Newbie With No Money: Should I Buy Elise Hayden, or Rochelle Anglo?

[J Werner]

Hi everyone. I am new here, and I want to learn the concertina, on a budget. I can only afford one of the $350 boxes from the Concertina Connection, and I'm wondering if I should get the Elise (34 key Hayden duet) or the Rochelle (30 key Anglo). I confess that if I were wealthy, I would order a Hayden duet from Wakker or someone like that (I think Wheatstone and Dipper make Haydens too?). However, considering my budget, I'm reluctant to start on a sub-standard Hayden if I'll never be able to afford the next step up, starting at $6000+ (Edit: Tedrow makes a Hayden for $4750 I guess, but still much more than an anglo). So, I'm considering the Rochelle Anglo, because I could see in the future spending $1200-$2500 for a step up to a hybrid anglo (Morse, Herrington or Edgley, probably). And, since the Anglo is more common, I might be able to meet people who play it, and to learn from others, etc. I currently play mandolin and tenor banjo (basically same tuning), and I read sheet music slowly but use sheet music on thesession.org often to learn new tunes.

 

Hayden players out there: will the Elise frustrate me, having so few keys (34)? I've noticed that all other Haydens have many more keys than that. Would I be embarking on a dead-end? I have not found any youtube videos or reviews of the Elise, only the Rochelle and Jack/Jackie. So, I haven't been able to find any assessment from Hayden players on how playable the Elise is. If anyone out there has played it, please offer some wisdom, thanks!

 

And, maybe this will solidify the Hayden for me: is someone ever going to make a mid-range hybrid Hayden that's more affordable? I've seen some murmurings of Morse developing something along these lines...

Edited October 6, 2009 by J Werner

[TomB-R]

Hi,

Nice dilemma!

If you're enjoying reading tunes over at thesession.org does that mean Irish music is your preference or do you have a liking for other traditions too?

 

(As I'm sure you know) Irish is primarily a single-line-tune tradition and is fairly Anglo-centric, which is not to say that there aren't excellent players on other systems. (Though I've never heard of a Duet system Irish player. My ignorance, no doubt.)

 

I'd have thought any duet system would have been more suited to a harmonised style of music, or will the Duet enthusiasts gently point out my error?

Tom

[J Werner]

Yeah, I've been getting more into irish traditional music lately, though I enjoy a number of other types -- folk, alt-country, bob dylan, etc. I come from a very German family and a very German town in Wisconsin, so polka is also in my blood, which I imagine would be better on the Hayden with om-pahs on one side and melody on the other. And, I don't see why not play Irish music on a duet, and certainly reading music would be simpler. But, yes, the prominence of the anglo in Irish music is a definite strong selling point for the Rochelle anglo.

[david_boveri]

Yeah, I've been getting more into irish traditional music lately, though I enjoy a number of other types -- folk, alt-country, bob dylan, etc. I come from a very German family and a very German town in Wisconsin, so polka is also in my blood, which I imagine would be better on the Hayden with om-pahs on one side and melody on the other. And, I don't see why not play Irish music on a duet, and certainly reading music would be simpler. But, yes, the prominence of the anglo in Irish music is a definite strong selling point for the Rochelle anglo.

 

well, oompah on the one side and melody on the other is definitely possible on the anglo. that is actually how many people play the anglo! especially in england. the most "oompah" sounds you could make are going to be in the key of C and G (on a C/G concertina). here is an example of melody on the right, and accompaniment on the left: http://daiv.boveri.googlepages.com/galloping.mp3 (sorry that i mess up the melody a bit, i usually play it in C, not G). i played that on 20 buttons... if you use more than 20 buttons, obviously you have more possibility. i don't play polka, however, so i can't tell you how easily you could play polka on the anglo, though the duet is probably more appropriate for polka.

 

as for irish music.... well, i'm somewhat of a traditionalist, and i believe irish music is best learnt by ear. i think that sheet music in irish music is only useful for someone who already knows how to play irish music--for everyone else it is a serious detriment to rhythm, style, and phrasing. i know that's tangential, but it's relevant, as i dont think being able to sight read easily should be a factor in deciding your instrument if you want to play irish music.

 

i think it would be a serious mistake to think that playing irish music on the hayden is going to be a piece of cake. irish music is extremely well suited for the anglo. anyone who plays it on another type of concertina has to work very hard to achieve the same effect. it is the same with the anglo for playing classical: for all the work i put into just trying to come up with scale fingerings for all twelve major scales on the anglo, i could have built a nice repertoire of classical music on the english or duet. i'm not exaggerating... it has taken me a good 3 years to even begin to be comfortable with playing simple pieces in all 12 keys, and it would have only taken a couple months for the english or weeks for the duet.

 

 

you will defintely have more flexibility in playing other music on the duet, that much is certain. so you have to weight how much you want to play irish music in addition to what you are already considering. i consider myself an irish musician (just not a very good one, ), so for me the anglo is a must. it opens up doors in irish music--teachers, books, friends, students, etc., that would never be open to me otherwise. if you are not so committed to irish music, and would rather peruse many genres, then the duet is probably a better choice if there were no other considerations.

[J Werner]

(...) i think it would be a serious mistake to think that playing irish music on the hayden is going to be a piece of cake. irish music is extremely well suited for the anglo. (...) it opens up doors in irish music--teachers, books, friends, students, etc., that would never be open to me otherwise. if you are not so committed to irish music, and would rather peruse many genres, then the duet is probably a better choice if there were no other considerations.

 

Thanks David, I am swaying more towards the anglo I think, for many of the reasons you mentioned. I wasn't imagining that playing ITM on the duet would sound anything like it does on the anglo; I'm sure it would be a different approach. I guess I was just thinking of playing the same notes I do on the mandolin with the added chords, etc, on the left hand. But maybe my idea of the difference in playing style is a bit naive...

 

And, yeah, I hear your point that sheet music doesn't get you nearly as far as playing by ear, but I'm in the stages of just learning ITM tunes (by myself), so in that context it's useful. Definitely need to find some more people to play with... Thanks!

[Jim Albea]

If you haven't already, you should check out this topic:

 

The new “Elise”, a 34 key Hayden Duet model

 

I have the Elise, the Stagi Hayden, and a Tedrow 52 Hayden on order. Yes, that's too many concertinas. When the Tedrow arrives, at least one of the other two has got to go. It is going to be tough choice.

 

I think you'll be quite happy with the Elise. It has a good crisp sound. Also, the much criticized Stagi should be seriously considered. It is built like a tank and is outfitted with the full 46-button hayden standard.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Jim Albea

[saguaro_squeezer]

If you're leaning towards Duets, you might also consider Mccann and (my favorite) Crane. The upgrade slope is a bit more gradual than Hayden's at the moment.

[J Werner]

If you haven't already, you should check out this topic:

 

The new “Elise”, a 34 key Hayden Duet model

 

I have the Elise, the Stagi Hayden, and a Tedrow 52 Hayden on order. Yes, that's too many concertinas. When the Tedrow arrives, at least one of the other two has got to go. It is going to be tough choice.

 

I think you'll be quite happy with the Elise. It has a good crisp sound. Also, the much criticized Stagi should be seriously considered. It is built like a tank and is outfitted with the full 46-button hayden standard.

 

Thanks Jim, the link to the Elise topic was very helpful! I wasn't able to find that using the search function for some reason. Lots of good comments in there...

 

You certainly do have many concertinas! It's good to hear the Stagi is actually a viable option, I was reluctant to consider spending $1000 on a brand with a bad reputation.

Edited October 6, 2009 by J Werner

[J Werner]

Just in case you're searching the forums with this question in mind, here is the outcome: I decided to go with the Elise Hayden duet. This was based on my desire to play multiple genres of music (including ITM, which hopefully this won't put me at too much of a disadvantage), accompany singing, change keys easily, and because I have experience reading music while playing other symmetrical instruments (mandolin, guitar). If my intent was to play mostly ITM, I definitely would have gotten the Rochelle. I guess I will now have to hope that when I start to outgrow the Elise, there will be some mid-range hybrid step-up haydens available from someone (Wim Wakker? Button Box?), otherwise I better start saving now for the $5k Tedrow Hayden. Thanks for the very helpful advise, everyone.

[david_boveri]

Just in case you're searching the forums with this question in mind, here is the outcome: I decided to go with the Elise Hayden duet. This was based on my desire to play multiple genres of music (including ITM, which hopefully this won't put me at too much of a disadvantage), accompany singing, change keys easily, and because I have experience reading music while playing other symmetrical instruments (mandolin, guitar). If my intent was to play mostly ITM, I definitely would have gotten the Rochelle. I guess I will now have to hope that when I start to outgrow the Elise, there will be some mid-range hybrid step-up haydens available from someone (Wim Wakker? Button Box?), otherwise I better start saving now for the $5k Tedrow Hayden. Thanks for the very helpful advise, everyone.

 

awesome! congrats on taking the plunge... i hope you enjoy it. please keep us updated. let me know if you ever make it down to chicago and want to go sessioning, it would be fun to have some tunes.

 

start saving now! it's not too bad... get another job, stop feeding your children, sell your favorite possessions... concertinas are more worthwhile fame, friends, and definitely automobiles.

[Dave Weinstein]

One advantage of long waiting lists...

 

 

...ok, the only advantage...

 

...you can place your order, and start saving based on the expected completion date.