Anglo prices

[michael sam wild]

I have an old fiddle and needed it valuing so recently went on a viloin dealer's site where they make no bones about old top class instruments as investment opportunities in a time of recession.. Things end up in bank vaults when that happens. Once things reach a certain price people buy them on value as with paintings.

 

I bought and sold melodeons to get the money for my first concertina. I always tried to put them on eBay starting at 99p and let the market decide, as I thought the volume of potential buyers was large enough for an unrigged market. However , if it was an expensive box I put a starting price on it or a reserve as I couldn't afford the risk ( and i would honour the sale). I seem to be in good company with that approach to valuable instruments but the start price has to be a realistic reflection of what the marketplace is doing.

 

Do fair markets exist anywhere . Are we, the conc. community , guilty of hiking prices or just being sensible?

 

By the way I asked my friend Brian Howard who makes pipes, at our session yesterday, if the Irish recession etc was having an effect and he said that makers' prices seem to stay the same , adding that people just spend their redundancy money on a good instrument and get stuck in.

Edited October 26, 2009 by michael sam wild

[hjcjones]

A concertina is worth what somebody is prepared to pay for it.

And what someone else is willing to sell it for. What is it "worth" if the seller is willing to sell it (for whatever reason) at a lower price than the buyer is actually willing to pay? In fact, isn't that how eBay works? The winning bidder rarely pays the amount they've registered as their upper limit, but only some (usually lesser) increment above the next-highest bidder's maximum.

 

Exactly. Worth is the value to the individual. A transaction will only take place if an item is worth more to the buyer than it is to the seller. Between them they fix a price which both are happy with. The best deals are where the seller gets more than he thinks its worth and the buyer pays less than he thinks its worth.

 

However a single transaction doesn't help you to establish the market value. Both the buyer and seller may have their own reasons for arriving at their own opinions of worth. It is only when you have a number of transactions that you can arrive at an idea of value. This is complicated because not all transactions take place at the same time, and values change over time, and because the items may not be identical - especially in the case of concertinas

 

I think the concept of "the market" is in error. In the realm of vintage concertinas, both supply and demand are very limited, and a great many transactions still occur somewhere other than eBay. "The market" is neither homogeneous nor fully informed. It is not "effiicient", as Wall Street economists like to say.

 

And that is the reality of "the market" in concertinas. While there may be a price range within which most instruments of a given type and quality may be expected to sell, there is neither enforcement nor guarantee that any given instrument will change hands at a price within that range. With the rarer concertinas, there isn't even an assurance that an instrument of a particular type will be available for purchase within the would-be buyer's lifetime.

 

You're right. However it is true to say that the market is more "efficient" than it used to be, with at least some transactions either taking place or being discussed in the public domain. This makes it very hard even for dealers or professional valuers who are closely involved in the market to gather enough evidence of transactions to base their opinions of value on. It is even harder for the average player to form an opinion of market value, and both buyers and sellers may arrive at opinions of worth which are higher than actual market evidence might suggest is the true value. When you couple this with the uncertainty of knowing when rare instruments might come up for sale, it is very easy for this to become self-fulfilling and for a "bubble" to arise in the market. We have seen this in housing as well as in concertinas, and for similar reasons.

 

The market is also inefficient in that in many cases both buyers and sellers have incomplete information, not just about the market but about concertinas. For example, the market is currently driven by a perception that Jeffries concertinas are simply the best and people will bid more just for the Jeffries name, whereas anyone who's handled a few will realise that there are some real clunkers out there (not to mention a few fakes).

 

And even with comparable instruments, prices can vary considerably from one auction to the next... even on eBay. After all, if only two individuals are willing to pay an "exorbitant" price for a particular kind of instrument, then the next one that comes up for sale won't fetch that same price. (Two individuals, because only one won't bid the price up. )

 

Yes, because as I've explained one transaction alone doesn't establish value, only price. And each successful transaction removes another potential buyer from the market. However while demand continues to exceed supply other buyers will come into the market.

 

My point is that it is fruitless to complain about high concertina prices, they are simply the effect of a free, if inefficient, market. Bear in mind that while some purchasers may have paid more than an instrument's market value, they are unlikely to have paid more than it's worth to them, unless they got totally carried away at an auction.

 

It's another matter to complain that concertinas are too expensive for you to afford. But that's partly a question of your own opinion of what a concertina is worth to you. If you put greater worth on owning a vintage concertina, especially one of a particular make, then you may have to pay more than if you are prepared to wait (and save) for a modern instrument. That's entirely your choice.

[chiton1]

Stop whining about concertina prices. This discussion we have every year, and I it really goes nowhere. Face the reality. A good instrument (and I mean all instruments and not only concertinas) costs money.

And if somebody wants to collect concertinas it is his choice. I also find a pity if he doesn't play them.... but hey there are museums full of great instruments that are never or seldom played, nobody naggs about that... This is a free world (or it should be). Anyway when the collector dies his huge collection of concertinas will come on the market and prices will fall

I just bought a wonderful wooden ended Aeola treble concertina from Chris Algar. It cost me no more than a good new D flute from one of the better flute makers. But still a considerable amount of money (I am eating potatoes only for the rest of the month). But I had the choice between 5 similar instruments and was able to buy the one I found best.

Let me finish with two remarks: First, when you were buying a concertina in 1916 (the date of my last concertina I bought) it would certainly not have been cheaper (at least not ECs)! Second, those who bought concertinas when prices were low (because the demand was too) are probably not willing to pass them on to starting concertina players for the same amount they payed it for. Which in my view is no problem, as long as they are not among the people whining about the prices one must pay now. And if they do I take of my hat and bow for them.

Edited October 26, 2009 by chiton1

[hjcjones]

I don't know what instrument you are playing, but if you have enough money for a computer, an expensive BMW motorcycle, and even a middling sort of concertina -- and time to "fool" with Morris men and ride a unicycle cross-country – then I bet you could afford an upgrade if you wanted one. You've chosen to do these things and drive an expensive motorbike rather than buy a better instrument. You might not choose to spend your money on the better concertina, but that's your choice, and not the fault of collectors. I don't know any collectors who don't also play. They don't choose to buy BMW motorbikes. They choose to buy another concertina.

 

Fool doesn't go in quotes any more than "play" does when referring to what you do with your concertina. Apart from that, I'll take a break from Concertina net if it's going to become so personal that people are commenting in such detail on my other hobbies and interests in that way.

 

Can I join Jim in urging you to reconsider your reaction to David's post. I believe that his putting "fool" in quotes was deliberate, and indicates that it should not be interpreted as derogative. I saw at as a possible pun on part of your username.

 

David's point is that it is about priorities. We all have limited resources and have to prioritise how we apportion those between our various interests. In your case, if what David is saying is accurate, you have chosen to devote some of your resources to other interests. You could have made other choices and then you possibly could afford to upgrade. No one believes you are wrong to make those choices, or that they are trivial - only you can be the judge of that.

 

Nevertheless, I think you are wrong to say you will never be able to afford to upgrade. To get a high-quality modern instrument you might have to pay $5-6000. That's a lot of money, but you will probably have to wait several years for it, which gives you time to save. With say a 5 year wait, that means saving $100 a month - still a lot, but this assumes you have no other savings, and don't have an instrument you can sell to offset the cost. You could even take out a loan, or extend the delivery period. If you have your heart set on a vintage instrument, then you can still start saving now.

 

I'm not saying that everyone can afford a high-quality instrument, but for most people who earn enough to put something aside regularly, who are prepared to wait, and who are prepared to sacrifice other things, it should be achievable in time. But of course, if you choose to spend your money on other things besides concertinas, that is entirely your choice and no one should criticise you for it.

[david_boveri]

I don't know what instrument you are playing, but if you have enough money for a computer, an expensive BMW motorcycle, and even a middling sort of concertina -- and time to "fool" with Morris men and ride a unicycle cross-country – then I bet you could afford an upgrade if you wanted one. You've chosen to do these things and drive an expensive motorbike rather than buy a better instrument. You might not choose to spend your money on the better concertina, but that's your choice, and not the fault of collectors. I don't know any collectors who don't also play. They don't choose to buy BMW motorbikes. They choose to buy another concertina.

 

Fool doesn't go in quotes any more than "play" does when referring to what you do with your concertina. Apart from that, I'll take a break from Concertina net if it's going to become so personal that people are commenting in such detail on my other hobbies and interests in that way.

 

 

I think he did it to distinguish a pejorative use from the role in morris of The Fool or jester ( for non-morris types!)

 

it seems to me that no matter what, morris dancing ends up offending people on accident! it's such an innocent activity, too...

[Mikefule]

OK, I overreacted yesterday, and I apologise.

 

I had had a long day, just got back from a long journey, and came here for ten minutes, just to relax among friends - only to find what seemed at the time to be somewhere between a personal attack and a lecture. I found it slightly alarming to find that a complete stranger had either remembered so much about me or (worse) gone to the trouble to find out, just to make such a personal post. On reflection this morning, I realised that the information was in my forum profile - so I can hardly complain if someone refers to it.

 

The "fool" in quotes comment was a mixture of jest and irritation, which is always a dangerous combination. I'm sorry.

 

For what it's worth, the motorbike is worth less than my concertina, and is used every day for work and seldom used for anything else. And it's not paid for, and it's worth less than I owe on it.

 

My concertina was the biggest "leap of faith" in my purchasing career. I spent a four figure sum on something I couldn't play, having failed with various other instruments over 25 years. Fortunately, I fell in love with the concertina, and I do not regret the purchase.

 

My own post that prompted David's response was carefully written to be balanced, using words like "some" and "sometimes" and italics for emphasis. I was putting forward a point of view without blaming any individual or attacking anyone in particular. That is why I was shocked by how personal the reply seemed to be.

 

I have met people who collect concertinas without playing them. Common sense says that 10 concertinas lying unplayed on someone's shelf is 10 concertinas not available for other people to play.

 

Supply and demand is often referred to as a "law" but that doesn't make it either right or wrong. It is just a phenomenon, with many benefits and many disadvantages. The "market place" keeps some people starving, and others working long hours in sweatshops. It also gives fantastic opportunities to those with the opportunities and enterprise to make it work.

 

I don't resent anyone having an expensive box, and believe me, if I won the lottery, I would buy the best two boxes I could find - 2 for variety of keys. I don't mind paying a fair price for a new one.

 

As for making sacrifices, etc. I have no problem with that, but my point was that it is irritating that the price I might have to pay for a vintage box is inflated by the fact that the supply is reduced by those who collect but don't play. Whether that is 1% or 50% of the price, I'm sure there is an effect there.

[Guest Peter Laban]

As for making sacrifices, etc. I have no problem with that, but my point was that it is irritating that the price I might have to pay for a vintage box is inflated by the fact that the supply is reduced by those who collect but don't play. Whether that is 1% or 50% of the price, I'm sure there is an effect there.

 

I think it is silly to deny the existence of collectors who keep instruments on the shelf or people barely able to play setting themselves up with top of the range instruments, effectively keeping them out of the hands of those who are well able to play them. It's a bit of a hot potato talking about it, I know and we've been there before many times both here and on other forums.

 

A well known Irish fluteplayer/teacher once went off on a great heartfelt tirade against Dublin 4 parents who needed a top of the range Jeffries sitting in the sideboard for everyone to admire, just in case the off-spring felt like having a go. And she is the partner of a man who supplies, concertinas and other instruments to many top Irish players a well as to young aspiring ones.

[Azalin]

As for making sacrifices, etc. I have no problem with that, but my point was that it is irritating that the price I might have to pay for a vintage box is inflated by the fact that the supply is reduced by those who collect but don't play. Whether that is 1% or 50% of the price, I'm sure there is an effect there.

 

My own question would be: why are you only talking about vintage concertinas, when there are great concertina makers alive today who make amazing boxes. I haven't tried hundreds of concertinas, but I doubt I'll ever find an instrument I like as much as my Dipper. You can simply get on a waitng list, save money and get a new instrument at a fair price from the makers.

[Mikefule]

My own question would be: why are you only talking about vintage concertinas, when there are great concertina makers alive today who make amazing boxes. I haven't tried hundreds of concertinas, but I doubt I'll ever find an instrument I like as much as my Dipper. You can simply get on a waitng list, save money and get a new instrument at a fair price from the makers.

 

But the debate isn't "how can Mike afford a concertina" but "why is it so expensive?" One factor among many is that some people (I am not alone in this) feel that the market is distorted by some people hoarding but not playing them. I could be right, I could be wrong. I can't do much about it, but I don't have to like it.

 

I spent last winter with only one small portable heater in the house, and after many years living here, still have neither decorations nor carpets. That brand new Dipper is a long way away.

[David Levine]

Just to answer a couple of comments.

 

My intent is not to flame you, Mike. But I take exception to people who plead poverty on the net (“I will never be able to afford, etc”). So I looked at your profile. That is where I read that you were a “fool” for a Morris team. That is why I used the word. You have since taken down your profile. I didn’t call you a “fool” except in the sense that you yourself used it- fooling around. If your choice is to do that - and to ride a unicycle across England - with your time I respect that. I also think it is obvious that a BMW bike costs more than a cheap workaday car. I think that this is why you don’t have enough money for a better instrument, rather than the “hoarding” that you accuse straw-men of doing.

 

Now we have Peter, who knows of a person in Dublin who has a fine old concertina that nobody plays. So what? It may be the case that collectors are driving up the price of vintage instruments- but I doubt that. While there may one or two people here and there who have bought an old Jeffries or Wheatstone, all of the ones I know that were sold on the open market in the past few years were bought by players or dealers and not by collectors. And dealers have no more access to the open market (Ebay, internet lists, classified ads) than you do.

 

Finally, as Azalin has pointed out, collectors do not have any effect on the current market for contemporary concertinas. You get on a list and you pay your money- it’s a lot less than for a vintage instrument. You may choose not to buy one of these. But your financial condition, and your inability to afford a better instrument, is totally irrelevant as regards collectors.

[Larry Stout]

Interestingly I think that for English concertinas the price of new ones is higher than the price of vintage, at least for instruments with traditional concertina reeds. That may be because fewer people are making EC's than anglos or it may be because vintage anglos are pulling in higher prices than vintage EC's.

[JimLucas]

Interestingly I think that for English concertinas the price of new ones is higher than the price of vintage, at least for instruments with traditional concertina reeds. That may be because fewer people are making EC's than anglos or it may be because vintage anglos are pulling in higher prices than vintage EC's.

I don't think "fewer people making" is a huge factor, since all the people who are making them also make anglos. But a standard English has 48 buttons, as opposed to 30 for the standard anglo. That's more than half again as many reeds, levers, buttons, chambers, etc., so it's somewhat more in materials and labor, with labor being the more expensive resource.

 

But the main difference is that the current demand for quality -- and particularly vintage -- anglos is so great (much greater than for Englishes or duets) that it has pushed up the price considerably. In one sense, the entire market for these instruments has become an auction, and the "bidding" has been intense.

[Guest Peter Laban]

Now we have Peter, who knows of a person in Dublin who has a fine old concertina that nobody plays. So what?

 

That is not what I said David. Bad reading leads to sloppy replies.

[Chris Timson]

My own question would be: why are you only talking about vintage concertinas, when there are great concertina makers alive today who make amazing boxes. I haven't tried hundreds of concertinas, but I doubt I'll ever find an instrument I like as much as my Dipper. You can simply get on a waitng list, save money and get a new instrument at a fair price from the makers.

Colin has told me that they charge less than they could get or have been offered for their concertinas as a matter of conviction. They don't want to price their instruments out of the hands of all but the wealthy. The following they haven't said, but my reading of Colin and Rosalie's characters is that if they know someone on their waiting list is either a collector or is buying for resale, then they'll be on that list for quite a while. The Dippers are honourable people (a statement I am glad to say I believe to be true about almost all the current makers).

 

Chris

[David Levine]

Right Peter, sorry about that. I reread what you said. My response is the same. In any case, it's just more hearsay. What's the point? And it is sloppy not to identify your sources.

I don't know any people like that ("...parents who needed a top of the range Jeffries sitting in the sideboard for everyone to admire, just in case the off-spring felt like having a go...") but I don't run in such elevated company. In any case I hardly think there are enough of them to matter in the price of vintage instruments.

[Guest Peter Laban]

I presented an anecdote David, of someone going off on a passionate rant about the buying of top range instruments. Which at the time was funny in it's own right and rang pretty much true. The context was myself and the family playing through the stock of a top range instrument supplier to pick a concertina for the off-spring. The partner of the dealer making the argument, herself, with the partner supplying instruments to players (John Carty was in the next room trying a bunch of fiddles) and aspiring players and a considerable experience as a fluteplayer, teacher and Scoil Eigse organiser bringing considerable insight to the subject. Hearsay? Probably, but coming from someone who can boast more direct experience than many of us.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Peter Laban

[Hereward]

Regarding modern makers. It seems to me that, although they must make a living and have every to do so, they are also engaging in what we could call a labour of love, and such people will be worthy by virtue of that. I am certainly glad that they continue this old craft because we need instruments to be available to keep up this great hobby or pursuit of ours.

 

I had to make some serious cutbacks to afford my instrument and I don't regret any of them. Fortunately my wife liked the idea of a mellow concertina-playing Ian more than whatever else the money could have been used for.

 

Ian

[fidjit]

Oh Dear!

 

My tawdry, little mahogany 30 button, 1895, Lachenal now seems so cheap.

 

I only paid £50 for it in 1972 (out of tune) Chris Agar tuned it and shined it up for £100 in '93.

 

Also as I play other instruments and sing too, I've more than enough to do without thinking of an upgrade.

 

I enjoy my Lachenal. What's it worth today? £400 ?? However, I wouldn't consider parting with it for any price!

 

Mind you. I have upgraded my melodeons though. And even built two ! But thats another road entirely.

Edited October 28, 2009 by fidjit