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Posted (edited)

I just saw someone asking £5,550 for a G/D Anglo what's the highest anyone has spotted? At this rate they'll be bought as investments and maybe never played. Once things become collector's items that happens.

 

I notice a lot of pros use Suttners and Dickinsons etc, Are people getting on the waiting lists as an investment or to play them. Just wondered.

 

I'm not being too judgemental as I realise it's potentially a better return than savings and could be someone's pension strategy. And I'm sure the makers need the work

Edited by michael sam wild
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Posted
I just saw someone asking £5,550 for a G/D Anglo what's the highest anyone has spotted? At this rate they'll be bought as investments and maybe never played. Once things become collector's items that happens.

 

I notice a lot of pros use Suttners and Dickinsons etc, Are people getting on the waiting lists as an investment or to play them. Just wondered.

 

Here's a Jeffries for $9800 (http://www.buttonbox.com/cau0532.html)

Posted

It's a lot of money, but that's surely the top flight. (Would a G/D Jeffries fetch more or less than a C/G BTW?)

 

But compared with other instruments?

Leaving aside the Stradivari's etc, how about Lloyd Loar F5 mandolins from the 1920's that run well over £100,000?

 

Would it be fair to say that most students going off to read music at college are taking an instrument somewhere in the £2,000-£10,000 range?

Posted
It's a lot of money, but that's surely the top flight. (Would a G/D Jeffries fetch more or less than a C/G BTW?)

 

I think it depends where you are. G/Ds in England are worth more than G/Ds in, say, Ireland where the C/G is king.

 

 

Would it be fair to say that most students going off to read music at college are taking an instrument somewhere in the £2,000-£10,000 range?

 

More £1 - £3000, I'd say, from my parnter's experience at Bath Spa University. But certainly not cheap.

 

I've never been able to sign up to the "concedrtinas cost x thousands, the world's about to end" idea, because the finest concertinas are still worth far less than their equivalents in other musical phyla. You might buy one as an investment but there are other instruments that would pay better. I think the demand is driven by musicians, and as the demand grows then we are seeing a market develop for the mid-range makers too. Jolly good, say I.

 

Chris

Posted
I just saw someone asking £5,550 for a G/D Anglo what's the highest anyone has spotted? At this rate they'll be bought as investments and maybe never played. Once things become collector's items that happens.

 

I notice a lot of pros use Suttners and Dickinsons etc, Are people getting on the waiting lists as an investment or to play them. Just wondered.

 

Here's a Jeffries for $9800 (http://www.buttonbox.com/cau0532.html)

It's a 26-button Bb/f too

Posted
I just saw someone asking £5,550 for a G/D Anglo what's the highest anyone has spotted? At this rate they'll be bought as investments and maybe never played. Once things become collector's items that happens.

I think quite a few vintage anglos -- Jeffries and even Wheatstones -- have gone for rather more than that to serious players. (There have been prior threads where specific prices were mentioned. No time to look them up for you right now.)

 

I notice a lot of pros use Suttners and Dickinsons etc, Are people getting on the waiting lists as an investment or to play them. Just wondered.

The great majority (if one can consider even a majority of the instruments made by Dickinson, Suttner, et al to be a "great" number) are most certainly players with no intention of reselling in the foreseeable future.

 

I'm not being too judgemental as I realise it's potentially a better return than savings....

Maybe yes, maybe no.

I understand that "the going price" for top quality anglos in Ireland may have dropped by as much as 20% in the last couple of years. The financial downturn hasn't hit only pension funds and paper investments.

Posted

A fine orchestral flute( Powell, Haynes, Lamberson, Brannen) $10,000 to 20,000. An artist level bassoon( Heckle, or Puchner) approximately 25,000. Selmer vintage saxophones 4000 to 8000 depending on condition, serial number and original lacquer. All that said, with all instruments entry level although available will always have a low resale. Intermediate instruments, an improvement to player, but still not the end result. Handmade, artist level instruments either a keeper, or at least an easy resale or trade value.

 

Vintage Porsche vs new Porsche? hmmmm.

Posted

I just saw someone asking £5,550 for a G/D Anglo what's the highest anyone has spotted?

 

Hobgoblin (Manchester) list a Jefferies at £6950, and don't say what keys it's in. I was in the shop some weeks ago, and asked if I could see it, but was told it was sold to a lady who was more than pleased with her purchase. However it's still listed today, so perhaps the deal fell through. It is (or was) a C/G

Posted (edited)
A friend of mine in L.A. bought a Dipper restored Jeffries for about $12,500

I have to say that seems quite a lot of dosh to me too, certainly more than I can afford, but as the owner of a Dipper restored Jeffries G/D I can say that he has the consolation of playing a superb instrument. I'm head over heels in love with mine!

 

Chris

Edited by Chris Timson
Posted

Just my 2 cents…

I’ve been involved several times in the past as an ‘expert’ in insurance settlements concerning concertinas. In my experience there is quite a gap between reality and the ‘wishful’ pricing within our community.

As everyone knows, insuring an instrument for a given amount is easy. However, when you need to collect on your insurance you’ll find out that the price you paid for the instrument has very little value. Depending on the insurer or courier, you’ll find out very fast that assumed values based on undocumented and unmotivated exorbitant purchase prices are not accepted.

 

Comparing vintage concertinas to other musical instruments is very difficult. For instance, you cannot compare concertina prices with new high end wind or string instruments sold through music retailers. A $10.000 instrument sold through a retailer includes sales tax (up to 20% in Europe), a standard 48-50% retail mark up, shipping (manufacturer to retailer), insurance and advertising costs. In general, PRODUCTION cost of a 10.000 instrument is between 20-30% (2000-3000).

 

Vintage instruments are a lot harder to value than new ones. The quality and availability determines part of the value. If the demand is greater than the supply the value will go up. This has been the case with concertinas during the last 30+ years, however, with several new makers producing traditional concertinas (with ‘real’ concertina reeds), the balance is moving again. At this moment the combined output is 150+ instruments per year. This availability of new instruments will affect the ‘availability part’ of the vintage value. History shows that when the number of new instruments increases, the value of vintage instruments will decrease. Besides, all mechanical instruments are subject to wear and material deterioration. Concertinas are not violins.

 

When you look at the ‘quality part’ of the value of a vintage instrument, you’ll notice that a lot is based on myths and misunderstandings, which are accepted as facts and affect values. For example, the steel used for concertina reeds is the only 48-50 Rockwell, and comparable to the steel used in accordion reeds of that period. However, you still find people paying a premium for the ‘special’ reeds…..

 

The Wheatstone linota is made with the same materials and has the same reeds/reed scaling as the hexagonal english and duet models of that time. However, 60 of these reeds in an anglo are worth (?) $12000, and 92 of the same reeds in a 46 key duet only a few hundred…. I am sure Stephen Chambers can elaborate on the models and prices. Keep in mind that Wheatstone considered their Aeola english and duet models as superior in both design and materials.

 

If someone is willing to pay amount X for a concertina without any motivation and/or documentation of the asking price, amount X becomes the value of the instrument in our concertina community. No one seems to question how realistic this price is.

If I sell a used car for twice the blue book value because the buyer believes my sales pitch, is the car than actually worth that price, or did I fool the buyer...

 

If you look at other instrument groups, pricing is done much more conservatively and requires extensive documentation and prove of value. For example, most of the buyers and sellers of high end string instruments are professionally trained players, restorers, builders, traders etc. They have a solid knowledge of the instrument. They require extensive documentation and prove of value before buying an instrument. My old (Dutch) neighbor trades in violins starting at 100.000 euros ($145000) and up. He has a team of specialists researching and documenting every instrument he buys or sells. Price fluctuations are minimal and extensively motivated.

 

I was once asked to value a Linota. Based on the quality of the instrument I came to a value of $2500-3000 (because of the relative poor condition of the reeds). Later I found out that the seller fooled (?) a buyer by claiming Linotas have super quality reeds made out of ‘special’ steel, and managed to sell it for $8000+. The instrument has been sold at least once more for even a higher price, because the seller (former buyer) simply repeats the sales pitch and no one seems to think of having it appraised before buying it.

Unfortunately, I know of several ‘high priced’ instruments that I have seen or worked on, that pop up once in a while on the market and have ‘gained’ another few thousand $$. The new owners pay 3 or more times the actual value without knowing it.

 

I can imagine that it sounds great when you see an instrument comparable to your own being sold for 2-3 times the price you paid for it. On the other hand several (free reed) restorers are starting to worry about this. It is becoming this big bubble waiting to pop. Especially because there is nothing to back up these exorbitant prices (quality, exclusivity, etc.).

 

Wim Wakker

Concertina Connection Inc.

Wakker Concertinas

Posted
I've never been able to sign up to the "concedrtinas cost x thousands, the world's about to end" idea, because the finest concertinas are still worth far less than their equivalents in other musical phyla. You might buy one as an investment but there are other instruments that would pay better. I think the demand is driven by musicians, and as the demand grows then we are seeing a market develop for the mid-range makers too. Jolly good, say I.

 

Chris

 

You are, of course, quite right. But I think that when people - especially beginner players - complain about concertina prices, the issue isn't necessarily the cost of top-of-the-range instruments but the distribution of prices over the whole range. Although the prices of most orchestral instruments range much higher than those of concertinas, they also start (with good, solid, playable instruments) much lower, and have a much more complete range of increasingly good quality instruments for increasing prices. Of course, this is changing for the better in the concertina market at the moment, with beginner boxes like the jackie etc. and hybrid boxes filling out the middle range - but perhaps still hasn't quite reached the range offered for more popular instruments.

Posted

The price of something new is determined by what it cost to make, (labour, materials, etc) plus a mark up for the wholesaler, retailer and added government taxes. The price of something secondhand is determined by two factors, supply and demand and the perceived quality of the item. Anglos are more in demand than ECs and duets at the moment. Far fewer anglos seem to have been made in the heyday of the concertina, than the EC, for example. The popularity of the anglo has meant that there is a scarcity of period instruments, especially good ones, which is why all modern concertina manufacturers' outputs are anglos, to meet the current fashion and demand for them. Some makes of anglo, such as the Jefferies and Wheatstone Linota model, have acquired a reputation for being very good (for whatever reason) and therefore very sought after. When one does come up for sale, the price it commands seems to depend on who can afford to pay the most money for it, rather than a more realistic price, related to what second concertinas fetch in general. A secondhand 48 key wooden-ended Edeophone treble in excellent condition, can be bought from Barleycorn Concertinas for £1800. This is the top of the range Lachenal model. It has far more reeds than the average anglo, yet a comparable secondhand anglo, such as a Jefferies, will often fetch 3 or more times that price, despite not costing as much as a treble to make when new. Even an ordinary 30 key metal-ended Lachenal anglo will set you back £2000, from Barleycorn. If duets suddenly became the must-have concertina, I'm sure the price would rocket. Personally, I wouldn't buy a concertina as an investment, in the hope that it's value would go up and up. Look what happened to vintage cars many years ago. Suddenly the bottom dropped out of the market and people couldn't even sell them for what they paid to have them restored. I bought my concertina to play it. As long as I look after it and it holds its value, I am happy.

 

Chris

Posted
A friend of mine in L.A. bought a Dipper restored Jeffries for about $12,500

I have to say that seems quite a lot of dosh to me too, certainly more than I can afford, but as the owner of a Dipper restored Jeffries G/D I can say that he has the consolation of playing a superb instrument. I'm head over heels in love with mine!

 

Chris

My G/D Jeffries was Connor restored and I love it. I've held Chris's but the straps were a bit loose for me. It is a beauty though.

Posted

Wim says that a lot of concertina pricing is due to "myths & misunderstandings." I totally agree. Since a concertina is to be used (played), its value should be determined by its playability, and tone. Many of the vintage instruments do not live up to the myths of vintage instrument superiority with either, especially playability. Many are leaky, have noisy mechanisms, don't have the best reed response and have uneven tone (the latter due in part to reedpan warpage.) Yet these same instruments are bought for thousands by people who have bought into the idea that because it is a vintage instrument, it somehow has to be better than a new so-called "hybrid" instrument. Some vintage instruments are indeed excellent, but these are not necessarily the majority. I have met owners of some comparitively new (10 + years old) modern vintage-style instruments. Even these fine instruments need maintenance from time to time. I remember one such person who handed me his XXX concertina with pride. It was very difficult for me to play because it had (pad?) leaks, and it was impossible to sustain a note for more than a very few seconds. Yet you would have thought it was gold to him, because he had a XXX concertina and it was worth $xxxx. In this case and many others perception outdoes reality. It was potentially a very good instrument, but not in the then-present state. Some vintage instruments were never good in the first place. I was given a beaten-up Lachenal anglo by a dealer in Ireland who wanted me to repair it so he could sell it. The end bolts were steel and rusted in. the reeds, once it was taken apart, I realised were brass, with such sloppy tolerances that you could "drive a truck" through them. The mahogany ends had 1/16th inch cracks in them. I did all I could without totally rebuilding the instrument as I had a limited budget to work with. By that I mean that the dealer gave me a maximum price he was willing to pay for any work done. It played worse than a cheap Chinese instrument in spite of what I could do, due to the inferior reeds and curled reedpans. I would have retired it totally, but he was able to get a couple of thousand Euros for it in Ireland. After all, it was a vintage instrument!

Posted
Wim says that a lot of concertina pricing is due to "myths & misunderstandings." I totally agree. Since a concertina is to be used (played), its value should be determined by its playability, and tone. Many of the vintage instruments do not live up to the myths of vintage instrument superiority with either, especially playability. Many are leaky, have noisy mechanisms, don't have the best reed response and have uneven tone (the latter due in part to reedpan warpage.) Yet these same instruments are bought for thousands by people who have bought into the idea that because it is a vintage instrument, it somehow has to be better than a new so-called "hybrid" instrument. Some vintage instruments are indeed excellent, but these are not necessarily the majority. I have met owners of some comparitively new (10 + years old) modern vintage-style instruments. Even these fine instruments need maintenance from time to time. I remember one such person who handed me his XXX concertina with pride. It was very difficult for me to play because it had (pad?) leaks, and it was impossible to sustain a note for more than a very few seconds. Yet you would have thought it was gold to him, because he had a XXX concertina and it was worth $xxxx. In this case and many others perception outdoes reality. It was potentially a very good instrument, but not in the then-present state. Some vintage instruments were never good in the first place. I was given a beaten-up Lachenal anglo by a dealer in Ireland who wanted me to repair it so he could sell it. The end bolts were steel and rusted in. the reeds, once it was taken apart, I realised were brass, with such sloppy tolerances that you could "drive a truck" through them. The mahogany ends had 1/16th inch cracks in them. I did all I could without totally rebuilding the instrument as I had a limited budget to work with. By that I mean that the dealer gave me a maximum price he was willing to pay for any work done. It played worse than a cheap Chinese instrument in spite of what I could do, due to the inferior reeds and curled reedpans. I would have retired it totally, but he was able to get a couple of thousand Euros for it in Ireland. After all, it was a vintage instrument!

 

There is undoubtedly much mystique attached to the perceived image of vintage Concertinas, but the best Concertinas are surely simply those which have the best tone and action and consequently, in competent hands, are able to produce the finest music...irrespective of their age ? It is illogical to directly relate an instrument's value to it's age. How much renovation/re-building work employing modern materials should be permitted to an ancient instrument before it ceases to qualify as 'vintage' ?

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