Anglo prices

[michael sam wild]

I thought the 'fool' said he went to work on a BMX! Not a good idea on our busy roads.

Glad the discussion has been so energetic.

[jdms]

... I also think it is obvious that a BMW bike costs more than a cheap workaday car...

 

Contributing to thread drift, I would point out that ownership of a BMW motorcycle does not mean wealth or sacrifice of one enthusiasm in favor of another; I do not know what BMW Mikefule has, but I've seen nothing to establish that it is (or, admittedly, that it isn't) a new one. I own a BMW myself--a 1995 R1100RS, which I bought used in 1997 for a bit more than half the price of a new cheap workaday car. I had previously owned another BMW, a 1976 R90/6, which I bought in 1993 when it was worth about a quarter to a fifth the price of a new cheap workaday car (the seller was my cousin, who gave me a very good price) and less than most decent used ones. Older BMWs are widely available and often belong to people who are by no stretch of the imagination wealthy, but want a well-built machine that someone with a decent set of hand tools can maintain. My choice to own a BMW has no more effect than any other motorcycle on whether I have enough money go out and buy a Wheatstone or a Suttner--indeed, because I bought my current one nearly a decade before I took up the concertina, it has none except to the extent that I could sell it and put the money toward something fancier than my Morse Ceili if I so desired (I could probably get the value of a decent 30-button Lachenal for it now). I'm saving up for traditionally-reeded instrument in addition to the Morse--it's only my low income that's keeping my case of CAD in abeyance so far...but whatever the case, I am both a BMW rider and a concertina player, and neither fact by itself says more about my financial situation than that I can afford more than the bare necessities.

 

Joshua Mackay-Smith

[wim wakker]

Everyone seems to think that all high priced vintage instruments are of high quality. The point I wanted to make is that this is not true.

When a Jeffries or Wheatstone comes on the market and has a high asking price, no one seems to think of asking for prove of quality (e.g. restoration report/history or reed performance evaluation), which is common with many other musical instruments.

 

Because of the lack of instrument documentation, a fair number of instruments that are part of this high priced anglo pool, I am inclined to say that 20%, maybe even more depending on what you consider ‘good’, are of average or slightly better quality.

 

Because concertinas are mechanical instruments, they are subject to wear and material deterioration. There is no material quality difference between an 80+ year old Wheatstone, Lachenal or Jeffries. Not to mention the shock of extreme humidity changes instruments have to suffer when shipped to a different climate.

 

Wim Wakker

Concertina Connection Inc.

Wakker Concertinas

[michael sam wild]

Someone warned of a scammer who might have bought a concertina and then removed reeds from it and replaced them with inferior ones before returning the instrument and asking for money back. Do we all check inside and how would one know about a Jeffries or Wheatstone reed?. Some may have been historically replaced, lots seem to be retuned eg in conversion to C/G to meet current demand. A bit sad that one. I'd like a Bb/F etc one day

Edited October 27, 2009 by michael sam wild

[Guest Peter Laban]

Everyone seems to think that all high priced vintage instruments are of high quality. The point I wanted to make is that this is not true.

When a Jeffries or Wheatstone comes on the market and has a high asking price, no one seems to think of asking for prove of quality (e.g. restoration report/history or reed performance evaluation), which is common with many other musical instruments.

 

I would think genuine players who buy an instrument in the higher mid and higher price ranges sit down with the instrument and play it extensively, compare it with other instruments on offer and come armed with a screw driver to have a look at what the insides are like. Most players I know go about buying instruments that way anyhow.

 

Anyone buying a top (price) range instrument based on a soundclip and a picture on e-bay or based on a name or hearsay would seem foolish to me, whether buying any old concertina or a contemporary one.

[Dirge]

Everyone seems to think that all high priced vintage instruments are of high quality. The point I wanted to make is that this is not true.

When a Jeffries or Wheatstone comes on the market and has a high asking price, no one seems to think of asking for prove of quality (e.g. restoration report/history or reed performance evaluation), which is common with many other musical instruments.

 

I would think genuine players who buy an instrument in the higher mid and higher price ranges sit down with the instrument and play it extensively, compare it with other instruments on offer and come armed with a screw driver to have a look at what the insides are like. Most players I know go about buying instruments that way anyhow.

 

Anyone buying a top (price) range instrument based on a soundclip and a picture on e-bay or based on a name or hearsay would seem foolish to me, whether buying any old concertina or a contemporary one.

 

In the past we've seen wrecked Jeffries on Ebay that haven't a full set of reeds, or are really badly rusted They get talked about here and my impression from what everyone says is that they sell at prices that are going to put them in the top bracket once repair costs are factored in. My conclusion from that has been that, for a lot of Jeffries owners, the most important thing was to be able to tell their mates that they owned one, not how it played.

[Guest Peter Laban]

for a lot of Jeffries owners

 

For some certainly, for 'most' well, maybe not. Snobbery was mentioned in the early stages of this discussion.

 

Maybe it's just an internet thing but when I was learning to play people said they played their flute, concertina, pipes or whatnot. These days it's 'here I am playing some tunes on my 1867 36 button Dipper restored Jefrries/8 key cocuswood Rudall & Rose #4711 / my pearwood seven keys Rogge chanter with Froment drones (made of vintage ebony) and nicklesilver keyed Gallagher regulators and Wooff bellows.

 

People like to buy into the image, that's for sure.

[JimLucas]

Maybe it's just an internet thing but when I was learning to play people said they played their flute, concertina, pipes or whatnot. These days it's 'here I am playing some tunes on my 1867 36 button Dipper restored Jefrries/8 key cocuswood Rudall & Rose #4711 / my pearwood seven keys Rogge chanter with Froment drones (made of vintage ebony) and nicklesilver keyed Gallagher regulators and Wooff bellows.

 

People like to buy into the image, that's for sure.

The globalization of media -- and especially the internet -- over the last couple of decades has certainly resulted in some major cultural changes. And at least some of these have been effected by individuals (owners, producers, advertisers, etc.) with the ability to influence content in the major media promoting their own personal fetishes until their very intrusivenes is perceived as popularity. And I think we all know how "popularity" attracts followers and imitators.

 

One cultural change is that something which has always been a factor now seems to have become a cornerstone of culture, first in the US and then globally,... the concept that publicity is more to be admired than ability, and that prominence is more desired than competence (which even seems to be despised by many). The recent "balloon boy" incident seems to be yet another example of that phenomenon.

 

Of course, not everyone has completely bought into this "new culture". We ourselves are proof of that, and not just because we play an instrument that's neither "popular" nor even widely known, but also in the way we interact with each other here on Concertina.net. As for "the rest of the world", one can see that many others have indeed swallowed the new line, but it's hard to gauge the fraction, because outside of our own circles of friends and local acquaintances, the only ones we are likely to know about are those we learn about through the major media... which are just the ones that those media choose to present to us.

 

There are definitely instrument owners who "buy into the image", yet there are still those among us who don't... both individuals who play "lesser" instruments (including some who play them very well) and individuals who play exceptionally fine instruments but don't make a big deal of it.

 

What effect any of this has on concertina prices, either collectively or individually, looks to me to be pure guesswork.

[Kautilya]

I thought the 'fool' said he went to work on a BMX! Not a good idea on our busy roads.

Glad the discussion has been so energetic.

 

BMX - BMW -- there are some Honda touring riders out here who also squeeze the odd button but we do worry for the BMW riders after seeing this (a little lighthearted relief in the middle of the concertina price wars) and you will also learn that ebay has been around a lot longer than you might think

 

 

[yankeeclipper]

What a batch of rambling, paranoid, snobbish/reverse snobbish, blaming and self-justifying nonsense! Most instruments are bought and sold at market value, period.

 

If an instrument is worth only £X to you, and £X+ to someone else, it doesn't mean that you're wise and they're foolish - it simply means that you're below market value. Blaming concertina prices on unnamed and unidentified "collectors" - implying that "collectors" are evil and rich, and "players" are good and impoverished - is an exercise in whining self-justification for the fact that you cannot (or will not) pony up the cash for a better concertina. And the implication here that "vintage" instruments are generally worn out and inferior is simply self-serving. There are good, mediocre and bad old concertinas, and there are good, mediocre and bad contemporary concertinas. The free market does a pretty good job of sorting them out.

 

Buy what you can afford, enjoy what you get, andcaveat emptor.

[Boney]

What a batch of rambling, paranoid, snobbish/reverse snobbish, blaming and self-justifying nonsense!

Much of the same ground has been tread here before about three years ago.

[david_boveri]

Everyone seems to think that all high priced vintage instruments are of high quality. The point I wanted to make is that this is not true.

When a Jeffries or Wheatstone comes on the market and has a high asking price, no one seems to think of asking for prove of quality (e.g. restoration report/history or reed performance evaluation), which is common with many other musical instruments.

 

Because of the lack of instrument documentation, a fair number of instruments that are part of this high priced anglo pool, I am inclined to say that 20%, maybe even more depending on what you consider ‘good’, are of average or slightly better quality.

 

Because concertinas are mechanical instruments, they are subject to wear and material deterioration. There is no material quality difference between an 80+ year old Wheatstone, Lachenal or Jeffries. Not to mention the shock of extreme humidity changes instruments have to suffer when shipped to a different climate.

 

Wim Wakker

Concertina Connection Inc.

Wakker Concertinas

 

i prefer new instruments, myself. i have never played a jeffries that i wanted more than the concertina i currently own. although, there was a low D on a jeffries that i severely covet, but the instrument as a whole was no comparison to what i can have for half the price!

[Daniel Hersh]

Arrgh, not that thread again...even nastier than this one.

 

Much of the same ground has been tread here before about three years ago.

[Guest Peter Laban]

even nastier than this one.

 

What exactly is perceived as 'nasty' about the present discussion? There's a discussion of points of view with which anyone can agree or disagree as they please.

[TomB-R]

Maybe it's just an internet thing but when I was learning to play people said they played their flute, concertina, pipes or whatnot. These days it's 'here I am playing some tunes on my 1867 36 button Dipper restored Jefrries/8 key cocuswood Rudall & Rose #4711 / my pearwood seven keys Rogge chanter with Froment drones (made of vintage ebony) and nicklesilver keyed Gallagher regulators and Wooff bellows.

 

People like to buy into the image, that's for sure.

 

While it could sometimes be image/snobbery, I think it's often just anorakism, fascination with the details of a chosen activity.

In the (US in particular) mandolin world I was surprised to find that players love to know the exact species of wood that make up their instrument and will agonise over the timber choices before ordering a custom build, (and that's before you start on components!)

 

"Mostly harmless" I'd suggest.

[Guest Peter Laban]

While it could sometimes be image/snobbery, I think it's often just anorakism, fascination with the details of a chosen activity.

In the (US in particular) mandolin world I was surprised to find that players love to know the exact species of wood that make up their instrument and will agonise over the timber choices before ordering a custom build, (and that's before you start on components!)

 

"Mostly harmless" I'd suggest.

 

I realise that ofcourse but still find it somewhat weird but I'd be more interested in what the players brings over than what tool he is using. A friend from the US told me once people wouldn't be given a look in (in some sessions in Seattle) if they appeared with anything cheaper than a $150 Burke Tinwhistle. Which can be the consequence of this type of anorakism.

[David Levine]

Bitterness. Envy. Greed. Jealousy. Avarice.

It isn't fair.

You have more than I have.

I want what you have.

You have more, therefore I have less.

Jesus, we aren't even talking about food or medical care or education.

Or music.

We're just talking about things.

[Dirge]

Bitterness. Envy. Greed. Jealousy. Avarice.

It isn't fair.

You have more than I have.

I want what you have.

You have more, therefore I have less.

Jesus, we aren't even talking about food or medical care or education.

Or music.

We're just talking about things.

 

 

Now you're being boring. My life isn't about food or medical care or education. It's about Maccan duet concertinas and Morgan 3 wheelers. Others may not have the same priorities but you take my point...

 

Do quite like good food though. Especially with a nice Hawkes Bay Pinot.