English Layout

[Steven]

The reason I'm asking if there's a standard is that there seem to be two diametrically opposed standards, but everyone seems to think there's just one. Here's the story:

 

I started on a Bastari 43-key English. On this concertina, all the notes that fall on the lines on the staff are on the left, and all the spaces are on the right. Fine. The description of the keyboard layout at Don Nichols' site (here) says that this is how it is on an English concertina. Period.

 

So then I bought a 48-key Lachenal. On this concertina, all the lines are on the right, and the spaces are on the left -- just the opposite of the other one. This confused me. All the tunes I had committed to muscle memory on the other one were now useless. I mentioned this on Saturday to Rachel Hall, who is a professional English concertina player (formerly with Broadside Electric, now with Simple Gifts), and she said she had never heard of such a thing. She referred to it as being "backwards from everyone else." This concerned me a bit, so I decided to do some research on the internet. I did a Google search for English concertina.

 

One article I found right here on Concertina.net (which can be found here) shows the chord relationships on an English, and it clearly shows the buttons the way they are on my Lachenal.

 

Another site that shows the keyboard layout also has it the same way as on my Lachenal.

 

Finally, I found a site with pictures of the concertinas owned by the site owner (Paul Hardy -- I believe he hangs out here sometimes?), and it showed pictures of two trebles that have the bone buttons with the Cs in red. This allows you to see that both of these concertinas also have the same layout as my Lachenal. One is a Wheatstone and the other is a Lachenal.

 

OK, so what's the deal here? It clearly is not always one way or the other. How did this come about, and why does nobody seem to talk about it (or even know about it)? This would seem to be a major issue whenever you want to buy a new concertina, because you'd have to make sure it had the same layout as you're used to, or else you'd have to unlearn and relearn everything, as I'm having to do now (unless you're a fabulous musician, which I'm not).

 

Any help or insight that you folks could provide would be most gratefully appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Steven

Edited May 6, 2004 by Steven

[Guest Guest]

So then I bought a 48-key Lachenal. On this concertina, all the lines are on the right, and the spaces are on the left -- just the opposite of the other one.

I'm confused.

 

I read and re-read this post and went to the sites, looked at the images.

 

If the particular images DO match up with your 48-key Lachenal, as you say they do, then, I don't understand how the lines are all on the right, etc....in other words, I don't see that it's backwards.

 

The images seem to match up the same as they would for the other one. I don't get this at all....shall be interesting to follow this thread.

[bellowbelle]

oops, the above post was from me. I thought I would be asked for my login info, but it put me through as 'Guest.'

 

Sorry.

 

It was:

 

So then I bought a 48-key Lachenal.  On this concertina, all the lines are on the right, and the spaces are on the left -- just the opposite of the other one.

I'm confused.

 

I read and re-read this post and went to the sites, looked at the images.

 

If the particular images DO match up with your 48-key Lachenal, as you say they do, then, I don't understand how the lines are all on the right, etc....in other words, I don't see that it's backwards.

 

The images seem to match up the same as they would for the other one. I don't get this at all....shall be interesting to follow this thread.

Edited May 6, 2004 by bellowbelle

[JimLucas]

Steven, you are confused. The layouts and photos on the links you posted all match each other and all match the standard layout, shared by all the treble instruments I've seen. If they match your own instrument, then yours is standard, and the lines are in the left hand.

 

While I have heard rumors of mirrored instruments, I've never seen one, and they are extremely rare (maybe 1 in 10,00 instruments; maybe not even that many). They are custom instruments, and in no way could be considered an alternate "standard".

 

There is a common exception to this rule: Standard baritones sound an octave lower than the treble for the same fingering, and consequently have the lines in the right hand and the spaces in the left. (As you shift from one octave to the next, the notes alternate between lines and spaces... and of course alternate ends of the instrument on an English concertina.)

[Steven]

OK, maybe I'm missing something here. Let me be more specific. The D that's the second line from the top of the staff (the "does" in "every good boy does fine") -- that button is on the right. It's the second from the top, middle finger. The C immediately below that (the "C" in "FACE") is on the left. The D that's just below the bottom of the staff is on the left. Doesn't that mean I have lines on the right and spaces on the left? Maybe I'm an octave off, but those are the same notes as on my flute and my wife's fiddle, so I don't think so. What have I got wrong here? (Oh, and the exact same notes are still reversed on the Bastari. That might be a factor of it only having 43 buttons, and not going down quite as far -- only to the B-- so the lowest note is still in the same place but is a different note.)

 

???

Steven

 

Edit: Sorry, I forgot to thank you both for your help. I really do appreciate it, because I really do want to get this figured out so I can move forward with my music!

Edited May 6, 2004 by Steven

[sourdoh]

The D that's the second line from the top of the staff (the "does" in "every good boy does fine") -- that button is on the right. It's the second from the top, middle finger.

 

If this D is this far up the buttons, it sounds to me like you have a baritone. On my treble this button gives the D above the staff. You might try playing your lowest G (bottom button on the right hand) and compare that to your wife's lowest string. If it's an octave lower you have a baritone.

 

Just an early morning suggestion.

 

-Keith

[Steven]

OK, so I did some more messing around last night, and now I feel pretty dumb. Basically, I have indeed been playing everything up an octave, in the range of a whistle rather than a flute, but had managed to confuse myself into thinking the opposite. I did manage to reconstruct in my little brain how this came about. See, the Bastari I started on truly is backwards. There's no doubt of that now. Problem is, I didn't realize that at the time. I just knew that lines were supposed to be on the left and spaces on the right. So, I looked for a C that was on the right, and assumed that was the one near the middle of the staff (the C in FACE). Then, on the new one, I assumed that I should be looking at it from the perspective of that same C. I did check against a whistle last night and confirmed that I was indeed playing in the same range as that. One of my bosses (the guy 2 levels up from me) likes to say "assume makes an ass out of u and me." I frequently want to smack him when he says it, but in this case it's pretty much right. Sigh!

 

So, now I'm back to doing some relearning, but mostly by having to shift everything down a couple of rows from where I thought it was. I'm probably going to have to either shift my hand position some or do some stretching and strengthening exercises too, or I'm going to end up with a lot of cramps from trying to reach farther down between my thumb and pinky than I've been doing.

 

But at least I'm straightened out now (I think, I hope)! Thanks so much for all your help -- now I can start out right without wasting any more time on the mistakes I was making.

 

Steven