SqueezeCat Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Any opinions on whether domed or flat keys are to be preferred on an instrument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Stout Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Any opinions on whether domed or flat keys are to be preferred on an instrument? My twentieth century Wheatstones all have domed keys; my 19th century ones have flat keys. Until you asked the question I hadn't noticed. At least for my playing it doesn't make any difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergus_fiddler Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Honestly, in an instrument over 4,000 quid I wouldn't give a monkey hoot about. Cheers, Fer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dunk Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I think it's down to personal taste rather than one being better than the other. My preference is for short keys with rounded tops and a light action overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Any opinions on whether domed or flat keys are to be preferred on an instrument? Is the choice only binary? Do all "domed" keys have the same profile? But past discussions have shown that it's a matter of personal preference... or lack of preference, as Fergus and Larry have indicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RP3 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 I'm an anglo player so the following comments only reflect my experience with anglos. The shape of button tops seems to vary, and for me it really makes a difference. Some Wheatstones have what looks to be a full curve on the tops of the buttons while early Crabbs and some Jeffries have arched top buttons. Some 30 Button metal buttoned Jeffries did have fully rounded tops while my 28 button Jeffries had flat top bone buttons but those tend to round off over time. My Dipper has almost fully rounded buttons but the button diameter is a bit on the large side. Carroll concertinas have arched top buttons but button diameters are relatively small. I'm sure some of our experts can provide more definitive info on button shapes. With the following, I will probably create a firestorm of criticism, but please read this carefully before you attack. IMHO, the flat or slightly domed buttons are most comfortable because the resistance from the button spring is spread across a larger area of your finger while the fully rounded button tends to create a smaller, concentrated spot of pressure against your finger. For the same reason, smaller diameter buttons like those seen on the 48 button Jeffries and even some of the 38 button Jeffries are even less enjoyable to play regardless of being flat topped or rounded because that same spring resistance is applied to an even smaller area on your finger. For those of you with guitar player fingers, it may not be an issue, but for some (like me), it can really affect the enjoyment of playing. So if you are looking to buy a new (to you) concertina, I would suggest that you try it out before you buy -- not just for the judging the tone and action, but also for playing comfort. What feels fine for a few minutes may become uncomfortable when playing for a long set or session. In fact Dipper allows choice of button diameter and may even let you specify the shape of the button top. It can't hurt to ask. Happy Holidays, Ross Schlabach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boney Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 I'd say flat tops makes it a bit easier to hit more than one note with one finger, but rounded tops make it a little easier to slide a finger from one note to another. I use both techniques on both anglo and duet. The flatter tops also might make it a bit easier to finger some odd combinations (you can press just one corner of the button with the side of a finger), but may make it slightly more likely you'll clip a nearby wrong note when playing quickly. When playing fully chorded music, maybe flatter tops are preferable, but for faster, more linear music, maybe domed tops are better. But the difference is relatively subtle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Johnson Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Any opinions on whether domed or flat keys are to be preferred on an instrument? I make my buttons very slightly domed with the edge of the button being quite rounded. This arrangement spreads the button pressure, allows sliding from one button to another, hitting the same button in quick succession etc. while avoiding the tendency of fingers to slide off a more highly domed button accidentally on occasion or the uncomfortableness of relatively sharp corners. Ross's points are quite sound. You can get used to just about anything though. ( though I am not sure about the really small diameter buttons on some Jeffries. Unless they re really lightly sprung, they can become painful fast.) Dana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Müller Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 ...Is the choice only binary? ... Oh, no - after lots of playing, consideration and thinking, my personal preferences is probably called "domishly flattened". And psst.... don't mention the "D"-word (like in diameter) /Henrik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Oh, no - after lots of playing, consideration and thinking, my personal preferences is probably called "domishly flattened". And would you consider that the ultimate in comfort, or merely the pen-ultimate? And psst.... don't mention the "D"-word (like in diameter) Would a "domed" button of greater than normal breadth be "doomed"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SqueezeCat Posted December 22, 2009 Author Share Posted December 22, 2009 Thanks everyone for the replies. The reason I ask... I have three Anglos, all with rounded buttons, but with slightly different profiles. I tend to find the most rounded buttons can become fatiguing after lengthy play, but do allow easy sliding. Of my boxes, the Wakker W-A4 is towards the least curvy profile. I'm in line for a W-W1, which by default has flat buttons. My guess was that flatter may make for less fatigue for longer playing--perhaps at the expense of easy sliding. The variety of comments from everyone has been very useful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Stout Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I once tried out a baritone EC then for sale at the Button Box which had flat buttons except for the c's, all of which were domed. I think it was a Geuns-Wakker which had been specially ordered that way by its first owner. I suppose it gave a tactile way to identify where you are on the keyboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_boveri Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I'm an anglo player so the following comments only reflect my experience with anglos. The shape of button tops seems to vary, and for me it really makes a difference. Some Wheatstones have what looks to be a full curve on the tops of the buttons while early Crabbs and some Jeffries have arched top buttons. Some 30 Button metal buttoned Jeffries did have fully rounded tops while my 28 button Jeffries had flat top bone buttons but those tend to round off over time. My Dipper has almost fully rounded buttons but the button diameter is a bit on the large side. Carroll concertinas have arched top buttons but button diameters are relatively small. I'm sure some of our experts can provide more definitive info on button shapes. With the following, I will probably create a firestorm of criticism, but please read this carefully before you attack. IMHO, the flat or slightly domed buttons are most comfortable because the resistance from the button spring is spread across a larger area of your finger while the fully rounded button tends to create a smaller, concentrated spot of pressure against your finger. For the same reason, smaller diameter buttons like those seen on the 48 button Jeffries and even some of the 38 button Jeffries are even less enjoyable to play regardless of being flat topped or rounded because that same spring resistance is applied to an even smaller area on your finger. For those of you with guitar player fingers, it may not be an issue, but for some (like me), it can really affect the enjoyment of playing. So if you are looking to buy a new (to you) concertina, I would suggest that you try it out before you buy -- not just for the judging the tone and action, but also for playing comfort. What feels fine for a few minutes may become uncomfortable when playing for a long set or session. In fact Dipper allows choice of button diameter and may even let you specify the shape of the button top. It can't hurt to ask. Happy Holidays, Ross Schlabach ross brings up a good point. but, i like smaller buttons, and the smaller the better. i feel i have better control. but ross is correct, in that it does make a difference, and it is not just cosmetic. the smaller buttons/more rounded buttons take more work to use, in general. however, now when i play more flat/wide buttons, i feel like they are a waste, because i only use the very edge of the buttons anyways, and i feel like it is just more mass to deal with. i prefer long, skinny, and slightly domed buttons. ross is also correct in that they can cause finger discomfort. i spent a week playing a metal-buttoned, 1950's wheatstone that was not so much domed as POINTED. it was very painful by the end of the week. i also do get callouses from buttons on my concertina in general, as no matter what concertina i play, i will go towards the top edge of the button, which means that i PREFER to have a tiny concentrated spot of pressure, rather than spread it out across more of my finger. so, that gives you two different perspectives which point towards the same idea: the more domed and the skinnier the button, the more concentrated the force against your finger, and the more discomfort this may cause. the converse is also true. but now consider that some people prefer to have this discomfort, such as myself, because it can offer advantages in precision. one final thing to keep in mind is that metal buttons will always be an adjustment to anyone, and that most advanced players find this style preferable (though differ on how domed they like the tops) rather than the bone-button style, which is very wide. the button-button style (which is now done with plastic) is much easier to play with, and is just easier overall to play on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kautilya Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 (edited) If one wanted to replace plastic/bone buttons with metal ones where would one find a supplier to buy a batch of newly made ones so they all match -- China? Edited December 24, 2009 by Kautilya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragtimer Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 (edited) Any opinions on whether domed or flat keys are to be preferred on an instrument? I know that I prefer large diameter buttons, to spread the pressure and increase the odds of my finger, especially the little one (pinky) of hitting the button. I also like them down close to the end board, so that a fully depressed button is almost flush with the surface. I hate tall, skinny buttons, having tried to paly a couple of Wheatstone Haydens and being eager to go back to my lowly Stagi. As for domed, I like a flat landing zone, but enough rounded edge that I can slide from one buttton to the next. I've caught myself arranging tunes in such a way that those slides are sometimes necessary. So, lightly domed, or flat with major rounding at hte edges. And keep them low and large! --Mike K. PS: That buggy split overlaid screen is still here! Maybe I should try the backwards compatibility mode in IE8? Edited December 24, 2009 by ragtimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_boveri Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 If one wanted to replace plastic/bone buttons with metal ones where would one find a supplier to buy a batch of newly made ones so they all match -- China? well, you really can't. you'd have to get a new concertina. no matter what you do, there are problems. if you get metal buttons that fit the action board, they are going to be WAY too small for the button openings. so, you could get some new bushing, but i'm not sure how well it would work to have that much bushing. or you could get new ends made for the instrument... anyways, good luck on getting the buttons to match! they do not manufacture all sorts of different sizes of bulk concertina buttons in china. no one has yet placed such an order, and the chinese are unlikely to ever make such a product on their own volition. you would have to get every button custom made by a maker or repairer, and you'd have to probably pay them a lot, as they would probably not think it was worth their time. all in all, i would say just be happy with the buttons you have. i just played a kensington for the first time, and it has plastic buttons, and i would be ecstatic if i had one of those! although i do like me some high-set, skinny and domed metal buttons, i would be very happy to have a nice concertina no matter what shape the buttons were. when considering a concertina to buy, i go after the sound and response of the reeds. when i got on the waiting list for the concertina i have now, i actually did NOT like the buttons or the stretch, but they were my favorite reeds. luckily as the years went on, by the time i got my concertina it just so happened to be that my tastes had changed, and it was a perfect fit all around. if i had made my choice just on how it felt in my hands, i would have waited 4 or 5 years and then possibly ended up being disappointed. i am pretty picky about my instrument, and likewise i am with my buttons, but i will be the first to say that i would never pass up an instrument just because of the buttons. i have played some great jeffries with buttons i absolutely did not prefer, but if i had had the cash on hand, would have bought them in an instant, and would still be playing them to this day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Müller Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 ...And would you consider that the ultimate in comfort, or merely the pen-ultimate? ... Would a "domed" button of greater than normal breadth be "doomed"? ... Re. 1: He, he! - good try. No, the pentops are actually a bit too domed Re. 2: No, it wouldn't, it would be nice (like 6mm) /Henrik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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