Irish Music on Duet Concertinas

[Fergus_fiddler]

Hi everybody.

 

Just at home after the session. I understand all of you, it's 2:00 in the morning and probably there still would be people playing at the session in the pub - it closes at 3:50 -.

 

Please, don't misunderstand me. I LOVE to play irish music - dance and not dance - in a good, relaxed mood; but younger people forces you to play too fast for to be beatiful. I can not complain because I was the same at their age, but sometimes I'd like to play in another way... that only happens when the grumpy old irish men in Madrid join this grumpy old spaniard... Well, stuff enough for another thread!

 

BTW, my Morse sounded lovely tonight, playing a very slow hornpipe. I feel very happy.

 

All the best,

 

Fer

[Daniel Hersh]

I play a couple of Irish harp tunes on the Hayden (Planxty Eleanor Plunkett and Miss Hamilton) but I'm not sure if they count. I've tried some dance tunes and haven't been satisfied with my results, but I haven't been playing Hayden very long yet.

 

But I do know of one Irish dance tune recording played on a duet! Here's Paul McCann, recorded by Paul Hardy, playing Rodney's Glory (a set dance) and Morrison's Jig. I believe that he's playing a Crane.

 

After so many discussions about Irish music being played on English Concertina, I would be interested to know how many people are playing Irish music on their Duet Concertinas?

[michael sam wild]

I play a couple of Irish harp tunes on the Hayden (Planxty Eleanor Plunkett and Miss Hamilton) but I'm not sure if they count. I've tried some dance tunes and haven't been satisfied with my results, but I haven't been playing Hayden very long yet.

 

But I do know of one Irish dance tune recording played on a duet! Here's Paul McCann, recorded by Paul Hardy, playing Rodney's Glory (a set dance) and Morrison's Jig. I believe that he's playing a Crane.

 

After so many discussions about Irish music being played on English Concertina, I would be interested to know how many people are playing Irish music on their Duet Concertinas?

 

The slow one was nice but I don't think the heavy chords added anything to Morrison's , it falls into the trap of melodeon players or thrash guitarists with bass /chords wrecking nice melodic tunes

Edited December 21, 2009 by michael sam wild

[Marien]

True, sometimes when there is a lot of PSSSST going around maybe 12 of those 15 people are willing to listen at least at the beginning of the slow air...

 

...You can not play a slow air with 15 people (well you can, but it will not sound nice ...). If there's a singer people have to stop playing and listen, my god what a waste of time (we could have played another set of reels instead...). I prefer sessions were a bit of everything happens, and from time to time such a session comes along, and some of them were moments of pure bliss to me

[Marien]

So, am I to assume the Maccann is not a duet ???

 

Who told you that?

[Daniel Hersh]

I play a couple of Irish harp tunes on the Hayden (Planxty Eleanor Plunkett and Miss Hamilton) but I'm not sure if they count. I've tried some dance tunes and haven't been satisfied with my results, but I haven't been playing Hayden very long yet.

 

But I do know of one Irish dance tune recording played on a duet! Here's Paul McCann, recorded by Paul Hardy, playing Rodney's Glory (a set dance) and Morrison's Jig. I believe that he's playing a Crane.

After so many discussions about Irish music being played on English Concertina, I would be interested to know how many people are playing Irish music on their Duet Concertinas?

 

 

The slow one was nice but i don't think the heavy chords added anything to Morrison's falls into the trap of melodeon players or thrash guitarists with bass /chords nice melodic tunes

 

I know what you mean...but I think that this helps explain why we don't hear more Irish dance tunes played on duet. The appeal of the duet is that it makes complex accompaniment possible, but that's not what most people who play Irish tunes want to accomplish.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Daniel Hersh

[Alan Day]

A new recording of Nick I havn't heard and the first recording I have heard of Paul McCann many thanks for posting them.

I notice that many young players of the concertina are adding chord accompaniment and I see nothing wrong in this trend. It is another way of presenting Irish Traditional music and it is how many players have presented their music with chords supplied by others on various instruments. For purists certain styles are the rule, but who makes the rules? The Anglo is fairly new to ITM .

Stephen Chambers will remember well Paul Davis who surprised many in Ireland by his chord accompaniment. It is just waiting for an Anglo, English or Duet player to astound everybody with what can be achieved on the instrument.

I have listened to a few recordings in the past of chords added for embellishment by Irish players, I just wish they had learnt where the minor chords were on some of the tunes I heard.

Al

[David Levine]

...there is more in life than ITM sessions in pubs. In pub sessions in Ireland you´ll generally not hear real dance music - polkas and reels tend to get played too fast for dancing in pubs.

Aside from being a gross generalization you've probably been in the wrong pubs, my friend. I don't know if there is such a thing as "real dance music," as distinct from just plain old dance music. In fact, dance music is most often very fast indeed. I have no idea what you mean by "there is more in life than ITM sessions in pubs." Of course there is. But some very fine music is played in pubs, and of course some not so fine music. But neither the dance itself, nor pub sessions, will define what Irish music is.

 

Playing an Irish tune only means that you're playing an Irish tune. It does not make you an Irish musician. I might play a piece by Bach on my fiddle but I am light years away from being a classical player trained in the genre.Big Nick was a lovely player but he was not an Irish musician. I won't comment on the other tunes offered in this thread.

 

Al, I don't know what you mean by saying "The Anglo is fairly new to ITM ." The Anglo has been around for at least 100 years. I don't think that the Duet or the English will ever achieve a place in the tradition as more than an instrument that is capable of playing an Irish tune on... maybe like a saxophone or a cello. I don't know why players of Duets would want to convince people that they can play Irish music on their instrument, when in fact they don't - except for the occasional Irish tune. They only play the odd Irish tune, in amongst tunes from other genres. The Irish musicians I know who play other genres of music have come to those other genres after a solid grounding within the Irish tradition. Irish music is so demanding that there isn't a lot of room left in one mortal lifetime to become solidly grounded in another tradition. You can be a dilettante in many genres but only an adept in one.

[billybunterr]

The Irish musicians I know who play other genres of music have come to those other genres after a solid grounding within the Irish tradition. Irish music is so demanding that there isn't a lot of room left in one mortal lifetime to become solidly grounded in another tradition. You can be a dilettante in many genres but only an adept in one.

Zoey Conway playing the Contradiction reel, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u_yeTX92rM, and here she plays in the style of Stephane Grappeli,

she manages to play both well.

[Marien]

...there is more in life than ITM sessions in pubs. In pub sessions in Ireland you´ll generally not hear real dance music - polkas and reels tend to get played too fast for dancing in pubs.

Aside from being a gross generalization you've probably been in the wrong pubs, my friend. I don't know if there is such a thing as "real dance music," as distinct from just plain old dance music. In fact, dance music is most often very fast indeed. I have no idea what you mean by "there is more in life than ITM sessions in pubs." Of course there is. But some very fine music is played in pubs, and of course some not so fine music. But neither the dance itself, nor pub sessions, will define what Irish music is.

 

Of course I sometimes was a wrong pub, sometimes because tear jerker songs came up and were joined too loudly by alcosingers. But that is something else.

 

I just meant that a lot of very nice ITM music is played outside pubs.

 

I´ll not mention names of the `wrong` pubs I have been playing sessions in Ireland but to my idea most of the pubs are good. In Dublin there are a couple that can be qualified as too crowdy at some times (too many tourists). Hughes and the Cobblestones were fine (but it´s a couple of years ago) and I prefer going out of the big towns and find fine sessions in the country with less audience and a nicer setting with less noise. Most of the pubs in Ennis and Cork I have been playing have very nice sessions - it also depends on the time of the year and the day of the week. Still - when a hornpipe is played it is mostly faster (and I agree - why not?) than the dancers would need. You will not hear me say that the dancing should prescribe how the music should be played.

 

Overhere on the continent I like to play in small theatres where people come too listen and they keep quiet. It makes it possible to play slow airs and other things that would not succeed in a bigger pub session with lots of guitar players in the waiting cue.

 

Back to the topic: Irish on a Duet. It is true Big Nick is a player in the English Morris tradition rather than an ITM player. So I guess I´ll have to find a better example for real ITM on a Duet. Seek seek...

 

Cheers,

Marien

[Alan Day]

...there is more in life than ITM sessions in pubs. In pub sessions in Ireland you´ll generally not hear real dance music - polkas and reels tend to get played too fast for dancing in pubs.

Aside from being a gross generalization you've probably been in the wrong pubs, my friend. I don't know if there is such a thing as "real dance music," as distinct from just plain old dance music. In fact, dance music is most often very fast indeed. I have no idea what you mean by "there is more in life than ITM sessions in pubs." Of course there is. But some very fine music is played in pubs, and of course some not so fine music. But neither the dance itself, nor pub sessions, will define what Irish music is.

 

Playing an Irish tune only means that you're playing an Irish tune. It does not make you an Irish musician. I might play a piece by Bach on my fiddle but I am light years away from being a classical player trained in the genre.Big Nick was a lovely player but he was not an Irish musician. I won't comment on the other tunes offered in this thread.

 

Al, I don't know what you mean by saying "The Anglo is fairly new to ITM ." The Anglo has been around for at least 100 years. I don't think that the Duet or the English will ever achieve a place in the tradition as more than an instrument that is capable of playing an Irish tune on... maybe like a saxophone or a cello. I don't know why players of Duets would want to convince people that they can play Irish music on their instrument, when in fact they don't - except for the occasional Irish tune. They only play the odd Irish tune, in amongst tunes from other genres. The Irish musicians I know who play other genres of music have come to those other genres after a solid grounding within the Irish tradition. Irish music is so demanding that there isn't a lot of room left in one mortal lifetime to become solidly grounded in another tradition. You can be a dilettante in many genres but only an adept in one.

I take your point David and we are not going to fall out over it, but you have to leave the door open and encourage anyone who wants to have a go at it. The Duet is quite capable of of playing Irish Music and with the same punch as the Anglo. The fact that no one has achieved it yet (I think) does not mean at some point in the future someone will achieve it and with possible chord arrangements.

Al

[david_boveri]

The Irish musicians I know who play other genres of music have come to those other genres after a solid grounding within the Irish tradition. Irish music is so demanding that there isn't a lot of room left in one mortal lifetime to become solidly grounded in another tradition. You can be a dilettante in many genres but only an adept in one.

Zoey Conway playing the Contradiction reel, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u_yeTX92rM, and here she plays in the style of Stephane Grappeli,

she manages to play both well.

 

i thought she played the second better...

 

although i do not favor such blanket statements, david is mostly right. notice you don't see tom doorley playing classical music at top venues all over the world (even though he is classically trained). i cannot think of many people who are internationally renowned irish musicians who are renowned in separate genres. any of the ones i can think of have irish music as their main genre, and go to other genres as crossover. for example, chris norman does play classical music, but he is most well known for his irish music. classical musicians, for example, do not know him for his classical music, but for his cross-over compilation albums (many classical flute players DO know who he is). in other words, i do not think that if chris norman did an entirely classical repertoire for a few years, that he would be touring the main concert halls in the world. his brilliance in classical music is that he took the irish flute playing technique and reapplied it back to classical music (from where it derives), to reconstruct some of the old, british-school playing techniques.

 

sir james galway is another example... amazing classical music, plays irish tunes, but not an irish musician (he wants to learn irish music, but has not yet devoted the time to it). joanie madden plays the boehm flute, but yet i have never heard of her doing an entire tour of classical music, have you (i'm not sure she can even play classical music, as it is my understanding she learned the flute for irish music)? so, david's generalization is true as i can tell. joanie and others have mastered the silver flute in irish music, but it is not a mainstay of the tradition simply because there are very few musicians devoting their entire lives to irish music on the silver flute. likewise, the pool of duet players devoting their lives entirely to irish music is far and few between.

 

i can think of many crossover musicians from classical into pop or rock or jazz, but that is different, as those genres are very intertwined. nina simone is a perfect example... classically trained, but only known for her blues/jazz/pop-esque pieces. it is very difficult to devote yourself to mastery of more than one genre, and it is even more rare to be well known across multiple genres completely independent of the other. paul mccartney has written choral works--have you ever heard them? probably not. although, i actually prefer leonard bernstein's avant-garde and experimental works to his more well-known works ("maria, i just met a girl named maria!"), but that again proves my point that genre spanning is very difficult to do in any meaningful and impactful manner.

Edited December 21, 2009 by david_boveri

[RatFace]

proves my point that genre spanning is very difficult to do in any meaningful and impactful manner.

 

But what has that got to do with playing Irish music on the duet?

 

What is the current world population of duet players who play "some" Irish tunes? Perhaps 50... well if you took 50 random (from the world population) amateur fiddlers who play at least a few Irish tunes, you'd perhaps reach the conclusion that Irish music can't be played on the fiddle either. Probably the same conclusion if you took a random sample of Anglo players too.

 

Also, the question isn't whether the duet can play Irish music in the same style as an Anglo concertina - it's whether it can play music that fits in the landscape of Irish music played on the Anglo concertina, whistle, fiddle, harp, button box, pipes etc. It's also not a question about whether it is or ever will be a significant part of that landscape.

 

Edit: Actually, reading the original post, I realise the question was more "who is" than anything else... but there's an implied question there about the suitability!

Edited December 21, 2009 by RatFace

[Marien]

Another question is whether an anglo is more suitable than one of the Duet systems. I am not sure about that. It depends on the tune. The key layout of a Duet has other constraints than an anglo. Some tunes are difficult on a Duet where they seem to fall in to place on an anglo conertina.

 

For example, try it to play "master crawleys" in the scale of E flat. It is relatively easy to play on a GD anglo. I tried some different concertinas today and it is almost as easy on a Crane Duet. Same for MacCann (If you play MacCann better than I do) and I assume that it will be similar for Hayden and Jeffries duets. In fact it is easier to play on the Duets than on a CG anglo. But this will be different for other tunes of course...

 

About adding chords - what to say about this:

- Irish music is essentially modal - based on melody rather than on chords.

- Many tunes do not need chords, maybe just a few low octave accents will do.

- When a guitar player plays the wrong chord in an ITM session, guess what will happen?

[michael sam wild]

A new recording of Nick I havn't heard and the first recording I have heard of Paul McCann many thanks for posting them.

I notice that many young players of the concertina are adding chord accompaniment and I see nothing wrong in this trend. It is another way of presenting Irish Traditional music and it is how many players have presented their music with chords supplied by others on various instruments. For purists certain styles are the rule, but who makes the rules? The Anglo is fairly new to ITM .

Stephen Chambers will remember well Paul Davis who surprised many in Ireland by his chord accompaniment. It is just waiting for an Anglo, English or Duet player to astound everybody with what can be achieved on the instrument.

I have listened to a few recordings in the past of chords added for embellishment by Irish players, I just wish they had learnt where the minor chords were on some of the tunes I heard.

Al

 

 

Al

 

I think the same applied to the button accordion(melodeon) when introduced players tended to use the bass end only for odd jabs, mainly because they were playing fast. tony Mcmahon , Jackie Daly etc used nice chords on airs and now there are players who are doing some tasteful chords which have become a accepted.

 

The same seems to be happening with anglo, M o'R, P Rynne, Noel Hill et al.

 

I think your comment on minor chords is interesting as missing out the 3rd allows that ambiguous 'modal' sound that is often generated when people play in unison. I liken that to a small flock of bids who fly their own path but touch occasionally

 

in such playing you are not seeking blocky chords , in fact they get in the way. ( lots of other discussion elsewhere on this issue)

Cheers

Mike

 

PS Jon Boden is doing some nice tunes on a small Maccann that I think could point a way in this area. He plays mainly old English fiddle tunes but the feel is there ( I don't know if they are recorded but I hear him at the Royal, Dungworth)

[Alan Day]

A new recording of Nick I havn't heard and the first recording I have heard of Paul McCann many thanks for posting them.

I notice that many young players of the concertina are adding chord accompaniment and I see nothing wrong in this trend. It is another way of presenting Irish Traditional music and it is how many players have presented their music with chords supplied by others on various instruments. For purists certain styles are the rule, but who makes the rules? The Anglo is fairly new to ITM .

Stephen Chambers will remember well Paul Davis who surprised many in Ireland by his chord accompaniment. It is just waiting for an Anglo, English or Duet player to astound everybody with what can be achieved on the instrument.

I have listened to a few recordings in the past of chords added for embellishment by Irish players, I just wish they had learnt where the minor chords were on some of the tunes I heard.

Al

 

 

Al

 

I think the same applied to the button accordion(melodeon) when introduced players tended to use the bass end only for odd jabs, mainly because they were playing fast. tony Mcmahon , Jackie Daly etc used nice chords on airs and now there are players who are doing some tasteful chords which have become a accepted.

 

The same seems to be happening with anglo, M o'R, P Rynne, Noel Hill et al.

 

REPLY

There are most playing alongside other musicians who are putting in chords. The Piano Vamp is almost as traditional as the Anglo. I personally hate it, but it is a tradition.

 

I think your comment on minor chords is interesting as missing out the 3rd allows that ambiguous 'modal' sound that is often generated when people play in unison. I liken that to a small flock of bids who fly their own path but touch occasionally

 

REPLY

Very poetic Michael, Doves perhaps as a Xmas truce

 

in such playing you are not seeking blocky chords , in fact they get in the way. ( lots of other discussion elsewhere on this issue)

Cheers

Mike

 

PS Jon Boden is doing some nice tunes on a small Maccann that I think could point a way in this area. He plays mainly old English fiddle tunes but the feel is there ( I don't know if they are recorded but I hear him at the Royal, Dungworth)

 

 

 

 

REPLY

John has agreed to do some recordings for me but looks very busy at the moment.

I feel an Irish tune with chords coming on. That will stir things up a bit. After Xmas however . Do not forget the mixed everything goes session in the trenches on Xmas Day.

Al (who actually loves Irish Traditional Folk Music)

Edited December 21, 2009 by Alan Day

[david_boveri]

A new recording of Nick I havn't heard and the first recording I have heard of Paul McCann many thanks for posting them.

I notice that many young players of the concertina are adding chord accompaniment and I see nothing wrong in this trend. It is another way of presenting Irish Traditional music and it is how many players have presented their music with chords supplied by others on various instruments. For purists certain styles are the rule, but who makes the rules? The Anglo is fairly new to ITM .

Stephen Chambers will remember well Paul Davis who surprised many in Ireland by his chord accompaniment. It is just waiting for an Anglo, English or Duet player to astound everybody with what can be achieved on the instrument.

I have listened to a few recordings in the past of chords added for embellishment by Irish players, I just wish they had learnt where the minor chords were on some of the tunes I heard.

Al

 

 

Al

 

I think the same applied to the button accordion(melodeon) when introduced players tended to use the bass end only for odd jabs, mainly because they were playing fast. tony Mcmahon , Jackie Daly etc used nice chords on airs and now there are players who are doing some tasteful chords which have become a accepted.

 

The same seems to be happening with anglo, M o'R, P Rynne, Noel Hill et al.

 

I think your comment on minor chords is interesting as missing out the 3rd allows that ambiguous 'modal' sound that is often generated when people play in unison. I liken that to a small flock of bids who fly their own path but touch occasionally

 

in such playing you are not seeking blocky chords , in fact they get in the way. ( lots of other discussion elsewhere on this issue)

Cheers

Mike

 

PS Jon Boden is doing some nice tunes on a small Maccann that I think could point a way in this area. He plays mainly old English fiddle tunes but the feel is there ( I don't know if they are recorded but I hear him at the Royal, Dungworth)

 

in response to chords and noel hill: i heard him play a polka last year with ALL the chords he could manage. this was a totally different beast than what we are used to hearing from him, and much different than we would normally hear him play that same tune. he was doing it to be funny, but it illustrated something i wasnt expecting: he usually does about 5% the chords in a tune compared to what he could easily do. if that's not tasteful moderation, i don't know what is...

 

i do think that the chording capabilities of a duet would be welcome for any anglo player of irish music. think of the piano--i love a good irish piano player. they don't use the instrument the same as a classical pianist, but they definitely use chords as a rule and not an exception.

[inventor]

[ileft][/left]