Frank Edgley

Thank you for the drawings, Goran. However, the reason I wanted actual scale drawings was to see if your design suggestions would actually work. I also said something about maintaining characteristics of the concertina, such as size, portability, sound etc. I would quote myself, but can't find that post. Now that I have gone to "Reply mode", I can no longer see your drawings either, but with the size buttons you suggest, I can't see how the mechanism would work out. i.e. where each mechanism would route from button to vent hole and where the fulcrum for each note would be located. Also, putting the reeds in "Stagi-type" oblique banks would enable you to put more reeds into an instrument, but would have to be inset from the edge by the depth of the bellows fold, at least. As well, the bellows frame would have to be deeper so that these banks of reeds would not hit each other when the bellows was in a closed position. Putting this many reeds into a hexagonal instrument would be even more difficult. However, we are both talking in very general ways, or at least still conceptually. The only way to see how it would all work would be precise, scale drawings . These would have to include mechanisms, buttons, bellows (showing depth of folds), reed placement (including appropriate sizes).

How are the drawings coming, Goran? I'm anxiously awaiting some good ideas!

Dave:"Dave, I have used ‘UHU’ in the past and it is just like ‘Bostik’ which you may be familiar with. They are both , I think, styrene based and are equally vile and messy to use and produce long strings of waste. Any such spillages will dissolve or damage many wood (and leather) stains and surface finishes." Reply:I don't know what you are talking about. The UHU I have used does not spill (it is a stick glue), does not sproduce "long stings of waste" or dissolve wood. Applied with a toothpick it is harmless (used by school aged children) and very easy to use, without any mess. It holds fast and is easy to remove by scraping with a screwdriver. I prefer liquid hide glue, but wouldn't hesitate to use UHU. It certainly isn't "vile". Maybe we aren't talking about the same stuff?

R. Merris :(2) Key-of-D tunes (e.g., hornpipes like Boys of Blue Hill) just do not have the same "feel" when transposed. Transposing is time consuming. And the actual playing (fingering) may be harder in the transposed key. (E.g., the triplets in Boys of Bluehill almost "cries out" for Key of D on an instrument with C# in standard accidental position (an the push, pull, or both). Response: I think the way around many D tunes is just to leave out the C#, rather than transposing. That would work quite well with Boys of Blue Hill. Not quite the same, but a small detail, nevertheless .

I wouldn't use Elmer's for valves. Liquid hide glue, shellac, or UHU glue would be much better.

Thank you, Goran. I am familiar with these articles. I still maintain that I see nothing that changes my lack of agreement with some of your contentions, however. I do hope that instead of a restatement of these articles, you would illustrate your proposals in a concrete manner by showing your design suggestions using scale drawings. Otherwise I can't see how these suggestions for improvement could be implemented. I think everyone would agree with you that buttons should be more comfortable; the instrument should be easy to hold without any strain to arms, shoulders, and fingers; the fingers should be free to perform complex and rapid operations; the instrument should be easy to play standing or sitting; and it should be easily portable. But exactly how? Scale drawings are necessary.

"The two shorter screws on one of my Englsih thumb strap have stripped. Any advice on best approach?" Randy Hudson Response: Sorry, I seem to have misread your original question. I guess being so immersed in anglos, and not reading your question carefully, I jumped to the wrong conclusion as to what you were asking.

Goran, I must admit that I am not always completely open to new ways of doing things. at least initially. There are pros & cons to this. It means, among other things, that I will conserve what has been proven to work without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. However, if something is really a good idea, I usually, if begrudgingly come around. So far, in spite of significant rhetoric, I have not SEEN too many of these "improvements", with most discussions based upon general statements of the shortcomings of certain design factors such as button size and handles / finger rests / straps etc. I would be most interested in actually seeing some drawings which would illustrate solutions to the design problems which would solve these problems while preserving the basic essence of the concertina. e.g. size, weight, portability, and at the same time maintaining quality, tone, appearance etc. etc. I know you have given significant time, energy, and thought to the shortcomings of our instrument. Do you, or could you come up with drawings or plans which would address these issues and yet fall within the design parameters stated above. As a concertina maker I would be most interested and would promise not to use your design without your OK, excluding, of course, design features already being used. I realise that without proper tools & equipment you may not be able to build such an instrument yourself, but a set of drawings done to scale, if built by a concertina maker, would put this discussion to rest, provide proof positive that your concepts were valid & practical, and perhaps do the concertina world a significant service.

It's been my experience that most Irish tunes are in the key of G. At least 85% of the tunes in my tutor, and most of the tunes in the session tune book I put together are. Many others, written in D can be easily "fudged" to sound quite acceptable without actually playing the C#. If I'm not mistaken, Chris Droney's CD, "The Fertile Rock," has tunes mostly in G. You could play 99% of all Irish tunes with a 21 button, if such a thing existed. So I agree with Paul, and others here who suggest a good 20 button would be preferable to a poor 30 button instrument, for a beginner.

Matt Heumann has some lovely Skinner style tunes in his tunebooks, among others---well worth the purchase. You can contact him at heufam@ameritech.net . BTW, Matt has won several prizes in tune writing competitions for Scottish trad. music.

As far as the original question is concerned, about how airtight should a concertina be, there is more than one factor to consider. There are "external leaks", where air escapes to the outside, or from the outside to the inside, when the instrument is held up by one strap. Equally important are the "internal leaks", where all the air does not pass through the reed, but can bypass it, due to lack of airtightness of the individual reed chambers. With a traditional English-made concertina design, this leak often occurs around the gasket between the reed pan and the bellows gasket. With one of the modern makes, the "internal leaks" can occur if there is not a good seal between the reed(s) and the reed pan. So you can have a bellows which falls very slowly when held up by one end, but plays poorly because some of the air leaks around the reed, and does not go through the reed. Finally, if the first two considerations are met, the instrument may still not be a good player because the reeds themselves are not very sensitive. A completely airtight Lachenal (a rare beast) will still not play as well as a Jeffries with some leaks because of the quality of the reeds. Gearoid OhAllmuirhain was playing one of his Jeffries without any problems a number of years ago. When I looked at his instrument there was a hole in the bellows about 2 mm. in diameter. Yet the instrument still played relatively well because the reeds are so sensitive. However, when I repaired the leak it, of course, played much better. So, just holding up the instrument is not the whole answer. Purchasing a concertina is a tricky situation. If your question is made with the purchase of an instrument, a few basics are in order: 1-How fast does the bellows go down when playing a note? You should be able to play a reasonable number of notes in one direction without running out of air. 2-Is there a difference between notes, close in pitch, with regards to how fast the bellows goes down? In other words do all Gs of the same pitch (on an anglo), for example, go down equally fast. This kind of thing would indicate an "internal leak." 3-How hard do you have to press or pull the bellows to make a good, clear sound? Obviously, if the reeds are of the best quality, and set up properly, the notes should sound clearly and evenly with a minimum of pressure. Do your arms get a bit tired after 5 minutes of playing? It takes acertain amount of knowledge to know reed quality of "vintage-style" instruments - more than can be gone into here. As far as the modern makes, Hand-made reeds are usually more sensitive than machine made or hand-finished machine made reeds.

Many people will agree with this statement, I suspect: "Always buy the best instrument you can afford." If you decide you and the instrument are not made for each other, you can usually get close to what you paid for it, if you did not overpay to begin with. If you like the instrument, you will not likely outgrow it, at least for quite a while. A cheap instrument is hard to sell, and harder to get anywhere near what you paid for it. Buying a "vintage instrument" is not easy and full of pitfalls an inexperienced purchaser may fall for. Try to have an experienced player advise you before making the leap.

If you contact Colin Dipper, he will most likely have, or make a replacement for you, if it is the thumbscrew and not the threaded insert which is stripped. If it is the insert, he may suggest retapping with a slightly larger size and replacing the thumbscrew with another with the new thread.

I'm afraid all this is a tempest in a teapot, based on a misunderstanding during a conversation. A "surmise" is not a fact, as friends often talk and "wonder if...", or postulate why. Sorry to disappoint all you gossipmongers. I have absolutely no connection directly or indirectly with the maker in question, so how in the world would I know the workings of another man's business? Yes, I also make concertinas, but to assume I am an authority on another maker is kind of like being asked in Ireland, "So, you're a Canadian... Do you know Bill O'Malley? He lives over there, too." The fact is, said fictional Bill O'Malley would probably live closer to me than our friend in England. This is my last word on the issue.

I regularly play with Craig on thursday evenings at the Finnish Centre in Farmington, Michigan (the new home of our Comhaltas branch). His accompaniment is tasteful and interesting and great fun to play along with. I eagerly look forward to his tutor. I'm sure it will expand my horizons, and from my experiences in playing with him and knowing him I am sure it will be a great contribution to anglo concertina playing.

Scorewriter is easily found using Google. It was by Scorewriter, then Geniesoft. While it doesn't attempt to write music from music played into the computer, I've found it an extremely easy, simple and inexpensive way for me to write music. I've used it exclusively for both my books and have quite a collection of Irish tunes waiting for compilation for the next session tune book. I find it quite useful that it plays back what you have written so you are less likely to leave an error in the music. The cost, when I checked it, just now, was $59.95. No, it won't write the music for you, if you play into the computer, but it does everything I need it for, and simple enough to use after only a couple of minutes of practice.

Sounds interesting. I think close to Chicago would be a good idea---lots of musicians there.

Paul, These are probably steel end bolts which were sometimes used on certain Lachenals. These are sometimes badly rusted. It's doubtful that you can get enough of one of those release liquids down to the threaded plate, which is most likely inset deeper within the bellows frame as opposed to screwed down under the chamois gasket. Using a screwdriver may not wotk either as it may likely slip and damage the ends, or distort the screw head. I know it sounds extreme, but a small vice grip will hold the screw head more securely, if the vice grip is applied to the screw head from the end rather than from the side. Make sure the vice grip does not touch the wood and turn very slowly. It wiil probably come out if you take it slowly. It may also break. In this case you will have to replace the screw. There are plenty of these available. If you get stuck ask one of the makers/resorers, or you can contact me as I have a few. Once out, clean the shafts of the screws with steel wool and some WD-40. You may have to use very fine sandpaper on the shaft only (not the threads). Any broken screws (end bolts) will have to be removed. This may be possible now that the ends have been removed as you may now have enough of the shaft to grip with the vice grip. If not, carefully peel back the chamois gasket. If the threaded plate is screwed down to the bellows frame, it is fairly easy to remove it. The whole thing (broken end bolt and threaded plate) can be soaked in WD-40. If the threaded plate is slotted into the bellows frame, you may have to cut out a small slot of wood (from the inside of the bellows frame) so that the broken screw and threaded plate can be removed and soaked. This can be replaced and the cut out slot repaired using thin veneer. After all this you will have to put everything back as it was.

I do believe that Alex C Jones is one of my favourite contributors to this forum. ---A man of discerning musical tastes, and no doubt a gifted individual! Seriously, thanks, Alex! Yes, I had forgotten about Jackie Daly---great music there, too!

Good point. Earlier this year, I sent a concertina via UPS to a customer in the Detroit area. They refused to deliver it on the grounds that it was a "restricted article". Eventually it was all sorted out, but not until some phone calls were made. I now define packages as "Concertina (musical instrument)".

If anyone e-mails me a request, I will send you the page from my tutor with a fairly complete discography of concertina CDs and CDs where the concertina figures prominently. Personally, my favourites are Jacqueline McCarthy's, Chris Droney's (Fertile Rock), Mary MacNamara's (both), Michael OhRahilly's (Nervous Man) and Gearoid OhAllmuirhain's (Music from Clare & Beyond).

"...but, now it's got me wondering...if this song isn't an Air, then...what would you call it?" Response: Probably just the melody to the song. Some jigs etc had lyrics, but I don't believe all songs were written to dance tunes.--Could be wrong?

PAUL:"Frank, were you responding to me when you argued that (despite your acquired preference for A 440) no pitch should inherently be "better?" For the record, my only claim about a PITCH sounding better was in relation to antique old system flutes; those made to play in A 446-452 really do sound better in that range of pitches, since for constructional reasons it is very difficult to repitch them without losing response, tone, internal intonation." FRANK: I totally agree with you in the case of pipes and flutes. With pipes, the instrument was made to play in a certain limited range of pitch. It is very complex, the way the internal bore of the instrument has been tapered (in some cases with multiple degrees of taper within one chanter), and the reed constructed to match it. It becomes more difficult for a chanter made to sound balanced (in pitch from top to bottom) to be flattened or sharpened significantly without altering the balance from top to bottom. This is largely because of the tapering of the bore. All of the notes on pipes (and flutes) are interrelated because they all are made by the same reed and are subject to the design of the one bore through which all the notes are made. Therefore, what you do with the pitch (i.e. raise or lower) affects each note to a greater or lesser (varying) degree. In this case, there is a very narrow range of pitches (only a few cents) which can be used for the instrument to be in a balanced state.

"..., this is (one reason) why original pitch is important to me -- it is often an indicator (along with other evidence) that the original reedwork has not been disturbed." I would agree that this would be a good indicator that the reeds have not been messed with. "...I know of players in Ireland today who have Wheatstones retuned TO unequal temperaments." Yes, there are several players who have at least some notes (B and F#) tuned a few cents flat so that left hand chords (i.e. G and D) sound better. In fact Colin Dipper played a melodian for me where had tuned it in a similar manner. It sounded great in those specific keys.

I'm sure that many of us will be happy to advise you as you search out an instrument and with the repair procedures.