Morris Music On A C/g Anglo

[Peter Brook]

Hi everyone!

 

Please be gentle with me as it's my first post.

 

I have been playing concertina regularly for about a year when I bought an Andrew Norman 30 key C/G anglo. Previously I had been messing about with a cheap old german anglo which is a family handme down of great age, and weird tuning (it says Dulcet on it).

 

I have been after a "proper" concertina for the last twenty years since I saw Father Kenneth Loveless at the local folk club playing Mr Kimber's concertina - and he let me play it (for about 10 seconds!)

 

Anyway to get on to my question I always wanted a C/G as that to me is the "authentic" anglo tuning. However to play along to morris dancing in the right octave you need to play "across the rows" (so that you have your left hand largely free to play bass).

 

Does anyone else do this? And if you do, how do you then develop your bass harmony?

 

Also how did Kimber and Father Ken and the others do it? Was Morris music played in C in their day?

 

thanks (in anticipation of your help),

 

Peter

[RustyBits]

No Fair! You got to PLAY William Kimbers concertina!

 

I'm far from an expert, but I play Morris tunes on my C/G. Because I play solo for Morris dancers it doesn't matter what key I play the tunes in. I learn tunes by ear I just sound them out in what ever key they seem to fit and has the most comfortable fingering and easiest accompaniment. However, this may not work if you play with other musicians that are playing tunes in the "right" key.

 

I'm self taught and have always played across the rows, so I'll be interested to hear what other Morris musicians have to say.

 

Kimber played for Headington, and according to the Bacon Book most of the Headington tunes are in D and A. . . a few in G and a few F. Was his concertina a C/G ??

[Jim Besser]

No, you can play in C to your heart's content -- if you play solo.

 

Initially, I learned my side's tunes in G because I thought it was a rigid rule: only in G. But after consulting several senior squeezers, I learned that it's just a convention catering to the melodeon players.

 

In fact, getting the right sound is very hard on a C/G if you play in G, cross -row. It sounds much better in C, gives you many more chord possibilities, etc.

 

I learned Trunkles in G, but when I switched to C, it sounded much more "authentic," had much more punch and was more fun to play. Try it and you'll see what I mean.

 

My rule: mostly in C when I play solo. But I know most of our tunes in G for those occasional times when some stray BA player joins in. I've played with plenty of other C/G players in C at Morris events (I was playing Monk's March in C last year when I thought my concertina had grown some extra reeds; looked around, and another C/G player had joined in. Sounded great)

 

And, of course, you need to know the mass dance tunes in G, because it's gonna sound funny if you play Highland Mary in C when everybody else is in G.

Edited April 29, 2004 by Jim Besser

[JimLucas]

...to play along to morris dancing in the right octave you need to play "across the rows" (so that you have your left hand largely free to play bass).

I don't recall anyone saying that it's wrong to play across the rows for Morris.

 

Also how did Kimber and Father Ken and the others do it?  Was Morris music played in C in their day?

How did WK do it? You should get a copy of the Absolutely Classic CD of his playing (and reminiscences), produced by EFDSS, and listen to it.

 

As for keys, I just listened to a few tracks from the CD, and they all seem to be in either C or G, whichever is needed to keep the entire melody in the right hiand.

[JimLucas]

Kimber played for Headington, and according to the Bacon Book most of the Headington tunes are in D and A. . . a few in G and a few F.

I'm pretty sure that WK had long since stopped playing for Headington by the time the Bacon book was put together. If the Headington musician Bacon collected from was a fiddler, that would probably account for the preponderance of D and A, with other keys on particular tunes.

 

Was his concertina a C/G ??

I believe so. It certainly seems to be that way on the CD.

[Peter Brook]

Thanks for all your replies.

 

Looking back on it I still find it hard to believe that Father Ken let me even breathe on William Kimber's concertina - I guess I was too young to appreciate it at the time. Even John Kirkpatrick hasn't had the privilege (yet).

 

I am keen not to get stuck in a rut on the concertina. I enjoy playing across the rows (and up and down) but I'd like to add some punch with the occasional bass note or notes. I just wondered if anyone had a method of doing this or if it was just a trial and error/practice thing. When I play for morris we have a small "band" comprising myself on concertina, a melodeon, two violins and a serpent! So I have to play in G or D when with this group. (We dance mainly Adderbury, Fieldtown and Bampton tradition).

 

Also I appreciate that people are all around the globe but is anyone going to concertinas anonymous on Monday 3rd may in Lewes (East Sussex)?

[Robin Harrison]

As a youth I also played on Kimbers concertina.....C / G......I then got Father Ken to play my Jeffries to osmotically (or maybe holisically) connect me to Kimber.!!

As Jim L. says,he does anything he can to keep the tune wholly in the right hand,not only switching to G but also sometimes playing a note an octave higher mid-tune.

The effect of this ,to MY ear, is to drive the dance with the left hand.Listen to the Classic Kimber Cd track where he's recorded outside a pub.You can hardly here the melody over the bells etc,but you DO hear the chords.

Where are you located , Peter , there's got to be someone around to help you(remember the ICA do a great mentoring service)

 

regs Robin

 

Remember,the keys noted in Bacon need not concern you at all.If your instrument only plays in H major. That's what you do and that's authenic

[Lester Bailey]

I think it is fair to say that the preponderance of tunes in G, D and E min in Morris is wholly driven by melodeon players. If you look in Bacon or Sharp there are many more keys used and I surmise it would have depended on the instrument the collectee was playing when the collector collected.

 

My team consists mostly of English concertina players so we do use other keys, sometimes juts to annoy passing melodeon players, my particular favourite is Cuckoo's Nest Sherborne in G Min so much better than the normal E Min.

 

ps. At last weeks practice, near the end of the practice season so everyone turned up, we had 12 dancers, 1 English Treble, 1 English Baritone, 1 English Bass, 1 Norman Anglo (C/G), 2 melodeons, 1 Saxophone, 1 Eb Bass. Touch of the never mind the quality feel the width music.

[Stephen Chambers]

Hello Peter,

 

Previously I had been messing about with a cheap old german anglo which is a family handme down of great age, and weird tuning (it says Dulcet on it).

"Dulcet" was originally a trade mark of the London musical instrument importers/distributers Barnett Samuel, 1861-1928 (when the company became the Decca Gramophone Co. Ltd.), and continued to be used by Rose Morris & Co. Ltd., who bought the musical instrument part of the business.

 

Anyway to get on to my question I always wanted a C/G as that to me is the "authentic" anglo tuning.

Anglos were mainly built in C/G (giving the third key D), Bb/F (third key C) and Ab/Eb (third key Bb), in that order. The C/G might be described as the "standard anglo", but they all have their uses, and some of us would contend that the Bb/F is the best for solo playing, still having much of the "bite" of a C/G, but also more of the richness of the Ab/Eb, the latter having been used mainly by the Salvation Army (they were made to play in the same keys as brass instruments). The G/D system was virtually unheard of, and original G/D-tuned anglos are exceedingly rare, the vast majority of them having been converted (usually from Ab/Eb) in recent years.

 

... how did Kimber and Father Ken and the others do it? Was Morris music played in C in their day?

Morris (and other forms of folk dance music) was played in whatever keys suited the instruments being used, most of the old free reed ones being pitched in C, though the tunes were often written down from the playing of fiddle, or tabor-pipe, players, so they tend to be notated for instruments pitched in D.

You will find, for example, that the traditional East-Anglian melodeon players have always played in C. I bought several instruments, only last year, that had belonged to one of them (the late Cyril Stannard, from Suffolk), who had single-row C's, and double-row G/C, C/F, C/C# and B/C boxes (though he also had a "new-fangled", seemingly unused, D/G), but it was always the C-row that had got all the playing. Fiddle players would simply tune down a tone, and play in C (using D fingering), just as they still do in Cajun music.

The playing of G/D concertinas, and D/G melodeons, is a relatively new, post-war, development. The first D/G accordions manufactured for the English folk market were built by Hagstrom (who set up a factory in Sunderland, after WWII), especially for the English Folk Dance Society, in 1949, and could only be bought by members of the Society who had pre-ordered them at that time. The very first Hohner D/G's for the English market only appeared in 1955. The system was so new that a 1957 article in English Dance & Song, "What you can do with the melodeon", doesn't even mention it !

 

... to play along to morris dancing in the right octave you need to play "across the rows" (so that you have your left hand largely free to play bass).

It may seem like heresy to suggest it today, but maybe the best solution would be to persuade melodeon players to switch back to playing G/C boxes ? The sound of a C/G anglo, played with a G/C melodeon, is much brighter and more lively, and the octave difference, between the two G rows, can sound very effective (the G of the G/C melodeon being one octave lower, rather than the "squeaky" high G of the D/G).

Cheers !

 

Edited to update

Edited August 25, 2016 by Stephen Chambers

[Robin Harrison]

Hi Stephen......The sharing of concertina information is what I enjoy most about this web site.

I had been told that most anglos were tuned in flat keys as ,certainly in the North of England,there was a lot of brass band music available . The C/G would have been less common....is that wrong ? It would be interesting to know the proportions of keys made.Would there be a large enough sample of C.net members to extrapolate ? Any statistisitions out there?

Could you comment on the relationship of Concertina bands to Brass bands.Has any work been done or published on concertina bands ? Were concertinas cheaper than brass instruments ?

I'm hoping to be in agreement with your comments on the Bflat/F anglo.I've played both my Jeffries for Morris.The G on the C/G I don't like.....too high....but the G on the G/D is too mellow.....often the dancers can't hear it adequately over crowd/traffic noises.

Soon (?) I should be getting a Bflat / F . I've played one before(not for Morris) and it seems to me to be an ideal key and not a compromise between the two.I can't quite tell you why,but the flat key seems to suit the anglo perfectly.

I hope to have it mean tone tuned....but that's a subject for another post closer the time of arrival !!

Regards Robin

[Chris Timson]

It may seem like heresy to suggest it today, but maybe the best solution would be to persuade melodeon players to switch back to playing G/C boxes ?

Best of luck! Melodeon players make anglo players look adventurous!

 

Chris

 

PS Not disparaging the C/G in any way (the C/G is right for my singing voice) but, speaking for myself, personally, in my own opinion, I think the G/D is rather nice, actually.

[geoffwright]

Another compromise would be for melodion players to stop using the bass so much in Morris and for them to get cross-fingering to get out of G and D.

Shock... Horror ... I have heard a vicious, but unfounded rumour that they are even making new-fangled melodions with ACCIDENTALS of all things!!. Whatever next?

 

I have never had problems keeping up with the best morris bands on my C/G, and if you play in octaves using both sides, a C/G comes into its own then, as the loudest instrument in the band (especially if metal ended and/or a Jeffries).

[JimLucas]

Shock... Horror ... I have heard a vicious, but unfounded rumour that they are even making new-fangled melodions with ACCIDENTALS of all things!!. Whatever next?

Deliberate accidentals? That is shocking!

My teammates get annoyed when I play those accidental notes.

[Helen]

Hey Jim,

 

Steve Schneider (or Shneider, I forget) anyway, he calls them alternative notes. I like that.

 

Helen

[JimLucas]

[Re accidentals, or "accidentals"] Steve Schneider (or Shneider, I forget) anyway, he calls them alternative notes. I like that.

I especially like the line I heard years ago: "Them thar's what Louis Killen calls 'variations'!"

[Helen]

Oh, I like that too.

[Peter Brook]

thanks Geoff,

 

that is what I have decided to do next in my practice (I did it for the first time on Sunday) - play octaves of the morris tunes.

 

I think once I am reasonably competent at playing in octaves, I should be able to shove the extra harmonising note in here and there.

 

Norman Anglos have a very fast action and have a bright loud tone so I can usually be heard above the other instuments.

 

cheers,

 

Peter

[Robin Madge]

For John o' Gaunt Morris men we normally play tunes in G, with an occasonal one in D. We have a set of musicians with no two instruments alike, G/D melodian, B/C melodian, extended treble English, G/D, Bb/F or C/G Anglo (Me), fiddle, drum, Tuba and Bass Trombone. We also have another English player and another melodian player amongst the dancers.

I mainly play the G/D but on occasions the C/G is better, still playing in G. It depends on how the tune fits within the scale, sometimes the overall sound is better with the higher octave.

I drop hints about how melodian chords usually sound better if kept stacatto but they are not always heeded!

If things get too muzzy I up the volume on the staccato on the Anglo.

We do both North-west and Cotwold, by the way.

For a couple of dances, the Wyresdale arse-kicking dance (also known as Dolphinholme Old man's dance and three-legged dance) for example, we just use a recorder with Anglo playing chords.

 

Robin Madge