Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D for ITM?

[CesarPim]

Hi everybody.

I am new to these forums so first let me introduce myself. I am a whistler for almost 4 years (as a hobby), I love and play ITM as often as I can here in Portugal. Recently I have also grown an interest for the anglo concertina and have been gathering a lot of info and studying the potential of this amazing instrument.

 

I have posted the following text on thesession.org but I guess here is where I may find a bigger quantity of experts

 

MY POST IS:

 

I know that it is not new to ask whether I can use G/D for Irish music, instead of C/G. But what if we don't use "the system"?

 

Consider the following situation:

- A begginer in anglo concertina (so not yet used to "the system" which means there is no difficulty in changing to another fingering)

- Wanting to play mostly Irish tunes in the keys of D and G

 

In what way playing a C/G according to "the system" is better than playing a G/D using a more "single row" fingering?

 

I have seen people saying that with G/D I have one of the following problems: a) either i am playing lower notes and may not be heard during a session or to play in the same octave as others I am playing almost everything with my right hand.

 

But this is not true if I don't use "the system" way of fingering!

 

Consider this diagram that is useful to reference which octave I am talking about:

http://www.concertina.net/ms_finger_layouts.html

 

The majority of irish tunes I know are in D and G, and range from note D2 up to B3 (see diagram).

 

With a C/G concertina we typically use "the system" by playing cross row. We play D2,E2,F#2,G2,A2 on the left side and B2,C3/C#3,D3,E3,F#3,G3,A3,B3 on the right side. That's 5 notes on the left and 8 notes on the right.

 

Now with a D/G concertina I can simply use the bottom (D) row (and one button from middle (G) row if I need the Cnat for the key of G). I play D2,E2,F#2,G2,A2,B2 on the left side and C3/C#3,D3,E3,F#3,G3,A3,B3 on the right side. That's 6 notes on the left and 7 notes on the right.

 

So this means that I can play the most common keys and notes in irish music in the same octave as usual (not lower notes) and I don't play more with my right hand (on the contrary, there is one more note on the left).

 

Moreover, if I want to sometimes play ALL notes on the draw (pull), I notice that all the notes I mentioned above (from D2 to B3) are available on the draw (pull) except for one: A3. I think in a C/G I dont even have so many notes available in that direction.

 

Given this situation, in what is a C/G system better if I want to play just in the keys of D and G? Can someone tell me? I searched all threads here and in concertina.net and I cannot find a reason for prefering C/G system either than historical reasons or habit.

 

Please tell me what am I not seeing right.

Thanks.

Cesar

[Guest Peter Laban]

I was watching the thread on thesession, a place where I have long since stopped posting. One of the contributors said in his profile 'I have nothing to say' and that was about the only thing he got right.

 

Anyhow, as I see it, the first choice you'll have to make is finding an answer to the following: do you want to go out and re-invent the wheel or would you build on the experience and expertise of thousands of players that chose one system over the other?

[CesarPim]

Anyhow, as I see it, the first choice you'll have to make is finding an answer to the following: do you want to go out and re-invent the wheel or would you build on the experience and expertise of thousands of players that chose one system over the other?

 

Boxer. The question you suggest is also very relevant. But before deciding upon that, first I would like to find an answer to my original question.

[Paul Read]

I believe that the C/G was adopted by Irish players because that is what was available originally. Since then people have done what Peter says and copied what was common practice. Because of the limitations of this way of playing on the particular instrument, some very stylized techniques have been developed and this has produced a particular "Irish" sound. I think it is possible to play Irish tunes on a G/D but it may be hard to reproduce that particular sound with all the ornaments etc. Also, because there are so many Irish style players there a many tutors for playing Irish music on the C/G, not much for the G/D. Of course, you could play English style and use the whole instrument.....

[Frank Edgley]

It can be done. I know someone who has played ITM in the usual keys on a G/D, but by using almost exclusively his right hand, not the system you suggest. I echo Peter's attitude. However, if someone has the time to figure out reasons why not (not necessarily an activity which most people have a reason to do) and inclination to verbalise the reasons, good luck to you. If you really want to do it you can certainly work it out. If you haven't done something, sometimes the only way anyone can know for sure is to try it. Most of us trust the opinions of many others, rather than take the risk of the likelihood of disappointment. Who knows? You may start something.

[Boney]

if someone has the time to figure out reasons why not (not necessarily an activity which most people have a reason to do) and inclination to verbalise the reasons, good luck to you.

Yes, there's a huge difference between the ability to play Irish tunes, and the ability to play in an Irish style. The second is a lot harder to pin down with words.

[L'Albatroce]

I suspect it has something to do with the range. I hear ideal Irish concertina sound likened to the flute. It could be that people don't like the sound of low pitched concertina in an ITM context. It might also have something to do with the response of the larger reeds, that's something that could easily be tested. Also, on a C/G box, I find the cross-row fingerings for C less fluid than those on G. You can play an octave of G maj all on the push or all on the pull, and there's no pull C on a C/G. What is true of Cmaj on a C/G would be true of Gmaj on a G/D box, so I'm not sure it would be as easy to play idiomatically Irish music in Gmaj on a G/D as it is on a C/G. It may be a trade off between ease of G and ease of D, but it's notoriously hard to prove relative advantages of keyboard layouts (just talk to a Dvorak supporter).

[J Werner]

I'd say it sounds like you know what you want to do, so go for it! It'll be "different," but it sounds like you're musically knowledgeable enough to figure out and teach yourself the tricks you'll need to play well on a G/D. (Though I'm glad I'm learning on a C/G because I have the benefit of learning from all the techniques that have been developed for playing in G and D on this instrument.) There are lots of techniques used on a C/G to do certain parts of certain tunes fast and stylized in a certain kind of way, but I'm sure you'll come up with different techniques that work well for those tunes on a G/D.

 

One limitation of a G/D that I personally wouldn't like is that it would be more difficult to play in F, while F is one of my favorite keys right now on the C/G. (The patterns for playing in F on the C/G would give you the key of C on the G/D instrument.) Think about how much you like tunes in F before getting a G/D.

[CesarPim]

I believe that the C/G was adopted by Irish players because that is what was available originally. Since then people have done what Peter says and copied what was common practice. Because of the limitations of this way of playing on the particular instrument, some very stylized techniques have been developed (...)

 

That's exactly what I think. If the available instrument at the time would have been a G/D instead of C/G, likewise, Irish players would have adopted D/G and developed techniques that they would now call ITM. My point being that there doesn't seem to be any particular advantage of C/G for ITM, it's just "the chosen one" for historical reasons and habit.

 

If I would now start using a G/D to play ITM, using only the bottom row, the most advanced players (perhaps not so many) would eventually notice that it doesn't sound as they expected. It doesn't sound like what they got used to call ITM. But:

a) It doesn't mean it sounds worse;

It doesn't mean i will not be able to evolve as quickly (perhaps i'll evolve even more quickly).

 

Do you also think like this?

[Stephen Chambers]

As far as we can tell, up until the 1940s all Irish concertina playing was "on the straight row" in the home keys of the instrument, which was then usually a 20-key German concertina. It's what Kitty Hayes did (and why Peter played C pipes with her), and you can hear it in some of Mrs. Crotty's tunes too, whilst there are still players who like to play in C-fingering, like Mary McNamara... For that matter, the inventor of "the system" has himself been known to play (and record with) an Ab/Eb concertina, using it like a G/D to play in Eb.

 

It only became necessary to play louder (Anglo, as opposed to German) concertinas, across the rows in "concert pich" following the implementation of The Public Dance Halls Act 1935, which pretty much limited dancing to Parochial Halls and necessitated musicians playing together in "ceili bands", to be heard over the dancing in a large hall - instead of playing solo for a "house dance". This is why Paddy Murphy, the leading pioneer of the "modern" style, started to play that way, and most others have since followed in his footsteps.

[Greg Jowaisas]

Fairly sure i have this story straight: At concertina Camp we asked Noel Hill about playing ITM on a G/D.

I believe Noel said he spent 5-6 years playing mostly G/D to see where it would take him. I don't remember exactly why he stopped. I recall him saying some of the tunes lay very nicely on a G/D but in the end there was really no clear advantage to it.

 

I'll welcome corroboration or correction of this memory.

 

Greg

[CesarPim]

Fairly sure i have this story straight: At concertina Camp we asked Noel Hill about playing ITM on a G/D.

I believe Noel said he spent 5-6 years playing mostly G/D to see where it would take him. I don't remember exactly why he stopped. I recall him saying some of the tunes lay very nicely on a G/D but in the end there was really no clear advantage to it.

 

I'll welcome corroboration or correction of this memory.

 

Greg

 

But was he playing the G/D in the 1st row (D row)? Or he playing it in the usual way as if it was a transposed C/G (meaning that tunes in D become tunes in A and tunes in G become tunes in D)?

[CesarPim]

I'd say it sounds like you know what you want to do, so go for it! It'll be "different," but it sounds like you're musically knowledgeable enough to figure out and teach yourself the tricks you'll need to play well on a G/D. (Though I'm glad I'm learning on a C/G because I have the benefit of learning from all the techniques that have been developed for playing in G and D on this instrument.)

 

Thanks. Though I'm still not decided... it's a big endeavor

 

There are lots of techniques used on a C/G to do certain parts of certain tunes fast and stylized in a certain kind of way, but I'm sure you'll come up with different techniques that work well for those tunes on a G/D.

 

That's a good point... I guess I would be on my own Nobody would help me

 

One limitation of a G/D that I personally wouldn't like is that it would be more difficult to play in F, while F is one of my favorite keys right now on the C/G. (The patterns for playing in F on the C/G would give you the key of C on the G/D instrument.) Think about how much you like tunes in F before getting a G/D.

 

My main concern with keys is to be able to play the tunes in the keys they are played at the sessions... F is not very common (at least as far as I am aware...)

Thanks.

[Guest Peter Laban]

I know a (small) number of people who play Irish music on a D/G, successfully.

 

Kitty Hayes was mentioned, I would just like to say that at some point she got a Marcus G/D from Custy's and hated every minute of it, this may have been at least partly due to the make and the sound that came out of it (she couldn't get used to the sound of it, it didn't sound like a concertina she said) and she got rid of it quickly. It went back to Custy's (after there were no interest in it on this forum) at a great loss of money to her.

 

She'd been better off with a D/A I'd have thought.

[michael sam wild]

The discussion goes on here!

 

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23172

 

 

By the way i'll be interested to see what is said abut William Mullaly's concertina when the CD is issued. He was the first Irishman recorded in the 1920s

Edited November 23, 2009 by michael sam wild

[David Levine]

L'Albatroce:

... there's no pull C on a C/G

Not so. Left hand, G row.

 

Peter, who are the G/D Anglo players of ITM that you speak of? I don't know of a single one.

Edited November 23, 2009 by David Levine

[Stephen Chambers]

Kitty Hayes was mentioned, I would just like to say that at some point she got a Marcus G/D from Custy's and hated every minute of it, this may have been at least partly due to the make and the sound that came out of it (she couldn't get used to the sound of it, it didn't sound like a concertina she said) and she got rid of it quickly. ...

 

She'd been better off with a D/A I'd have thought.

From what she said to me, I think (like many of the older Irish players, including 94-year old Paddy Frawley in Kilrush) she might have been happier with the sound of a good German concertina, and if it had a D row she could have played in "concert pitch" - but the pitch wouldn't have been such an issue when she was younger.

[Stephen Chambers]

By the way i'll be interested to see what is said abut William Mullaly's concertina when the CD is issued. He was the first Irishman recorded in the 1920s

Let's just say he wasn't doing what people (including Paddy Murphy) imagined...