LR71
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Posts posted by LR71
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32 button C/G, bone air button and drone C, Bb/Bb button on left and right I think (friend's instrument). I thought this had two serial numbers at first, one on each side: 188102 and 122102, as the left side stamp has 122 in one pan and 102 in the next, markings are faint, the last digit is crammed into a corner. But I think what looked like 188 is just a more forcibly stamped 122.
Stamped J.CRABB/EST 1890/etc on the bottom of one of the pans.
What is considered the golden age of Lachenal?
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Sorry, I meant the Wolverton, they make their own reeds for their advanced model.
Added Robin's instrument.
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BUMP
Up for sale once more. Note that I'm trimming $500 from what I paid originally; also I had lighter springs installed. So it's priced to move, I hope.
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Wolverton has a page with a bunch of layouts, fwiw. Don't know if there's anything unique there.
I was wondering about this topic and searched for info, and only stumbled on this thread by accident. Maybe it should be at the front of the site, like how melodeon.net's intro page has the layout pages right on the left sidebar.
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Added Roger's instruments. Is the Marcus a hybrid?
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Added that little Edgley. Does it have traditional reeds? Actually, all other things being equal, which weighs more - hybrid or trad?
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Thanks Alex. Perhaps other makers will chime in. That's interesting that Suttner would changeover like that, what players were asking for I'd reckon.
Also interesting that Jeffries somehow slapped together a 45 button that only weighed 1.5 kg. Perhaps after 38 it's mostly in the piccolo range?
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Curious about how much we're lugging around, I put together a table of weights. These are from posts here, and Suttner's website.
I rounded up to the nearest .1 kg, and converted kg to lbs. Usually no specifics are given, in particular whether it has metal or wood ends, so just rough estimates. And weight isn't everything. Still, I hope this is of interest.Carroll 30 key C/G 1.1 kg 2.4 lbs
Dipper Merlin 36 Key C/G 1.5 kg 3.3 lbs
Dipper Singswell 36 Key D/G 1.7 Kg 3.8 lbs
Edgley 30 key Bb/F 1.4 kg 3.2 lbs
Edgley Heritage Anglo 1.5 kg 3.3 lbsEdgley 24 key C/G 7 fold metal 1.3 kg 2.9 lbs
Edgley 30 button 7 fold G/D 1.4 kg 3.1 lbsFlying Duck Duckling, 20-button G/D hybrid, wooden ends, 6-fold bellows 1.1kg 2.4 lbs
Flying Duck Duckling, 22-button Bb/F hybrid, wooden ends, 7-fold bellows 1.2 kg 2.6lbs
Irish Concertina Co Silver Eiru 31 key C/G Wooden ends 7 fold Bellows 1.3 kg 2.9 lbs
Kensington 1.4 kg 3.1 lbs
Marcus de-luxe 30 key G/D wood/metal ends, 7-fold bellows 1.4kg 3.1 lbsMorse Ceili 1 kg 2.2 lbs
Norman 32 Key C/G 1.2 kg 2.7 lbs
Suttner rosewood/metal 1.3 kg 2.9 lbs
Suttner TC Rosewood Ends 1.2 kg 2.7 lbs
Suttner A4 38 Button Metal Ends 1.5 kg 3.4 lbsWolverton 30 key C/G wood/metal ends 7 fold bellows 1.4kg 3.1 lbs
Wolverton 40 key C/G metal ends 7 fold bellows concertina reeds 1.6 kg 3.5 lbs
Old table of Anglo weights (almost all vintage instruments)
And for good measure, some button diameters:
Standard classic size was 3/16" 4.7mm.
Metal buttons often 3/16" too, but if bone 6mm or 1/4" 6.35mm
Some Linotas 5.7mmIrish Concertina Co 5mm metal capped
Kensington 6.35I play a Kensington, thus that last.
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Planxty O'Reilly is actually a quite chipper major key tune in 6/8, also from the pen of T O'C. This number is likewise attributed to him, printed in 1842 as an "air or planxty."
This sounds a titch like the Hills of Coore, too.
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This is a super old topic, but I thought this was worth bringing up:
On 2/28/2009 at 1:22 PM, david_boveri said:noel hill has the best bellows/reed control of anyone i have ever heard, and he definitely does not fan, and is very strict on maintaining straight bellows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ3Lt6CaG48
try to keep the bellows stable (straight in, straight out), only using your palm or back of hand on the instrument. or any fingers on button. you will feel the muscles in your lower arm which you will need to use to stabilize the instrument, while your upper arm is applying the force/energy to move in and out.
try to keep the bellows stable (straight in, straight out), only using your palm or back of hand on the instrument. do not stabilize with the heel of your hand, or any fingers on button. you will feel the muscles in your lower arm which you will need to use to stabilize the instrument, while your upper arm is applying the force/energy to move in and out.
And then there's this comment on the session.org from "CAG" = Chris Ghent =
"Fan/lift. If you have the folds together you will find you can fan the concertina open without pulling on the straps by rolling the active end out and down using only the heel (the part directly back from your little finger) of your hand. You can lift it closed the same way with the heel of your hand. The part of the hand under the junction of the index finger and the palm does not do the work. That leads to the flappy thing.
The person who showed me this (Hugh Healey) demonstrated he could play the concertina this way without his hand in the strap. When you do this almost all of your hand is uninvolved in the rhythm process and is free to play in a relaxed fashion. When large parts of your hand are trying to hold a flappy thing steady then you can’t have relaxed fingers for the melody. Incidentally, as another exercise, Hugh made me loosen the straps to the point where they were essentially useless, forcing me to get control of the active end with the heel of my hand and the passive end with the side of my thumb."So you have two great players in the same genre giving wholly contradictory advice. Hugh is also a "backwards" player - right side on right knee, left in the air. So much for regimented methodology.
If you're unfamiliar with him cue up some footage. Again - great player.
Indeed I think cramming one and only one way of making music on an instrument down students' throats is downright destructive. I'm giving full time fanning a shot after trying everything else and finding that it helps immensely in keeping the music going.
What would be ideal of course would simply be a demonstration of all these ways of getting the reeds to go, who uses what, their pros and cons. There are plenty more factors in how to just play Irish music - other genres have their own goals and requirements.
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Thanks for these replies! I really hear the Wheatstone sound listening to Noel Hill or Chris Droney, and younger players too of course. But it's good to have it confirmed (not that there was much doubt in my mind) that other factors can play a large role - especially Frank's note about the shape of the reed.
Do your concertinas sound Linota-ish, Frank? I've only ever played a hybrid. Have you taken other steps to get a different, more unique sound?
And to be clear, I love the sound of any concertina - but the Wheatstones' really put out that nasality. I play other instruments and I'm sure if I thought about it I could come up with some good analogies - Fender vs Gibson electric guitar comes to mind.
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This is a super obvious difference between types of anglos, and one which I've maybe placed too much emphasis on - I don't care for the Wheatstone sound, both from records, and personal experience, as I own one, and have played a good few Carrolls. The word nasal says it all. If it were all there were I'd just accept it as what concertinas sound like, but my Kensington and other makes I've tried have a less piercing or bracing tone.
I assumed this was mostly due to the reed pan shape, but I've been reading up on what builders have to say and it doesn't really seem to be a big factor to them - they're much more prone to discuss materials, taper of reeds, volume/taper of pans, vents (whatever a vent in a reed is - still haven't figured that out), etc etc.
So, is pan shape a big deal? Could you make a radial pan instrument with a Jeffries-esque tone? Like I said this is the first thing I look for - since videos often have such lousy sound it's hard to tell what you're hearing. And I figured radial = nasal, thus don't bother.
I warned a friend about buying a Lachenal, assuming it would have that sound. Surprise surprise, it's pretty nice, sonically. But now I learn that they were sometimes built with parallel pans... maybe that's what that one has.
This except from Wakker's website is curious, too =
"The tonal differences are subtle. The radial design tends to sound "warmer" or "rounder" whereas the parallel design is a little more "direct" with a little "bite"."
Which leaves out anything regarding the nasality, which seems impossible to ignore.
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Looks like this same gizmo was discussed here 11 years ago. Note damage to fretwork near hand rests, or matching letters on buttons. Wonder if the poster from back then is the current seller.
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Hayden actually developed his system by taking a Jeffries duet and moving reeds around. As it happens it worked.
Being a player of jazz tunes on the "free bass" accordion (left side is single notes instead of preset chords) I bought a Jeffries duet, having read that they're suitable for complex chording. I don't find this daunting or forever baffling - the shapes of guitar chords are rather off the wall, too. You memorize chords and scales, and after a while it gets lodged into memory.
What really helped, interestingly enough, was to stop looking at the keyboard layout. But then I'm an ear learner.
Some jazzy Jeffries players: The World in a Box fellow is great, and plays quite a few jazz tunes. There's a husband and wife on YouTube, she sings and he provides backing. Sorry I can't remember their names.
I picked up my Jeffries Bros for cheap - only $3k. This is a spendy instrument. I'd save up and get an inexpensive hybrid, dip your toes into the water.
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Mine arrived yesterday, also sans booklet, I also wrote them, also saying that I'd be happy with a computer file. We'll see what happens.
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My first concertina, after playing the box for some years, was a brass reeded Lachenal; I figured they were a big company, I don't have to have steel. Well, what a chore to get music out of that thing I figured out the scales at least; and then basically broke a few notes trying to make it work better.
A few years later I bought a Kensington, almost as an impulse purchase - the seller had cut the price a few times. And have been at it ever since. Really stumbled onto something grand. I've played Carrolls and Suttners, and they left nothing to be desired playability wise; but mine is simply the cream of the crop tonally. Notes never fail to speak perfectly, either. I really prefer the Kensington's big delrin buttons, too; and Dana's general philosophy of building something that won't crack, that can be taken apart easily, that's free of extra added decor that jacks the price up, to make an instrument that's affordable to as many as possible. And the strap system, where you can adjust the tension in seconds so your friend can give it a try. Adjusting conventional straps makes me think of those pit crews at the Indy 500, getting the tires off the things ASAP...
I've been thinking that it'd be nice to have a G/D eventually, and figured I'd do business with Dana again - he's been very helpful with advice and repairs - reed swap, new handrests. Shame to see you go! But you gotta do what you gotta do.
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$20, and $15 shipping to the states, youch. Glad it's on the shelves again of course, just ordered my copy, and thanks for bringing this to our attention!
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How many has he built? Cost? Options - different keys, drone, extra buttons? I've read that he has a variety of choices for papers etc.
Everyone else has a website, except Jose Claro, who I imagine doesn't need one, living in Ireland and all. Is one in the works?
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Guess I'll respond on a 19 year old thread with some observations.
I play Irish music so this is all centered around that genre.
I've always taken the warnings about not playing the bellows on the leg seriously, and no end of great players don't do that. Nevertheless some do, like John Williams, the only American to win the All Ireland. Don't know what they do when holes form in the bellows; cope? Get a replacement?
I never liked playing with the bellows on the leg, anyway; it's great for stability but creates all this drag at the same time. The advice I've always read is to put the left side on the left leg. To my surprise quite a few players do the opposite - right side on right leg:
https://www.concertina.net/images_peter_laban/batch2/healy.jpg
This is Hugh Healy, I have his CD, great musician. This photo is from a a page hosted here of photos taken by Peter Laban. The majority of snaps there actually show players like Hugh holding right-on-right, or as I'm going to joshingly refer to it, playing the concertina backwards.
Or how about righties and lefties?
The next photo is of Brid Meaney, also a righty. Here's a video of her with fiddler Síle, her sister I assume. Terrific music! Trying to find more about Brid I found that was Florence Fahy's first instructor, and Flo also is a righty.
Another thing Hugh and Brid both do is to tilt the stationary end way over to the side at an outwards angle. Guess that helps the thing to do more of the work? It's far removed from Noel Hill's keep the ends parallel approach. I've never had luck with angling like this, it doesn't make things more comfortable. I've found that I need to keep the stationary left side basically upright, and angle the other side downwards, otherwise my right hand really begins to ache. Perhaps I have a sensitive nerve on top of my right hand, where the strap makes contact.
Here's one more approach: 2014 All Ireland Champion Ciaran Hanna holds the right side on the left leg - with the left side hanging in the air. This is common with box players. Here's a video.
Hope this is all of interest/help to people. Try anything - I believe that what's best for us in how we hold the concertina has a lot to do with our physiology.
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I hadn't been playing very long when I started filling up a page from a drawing notebook with tune titles. I probably crammed close to a hundred on the one page - very small print, with red lines between titles to increase legibility. So, it didn't take me long to begin vacuuming up Irish music - but I'd been playing music my whole life, and had been very obsessive about other genres for a decade at that point.
Almost 30 years later and I still constantly listen to this stuff, and learn new items. It's always fascinating to me how there's this batch of notes in my brain which wasn't there before. How'd it get in there?
There are people I've known the whole time I've been playing who still churn out the same couple of dozen tunes every week. Good for them! They're happy to just get together with friends and have a good time. They have skills in other areas, too. As I said to some friends the other night, "Knowing thousands of tunes, great. That and 10 cents will buy you a cup of coffee!" That's paraphrasing a saying from days gone by, when coffee was a lot cheaper.
So I'd learn whatever they're playing at your local beginner's session, for a start. Work on playing solidly, good time, lift, etc. And listen to it as much as possible, like Peter says. These things really do burrow into your subconscious.
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The 40 button example on this page has one, looks just like Luke's layout though, maybe it's the source. From what I've read the layout on these deluxe instruments could vary a bit, though.
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Florence Fahy plays Wheatstone, she's from north Clare and learned from Chris Droney so that figures. A friend was over last summer and said she really gets some decibels out of that thing, too. Liam O'Brien is another Wheatstone player.
I read somewhere that Noel started playing Wheatstones simply because they're more durable...
Let's not forget the sound, I simply prefer the tone of Jeffries style instruments, which I guess is mostly due to that parallel reed pan. I imagine a lot of musicians gravitated to them for that.
The Jeffries pull C# gives you the ability to play a run legato around the middle D, or to play a B/C#/D triplet, having to push that C# would really gum up the works. I think. Those are some things that come to mind giving the Jeffries layout an edge for playability. Or they open up some nice possibilities, anyway; the Wheatstone layout certainly doesn't slow down a good player. The two different button box systems in use with Irish music have similar plusses and minuses, which are more like things that you can put to use in the music to create sounds; and certain things are simpler/easier on one system then the other. The differences between the two concertina systems are much more minor, by contrast.
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There are Master Crowley's reels 1+2, E minor, the first is often played in D though. The second is also called the Roscommon reel.
Then there are Crowley's reels 1+2, no qualifier. If you look these up on the Session (Dave provided the link to Crowley's #1) you'll find all the instances of those tunes on recordings. Looking on YouTube for 'Crowley's reels' will turn up clips, too
Style: Chris Droney vs Noel Hill
in General Concertina Discussion
Posted
Chris used the G row for the keys of G and D, mostly ignoring the C row, except in cases where it would be awkward to not do so, such as the two part jig the Geese in the Bog. That's the crux of the matter. Dan's book goes into much more detail, far more in fact than what can be found in print on the cross fingering approach.
The Droneys keep this method of playing alive, also Florence Fahy. I've monkeyed around with it some, certain things are definitely easier, like tunes that bounce from D to F# to A and back; or the Lark in the Morning, you can push BGB BdB to make up for the pulling you were doing before.