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Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D for ITM?


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I agree about a good new player using G/D. The same thing happened on box when Jackie Daly and Maitin O'Connor played other boxes than the 'standard' B/C Paolos etc.

Tim Edey is doing the same thing on D/G melodeon I reckon. I don't think chording opportunities are the issue I think it's best kept minimal with broken chords and some drones and little 'bass' certainly not oompah! Until I hear a player who can accompany like an understated bouzouki or guitar i'll need convincing. I quite like piano accompaniment to ITM but there aren't many IMHO who do it sensitively

 

It (G/D) would open peoples ears if it were good

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True -- and the G/D, unlike the 30-button C/G, also has the low F# in both directions.

 

I think that you will probably do ok with either a C/G or a G/D. Your best bet in making a decision might be to try to get the opportunity to try both out, though I realize that geography may make that difficult for you.

 

Thanks for your input Daniel. My decision is becoming difficult :)

This "strong fingers" thing might be an issue... but on the other hand we have our fingers in a fixed place (almost) all the time.

True about that high A. But instead we would have the low E on the pull... which we don't have in the C/G, do we?

 

Yes, geography is a problem for me. But I have a cheap C/G at home and I can practice both systems in it alone to help with my decision.

Thanks for all the info!

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I play ITM on a G/D concertina. I'm very much the learner, but I chose G/D because of some physical limitations I have with the left hand; it's an advantage to me to put more work on the right hand.

 

I find I go to the middle and outside rows a lot on D tunes. I can't help it; it gives me more options for phrasing, air management, and "punch."

 

Oddly, I find that when I borrow a friend's C/G concertina, a lot of work falls on the weak fingers of my LEFT hand, especially the pinkie; maybe I'm doing it wrong? Or perhaps C/G players are so used to it they don't notice, anymore? I certainly don't notice the work my right pinkie does on a G/D anymore, not like when I first started.

 

I find tunes in A and A minor a snap on the G/D; you wouldn't think so, but that's the way it works out.

 

I don't find the tone of my G/D "deeper" or "more sonorous" than that of a C/G, providing I'm playing in the same octave as everyone else. A440 is A440, in my experience. I can see, of course, if a C/G player picks up a G/D concertina and uses the same fingering he or she is accustomed to, the tone will be deeper; he or she will also be in the wrong key, but transposing has it's benefits.

 

If Irish players had originally started with G/D concertinas, I agree that Irish concertina music would sound different than it does today on the C/G. It would still sound "Irish," I think, because a lot of different instruments are used in ITM, and they all sound Irish. That particular "concertina" sound would just be a little different. For G/D to become a standard (like the B/C accordion), or even a secondary standard (like the C#/D accordion), some brilliant player will have to come along (the Joe Cooley of the concertina) and make his or her music on the G/D concertina, and then a lot of new players will ask "what's that sound" and rush out and buy G/D concertinas. That's what happened with the banjo, guitar, and bouzouki, and it could happen to the G/D concertina, but it's not necessary, in my opinion, since the C/G is doing so nicely for so many.

 

If you want to play ITM, I recommend getting a C/G concertina. You'll have more resources available to you for learning, as others have mentioned. If you have a physical limitation, like me, or a G/D is the best instrument available to you, go for it. In the end, I believe music is in the head and heart, not the equipment.

 

If you want to play ITM on a G/D concertina, you certainly can. Whether you can play it brilliantly it totally up to you.

 

Thanks a lot mutt. Your experience and info will be very valuable for my decision.

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Ok, I am a UK based G/D player with no contact with true ITM players. My approach is to keep as much of the tune in the right hand as possible. I am playing in D on the G row on the pull for the bottom of the range. I find trying to add decoration around the top G most difficult. Please make comments.

 

http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=10612

http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=10611

http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=10610

http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=10608

http://www.onmvoice.com/play.php?a=10607

 

These are from a recorded practise where I left the recorder (H4) going and then kept the best

 

Graham

 

Hello Graham,

 

Well done, thanks for sharing the tunes.

I am not in position to say if it "sounds irish" or not but it certainly sounds nice !

For the "flatbush" my own interpretation is very, very different (more like a mazurka).

I posted it on myspace (see my signature). It's also on the G/D.

About the reel, just one suggestion : you systematically put chords on "strong" beats (1 and 3).

You could try the opposite (beats 2 and 4). This gives some variation and a different swing.

 

David

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I play on a very unusual G/D, and primarily play Irish tunes.

 

I certainly won't claim to be the best player out there (or even close to it). But the notion that you have to play C/G for Irish music is, I think, wrong.

 

Will you sound just like someone playing a C/G using a common system for ITM? Nope.

 

Then again, you also won't sound just like a fiddle player. Or a piper. Or a flute player (whether they are playing simple system or orchestra). Or the whistle player.

 

I've played with people playing traditional instruments -- terribly. And with people playing non-traditional instruments -- brilliantly.

 

The music matters, not the instrument.

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Fairly sure i have this story straight: At concertina Camp we asked Noel Hill about playing ITM on a G/D.

I believe Noel said he spent 5-6 years playing mostly G/D to see where it would take him. I don't remember exactly why he stopped. I recall him saying some of the tunes lay very nicely on a G/D but in the end there was really no clear advantage to it.

 

I'll welcome corroboration or correction of this memory.

 

Greg

 

from my recollection he said 15 years, and that he said he stopped because "it didn't make a difference." the number i remember seems awfully large (yours seems more accurate), but i am fairly certain about the reason he stopped.

Edited by david_boveri
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Oddly, I find that when I borrow a friend's C/G concertina, a lot of work falls on the weak fingers of my LEFT hand, especially the pinkie; maybe I'm doing it wrong? Or perhaps C/G players are so used to it they don't notice, anymore? I certainly don't notice the work my right pinkie does on a G/D anymore, not like when I first started.

 

you are correct in noticing that a disproportionate amount of work while playing C/G falls on the weak fingers of the left hand when playing irish music.

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  • 3 years later...

Sorry for resurrecting such an old thread, but I'm a newby on this forum...so just catching up on all the discussions.

 

I read all the comments to this C/G vs. G/D subject on The Session (and here also), but couldn't login for some reason to The Session, so I'll post my thoughts here. First, could someone clear this "range" thing up for me? I want to be sure I've got this right. According to the charts found here on this forum, a regular G/D has the G row (middle row) as G1 (LH ring finger). Is that really the case? That pitch (G1) seems too low according to a piano chart which has G1 right near the bottom of a piano keybord. So, the numbers on a concertina don't correlate with the numbers on a piano (C4 for example being middle C on a piano)? It would help if the numbers on all instruments referred to the same pitch.

 

That leads to my 2nd question. The G row is the middle row, and it's a 4th lower than the D row--which is the first row, right? And the 3rd row is the accidentals, right?

 

So, my next question is...if the D row on a G/D is one step above the C row on a C/G, why isn't the G row the same as a C/G instead of an octave lower? And furthermore, if the G row on a G/D was raised an octave (to match the G row on a C/G) and then the rows were switched so that you actually had D/G (not G/D), wouldn't this put both rows in the same range as other traditional instruments playing the tunes (Irish reels, jigs, HPs, etc)? Also, with this switch of rows, wouldn't the cross-fingering on D tunes (and G tunes) be a real advantage since the pitch on both would be fairly close together? There would be lots of alternatives...a push or a pull for the same pitched note--at least on several of the buttons in the first two rows, and perhaps more in the 3rd (accidental) row.

 

Geez, my head is spinning....hope I've got everything right so you understand what I'm thinking.

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Sorry for resurrecting such an old thread, but I'm a newby on this forum...so just catching up on all the discussions.

 

I read all the comments to this C/G vs. G/D subject on The Session (and here also), but couldn't login for some reason to The Session, so I'll post my thoughts here. First, could someone clear this "range" thing up for me? I want to be sure I've got this right. According to the charts found here on this forum, a regular G/D has the G row (middle row) as G1 (LH ring finger). Is that really the case? That pitch (G1) seems too low according to a piano chart which has G1 right near the bottom of a piano keybord. So, the numbers on a concertina don't correlate with the numbers on a piano (C4 for example being middle C on a piano)? It would help if the numbers on all instruments referred to the same pitch.

 

That leads to my 2nd question. The G row is the middle row, and it's a 4th lower than the D row--which is the first row, right? And the 3rd row is the accidentals, right?

 

So, my next question is...if the D row on a G/D is one step above the C row on a C/G, why isn't the G row the same as a C/G instead of an octave lower? And furthermore, if the G row on a G/D was raised an octave (to match the G row on a C/G) and then the rows were switched so that you actually had D/G (not G/D), wouldn't this put both rows in the same range as other traditional instruments playing the tunes (Irish reels, jigs, HPs, etc)? Also, with this switch of rows, wouldn't the cross-fingering on D tunes (and G tunes) be a real advantage since the pitch on both would be fairly close together? There would be lots of alternatives...a push or a pull for the same pitched note--at least on several of the buttons in the first two rows, and perhaps more in the 3rd (accidental) row.

 

Geez, my head is spinning....hope I've got everything right so you understand what I'm thinking.

 

I can answer some of your questions. The standard G/D is pitched a fourth below the C/G. Each button is a fourth lower than the corresponding button on a C/G. The reason for this is so a player can switch back and forth from a C/G to a G/D without changing fingerings. (The same principle applies to a Bb/F.) So, comparing the two concertinas, the G (middle) row on a G/D is fourth below the corresponding C (middle) row on a C/G, just as the D row on a G/D is a fourth below the corresponding the G row on a C/G. Similarly, the accidental row on a G/D is a fourth below the accidental row on a C/G.

 

Within each instrument, the non-accidental rows are a fifth apart. The C (middle) row on a C/G is a fifth below the G row on the same instrument, just as the G (middle) row on a G/D is a fifth below the D row on the same instrument.

 

I'll leave it to others to respond to your suggestions that other set-ups would be better.

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.... if the G row on a G/D was raised an octave (to match the G row on a C/G) and then the rows were switched so that you actually had D/G (not G/D), wouldn't this put both rows in the same range as other traditional instruments playing the tunes (Irish reels, jigs, HPs, etc)? Also, with this switch of rows, wouldn't the cross-fingering on D tunes (and G tunes) be a real advantage since the pitch on both would be fairly close together? There would be lots of alternatives...a push or a pull for the same pitched note--at least on several of the buttons in the first two rows, and perhaps more in the 3rd (accidental) row.

What you've just described (a D/G anglo) is in fact the same layout as a D/G melodeon. Such concertinas do exist, but as far as I'm aware they are extremely rare, with only a handful in existence made by Colin and Rosalie Dipper. They made the original "Franglo" for French melodeon maestro Emmanuel Pariselle, and he plays it brilliantly. I've been fortunate enough to have a go on it when he has been in England for melodeon workshops.

 

See here and

.

 

Going back to earlier posts about the respective suitability of G/D and C/G anglos for various styles of music, I am fortunate to have both instruments, but it's usually the G/D which gets used the most, especially playing in sessions, where most tunes seem to be in keys of G and D, with occasional excursions into Em and Am. If the anglo was being invented today, I'm certain it would be pitched in G/D right from the start :rolleyes:. Playing in G, D, Em and Am is a doddle, A major, C major, B minor slightly less so, but still easy enough.

 

I'm also fairly sure that it was the relative availability of the C/G anglo in the last half-century or so which led to it's adoption for Irish music in the keys of G and D. Players of the instrument simply developed the necessary skills needed to play in those keys in the Irish style on the C/G anglo simply because of the general rarity of G/D instruments. In recent years, G/D anglos seem to be getting more common, but there is still a peculiar reluctance (sadly bordering on inverse snobbery in some cases) to accept the use of G/D anglos. A couple of times at sessions I've been told (half in jest, it's true) to put the G/D down and play the tune on the C/G instead - which I do, just to show that in fact I can - but I invariably pick up the G/D afterwards. It's just so comfortable for playing in all sorts of styles: fluid, ornamented Irish, chordal English, sensual, moody French, jazz, blues, etc.

 

If I want to play in the keys of C, F and Bb, I'll pick up the C/G. Some A minor tunes go better on it too, but otherwise it's the G/D for me. :)

 

(Edited to correct typo.)

Edited by Steve_freereeder
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I can answer some of your questions. The standard G/D is pitched a fourth below the C/G. Each button is a fourth lower than the corresponding button on a C/G. The reason for this is so a player can switch back and forth from a C/G to a G/D without changing fingerings. (The same principle applies to a Bb/F.) So, comparing the two concertinas, the G (middle) row on a G/D is fourth below the corresponding C (middle) row on a C/G, just as the D row on a G/D is a fourth below the corresponding the G row on a C/G. Similarly, the accidental row on a G/D is a fourth below the accidental row on a C/G.

 

Within each instrument, the non-accidental rows are a fifth apart. The C (middle) row on a C/G is a fifth below the G row on the same instrument, just as the G (middle) row on a G/D is a fifth below the D row on the same instrument.

 

I'll leave it to others to respond to your suggestions that other set-ups would be better.

Thanks for the explanation, Daniel. Now I understand why they say a G/D sounds more like an accordian...being pitched that low. I still don't understand why the charts here on this forum have C2 labeled on the button (LH, C row, ring finger) http://www.concertina.net/ms_finger_layouts.html when it's actually C4 on a piano! Oh well.

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.... if the G row on a G/D was raised an octave (to match the G row on a C/G) and then the rows were switched so that you actually had D/G (not G/D), wouldn't this put both rows in the same range as other traditional instruments playing the tunes (Irish reels, jigs, HPs, etc)? Also, with this switch of rows, wouldn't the cross-fingering on D tunes (and G tunes) be a real advantage since the pitch on both would be fairly close together? There would be lots of alternatives...a push or a pull for the same pitched note--at least on several of the buttons in the first two rows, and perhaps more in the 3rd (accidental) row.

What you've just described (a D/G anglo) is in fact the same layout as a D/G melodeon. Such concertinas do exist, but as far as I'm aware they are extremely rare, with only a handful in existence made by Colin and Rosalie Dipper. They made the original "Franglo" for French melodeon maestro Emmanuel Pariselle, and he plays it brilliantly. I've been fortunate enough to have a go on it when he has been in England for melodeon workshops.

I never knew that....thanks for the info! I have an old Wheatstone concertina that is tuned D/G (middle row D...up one step from C row on a regular C/G, and the G row same pitch as G row on a regular C/G) and I have to say it lends itself quite well to many of the Irish tunes I play. Other tunes work better with the standard C/G, but I nearly always go back to the D/G for tunes in D, G, Am, Em, and Amaj. It is esp useful for modal D tunes (pipe tunes like The Old Bush w/minor 7th scale). The amazing thing is how convenient the two rows are set up against each other in D/G for cross-fingering. The D/G is NOT played only on the rows. Many buttons on the LH stair-step up the scale (using either push or pull thoughout), alternatively between the 2 rows, same with RH. Several "runs of 3 notes" can be found too, using only the pull or the push. Fiddlers do this a lot. I see a lot of similarities between bowing a fiddle and working the concertina bellows. In fact, the most amazing thing about this D/G, regarding ornaments, is there are 6 notes (12 buttons) that have 2 buttons each pitched the same, but the 2 are in different rows (sometimes one is found in the 3rd row). IOW, if you want to double up on a note, just for the triplet effect (going back and forth), you can do that with the starting D note, then moving up the scale, you find the A, the octave D, the octave E, the octave G, and octave A - they all have doubles--and you don't have to switch directions with bellows. Very handy for some tunes. The triplet effect (using two fingers on 2 different buttons) is slightly different than the fast action of coming down on the same button with 3 different fingers, or popping the button 3 times with 1 finger. So, you can do that in six differents locations, with six different notes, while playing your tunes!

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I still don't understand why the charts here on this forum have C2 labeled on the button (LH, C row, ring finger) http://www.concertina.net/ms_finger_layouts.html when it's actually C4 on a piano! Oh well.

 

Whilst suitable for ones own use, it is always difficult to construct charts that meet the needs or understanding of everyone.

 

Unfortunately, there are many methods used to indicate what octave a note lies within which can lead to confusion.

 

I believe that the numbers used on the charts in the link purely indicate the relationship between the octaves on each instrument. i.e. the lower the number, the lower the octave.

Comparing the two sets of charts, it will be seen that the lowest notes on the G/D (0) lie within an octave lower than those of the C/G (1).

 

I am sometimes asked to provide charts for particular instruments, usually by those contemplating taking up or upon obtaining a concertina. I find that the information supplied (See Example Attachment) generally meets all requirements.

 

 

 

Geoffrey

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I still don't understand why the charts here on this forum have C2 labeled on the button (LH, C row, ring finger) http://www.concertina.net/ms_finger_layouts.html when it's actually C4 on a piano! Oh well.

 

Whilst suitable for ones own use, it is always difficult to construct charts that meet the needs or understanding of everyone.

 

Unfortunately, there are many methods used to indicate what octave a note lies within which can lead to confusion.

 

I believe that the numbers used on the charts in the link purely indicate the relationship between the octaves on each instrument. i.e. the lower the number, the lower the octave.

Comparing the two sets of charts, it will be seen that the lowest notes on the G/D (0) lie within an octave lower than those of the C/G (1).

 

I am sometimes asked to provide charts for particular instruments, usually by those contemplating taking up or upon obtaining a concertina. I find that the information supplied (See Example Attachment) generally meets all requirements.

 

attachicon.gif31 Anglo Crabb Standard notes.doc

 

Geoffrey

Thanks for that. I think you are right. The C2 probably had nothing to do with the piano C4, it was just a numbering system within the concetina, and those color codes helped separate the octves.

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That's one person's fingering charts and their interpretation of the octave numbering - probably based on Middle C being one octave above low C on a standard C/G Anglo. The more conventional notation is based on Middle C being in the fourth octave of an 88-key piano. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_pitch_notation

 

I hope you won't feel I'm splitting hairs, but the link you've given is for 'Scientific pitch notation' and as the article states, it was proposed to the Acoustical Society of America in 1939. In Europe, you might find Helmholtz pitch notation a little more common. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmholtz_pitch_notation

 

Adrian

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