Titanium reed shoes vs Brass and Alluminium

[ben]

I understand that Wally Carroll is using reed shoes made from titanium. Does this metal influence the sound of the reeds or is it main feature being lighter in weight than brass shoes?

[m3838]

I understand that Wally Carroll is using reed shoes made from titanium. Does this metal influence the sound of the reeds or is it main feature being lighter in weight than brass shoes?

Here's the guy, whose accordion is Russian Bayan style Pigini, with Russian made reeds, but italian made Titanium reed plates. He paid $30K 10 years ago.

[Stephen Chambers]

I understand that Wally Carroll is using reed shoes made from titanium. Does this metal influence the sound of the reeds or is it main feature being lighter in weight than brass shoes?

Apparently his recently finished, smaller-sized instrument #45 has them, and he says this "makes the instrument lighter". Only it's probably a first in concertina making...

[Henrik Müller]

My gut feeling says that that there isn't any difference.

 

 

The purpose of the reed shoe is to provide a strong acoustic coupling to the reedpan.

Whatever (tiny) differences there might be will drown in the surrounding environment:

reedpan, chambers, the coupling to the end box, etc, etc.

 

But it will be darned light... 45% lighter than steel

 

A 250 x 250 x 2 mm sheet costs £122. That yields 150 low G frames, 81p a piece.

 

But then you have to make them...

 

/Henrik

[david_boveri]

it is my understanding that the titanium reed shoes do not change the sound of the instrument, but only make it lighter. the reason that they are preferable over aluminum is that they are more durable and not prone to oxidization. and it's really cool to say that your concertina has "titanium reed shoes."

 

carroll concertinas has made at least one more set of titanium reed shoes before, but on a prototype instrument, in the personal collection of the company. i have played this instrument. it was a great instrument. i thought it was incredibly fast for a Bb/F, but wally carroll said it had nothing to do with the titanium reeds. i'd love to do a reed shoe swap out myself, to objectively determine what difference they might make, but personally i don't believe they really change the sound at all.

 

@henrik: making them at carroll concertinas isn't a problem, as they have crazy-cool machines to cut them.

[Johann]

...

@henrik: making them at carroll concertinas isn't a problem, as they have crazy-cool machines to cut them.

 

Interesting would be to see complete reeds made by titanium.

I have made single reeds with titanium reed tongues, and the resulting sound is very soft and interesting.

 

Titanium comes in a lot of different alloys, so it is also a main question with alloy is used.

 

Best regards, Johann Pascher

[Frank Edgley]

"it is my understanding that the titanium reed shoes do not change the sound of the instrument, but only make it lighter. the reason that they are preferable over aluminum is that they are more durable and not prone to oxidization..."

 

I'm not sure that oxidization is a big worry. Colin Dipper has used aluminium in some of his concertinas for years. If it were a big concern, then I think we would have heard about accordions having this problem. Perhaps it happens if they are not stored in a suitable manner. I have repaired a few vintage (50's?) instruments with them, with no signs of significant problems. But I agree that they evoke a certain curiosity factor, but that may be the biggest effect of this experiment.

[Johann]

Hi, i have seen very bad aluminum reed frames, but usual this is not a big problem, thats true.

 

Still i would think other reasons would count more for using titanium alloys for reed frames and tongues.

 

If anyone can afford to get a such a reed set made for him, pleas do it, i don't think it is not worth taking the effort, but for the tongues it will be difficult to find the right alloy with the affordable spring elastic module. Dimension for reeds would differ a bit as well because the stiffness is not comparable to steel or brass.

 

Having tongues and frame made from the same material would eliminate the difference in temperature dependent differences between tongue and frame.

Higher precision fittings would be possible, or even produce frame an tongue by modern machinery in one part without the need screwing and adjusting tongue position.

 

Just my personal opinion, but thick about it.

 

Best regards, Johann Pascher

[Wally Carroll]

The initial reason why I experimented with creating titanium reed shoes was for reducing the weight of the instrument. I chose titanium over aluminum for several reasons: 1) titanium is stronger than aluminum and is less likely to deflect into the reed tongue with changes in humidity, 2) the strength of the material also allows a tighter fit into the reedpan which gives stronger sounding notes, 3) titanium is more easily machined with the specific type of process that I use to create the shoes, and 4) aluminum is unpleasant to work with (very gummy).

 

Regarding tone: we have now made two instrument with titanium shoes, and to me, they sound the same as brass shoes, however, the titanium instruments are noticeably lighter thereby making them easier to handle.

 

I am still working out whether this will be offered as an option and at what price. Titanium is significantly more expensive than brass and the machining time is also much greater.

 

-Wally

[Chris Ghent]

Problems with corrosion of aluminium frames have a historical perspective. At the time of the initial use of aluminium it was a rare and prized metal. What was available tended towards the pure and therefore was soft aluminium. This is more susceptable to corrosion. When the first alloy appeared one of qualities it exhibited was hardness. It was marketed as Duralium to create a different perception of it from ordinary aluminium. Today duralium has disappeared into the myriad of aluminium alloys available. I'm sure in there somewhere would be one which was machinable, resistant to corrosion and hard. Perhaps not so strong however, and therefore less resistant to force, one of the reasons Wally indicated he chose titanium.

 

The availabilty of so many alloys of aluminium means if the right choice was made, aluminium frames made in the modern era can be expected to last the distance, and no-one will experience the disappointment of opening up an otherwise OK looking concertina and finding the frames near to dust.

 

Chris

[Johann]

Hi Chris Ghent and Wally,

 

Interesting to read this arguments, and i agree with everything mentioned.

 

Still i would like to see reeds with titanium frames and even with titanium tongues.

 

Johann

[Wally Carroll]

Hi Chris Ghent and Wally,

 

Interesting to read this arguments, and i agree with everything mentioned.

 

Still i would like to see reeds with titanium frames and even with titanium tongues.

 

Johann

 

Johann,

Two factors immediately come to mind that would make it difficult to create titanium tongues. The first is finding sheet stock in the appropriate thicknesses that is also of the correct spring temper. I know that there are titanium springs so it should be theoretically possible to create such sheets - I just don't know if it is being done. Second, as far as my process is concerned, the material would need to be magnetic in order to attach it to the magnetic chuck on the surface grinder that is used to grind the profiles on the tongues. I believe that titanium can be slightly magnetic depending on the particular alloy used, but the stuff I use for the shoes, definitely is not and I'm not sure if the other alloys would be magnetic enough to stay on the chuck while the material is being ground. The tongues could of course be hand filed to the correct profile, but the material is pretty hard on files.

 

For me, I'm not sure that any advantage in weight savings (which would be sleight) or in the material not being susceptible to rusting would be significant enough to make the experiment worthwhile.

 

Wally

[Jim Besser]

For me, I'm not sure that any advantage in weight savings (which would be sleight) or in the material not being susceptible to rusting would be significant enough to make the experiment worthwhile.

 

 

Slightly off topic, but...Wally, your small concertina is the most gorgeous instrument I've ever seen. And I'm sure it sounds as good as it looks.

[Johann]

 

Hi Wally,

 

"Two factors immediately come to mind that would make it difficult to create titanium tongues. The first is finding sheet stock in the appropriate thicknesses that is also of the correct spring temper."

 

Yes of course, that is one of the biggest problem, i used spring wire witch i punched down to a tape, and flied the few tongues by hand.

 

"Second, as far as my process is concerned, the material would need to be magnetic in order to attach it to the magnetic chuck on the surface grinder that is used to grind the profiles on the tongues."

 

The alloy i used is not magnetic at all.

 

"The tongues could of course be hand filed to the correct profile, but the material is pretty hard on files."

 

Yes also true, my idea would be to mill the frame and the tongue in one part, my be with spark eroding.

 

"For me, I'm not sure that any advantage in weight savings (which would be sleight) or in the material not being susceptible to rusting would be significant enough to make the experiment worthwhile."

 

Yes also true, that is way i did not spend a lot money on it.

[Dana Johnson]

 

Hi Wally,

 

"Two factors immediately come to mind that would make it difficult to create titanium tongues. The first is finding sheet stock in the appropriate thicknesses that is also of the correct spring temper."

 

Yes of course, that is one of the biggest problem, i used spring wire witch i punched down to a tape, and flied the few tongues by hand.

 

"Second, as far as my process is concerned, the material would need to be magnetic in order to attach it to the magnetic chuck on the surface grinder that is used to grind the profiles on the tongues."

 

The alloy i used is not magnetic at all.

 

"The tongues could of course be hand filed to the correct profile, but the material is pretty hard on files."

 

Yes also true, my idea would be to mill the frame and the tongue in one part, my be with spark eroding.

 

"For me, I'm not sure that any advantage in weight savings (which would be sleight) or in the material not being susceptible to rusting would be significant enough to make the experiment worthwhile."

 

Yes also true, that is way i did not spend a lot money on it.

 

Titanium and a number of it's alloys are fairly notch sensitive. Even small scratches can substantially reduce it's fatigue life. Grinding or filing reeds across the reed seems like it is setting you up for a reed to fail after a relatively short time in comparison with steel. The weight difference to the instrument for the tongues alone can't be an issue. I find it interesting that the elasticity of titanium and it's alloys is the same as for brass, but the lightness in comparison with brass counteracts that as far as the reed pitch goes, allowing reeds more similar in size to steel reeds for the same pitches, but perhaps with a tone closer to brass. Now if you could polish out the profiling scratches and tune the reeds in the lengthwise direction, you might have something interesting!

Dana

[Marien]

Another factor for titanic tongues concerns the stiffness. I would expect more a brass tongue sound than a steel tongue sound. I still wonder how such a titanium tongue really sounds.

 

But why not make a concertina with titanic levers as well? How about titanium metal ends, titanium buttons. It sounds weird but I think that all parts (except the flexible parts of the bellows, bushings and soft parts of pads and valves) could be titanium.

 

Maybe we should arrange an award for building the lightest 30b anglo concertina that plays okay.

[Marien]

Here's the guy, whose accordion is Russian Bayan style Pigini, with Russian made reeds, but italian made Titanium reed plates. He paid $30K 10 years ago.

 

The $ sign, does it indicate mexican pesos or US dollars? Ummeeeeh... never mind they are almost the same value these days...

 

But serious, that´s good music and a really nice sounding accordion!

[d.elliott]

"it is my understanding that the titanium reed shoes do not change the sound of the instrument, but only make it lighter. the reason that they are preferable over aluminum is that they are more durable and not prone to oxidization..."

 

I'm not sure that oxidization is a big worry. Colin Dipper has used aluminium in some of his concertinas for years. If it were a big concern, then I think we would have heard about accordions having this problem. Perhaps it happens if they are not stored in a suitable manner. I have repaired a few vintage (50's?) instruments with them, with no signs of significant problems. But I agree that they evoke a certain curiosity factor, but that may be the biggest effect of this experiment.

 

 

I think this is possibly a climate or care issue? I have repaired several aluminium framed instruments over the years, all have had some form of oxidisation, most of which was maneagable, but two instruments were scrapped as the aluminium had corroded through and collapsed. The problem with aluminium oxide is that it is hard and it adds a significant layer to the ali substrate. This closes up the reed tongue flank and tip clearances causing fouling.

 

Maybe the modern alloys are less prone to this? I don't know, but old instruments with ali reed frames need careful inspection prior to purchase.

 

Dave E