee hense! On the way out the door observe a bit. See who in the room you might like to make some music with. Get a name and a number (buy em' a pint or a mineral water). Give em' a call and arrange a meet so you can let that Wheatstone sing!

 

I go to "sessions" frequently. Sometimes it's good, magical even. Those evenings I go home inspired and alive. It takes hours to calm down enough for sleep to catch me. On the evenings when a "session" has decended into Bedlam, I say hello to friends, perhaps quaff a pint and withdraw.

 

A Dipper or Suttner? Lovely, but I'd wager it will be years before one might be in your hands and there's much music making to be had between now and then.