Geoff Wooff

I am considering the purchase of a 'New English'. Does anybody here have some thoughts about this? There are, I think, not many makers offering EC's but I would like to hear comments from anyone who plays one made during the last few years. I must add that I am not thinking of a 'starter' instrument, more a 'top end' model. Thanks for any ideas, Geoff.

I sold one of these ten years ago for £2300 for the very reason that you say Chris (too many Concertinas), it needed no restorative work though. I also do not like to have Concertinas sitting around unplayed. At the moment I have two that I play every day, both quite different, but I have one other that is redundant ( a spare so to speak) being almost the same as one of those in constant use. I feel bad about this and will endeavour to prepare myself, and it,for sale. I would imagine that this Aeola TT will be quite a bit more money when it has been through the Barleycorn restoration system !

Many thanks Dirge... oh, and nice playing too. Thanks also for the link to the score... I have printed it off and will see how much I can make of it on my EC.

Nice photo Peter, a bit like "Aristotle contemplating the Bust of Homer" by Rembrandt.

Very beautifull instruments indeed, however, may I put in a voice of support for the instrument makers ? These brave people work very long hours, sometimes for small enough reward, to produce good working instruments for all of us. To then turn them into pieces of visual art requires a whole lot more effort and talent. I do hope these makers were well compensated for their superb efforts.

Yes I do think so. I have made the same reflection myself. I also think button measures and materials can have similar effects. Compare for example 5mm metal buttons with 6mm bone ones I use a very simple balance. In principle it looks like this: So glad you agree about the pad material issue,I thought it could have just been another of my crazy thoughts. I will put up with the small amount of "pad slap" from the original thin pads so as to retain the tone, or make my own pads next time using as much as possible similar materials. Thanks also for the "balance" sketch. I have another thought regarding Scoopet's clickings; A lachenal that has solid metal buttons might produce a noise when a button is pressed at any slight angle to the perpendicular because the button stem can be displaced sideways in its retaining hole and thus tap on the wood of the pallet board. There is quite a bit of clearance between the button stem and retaining hole especially on an old and much played instrument. Maybe this is part of the reason why Wheatstones went to the extra bother of making metal covered wooden keys, apart from the 'low unsprung weight' issue.

Ardie, you mentioned a button pressure of 50+ grams, have you, or any others here, a suggestion for a device or method for measuring this? From a point of getting all buttons to have an even pressure I usually just use my finger and compare, once I have one or two that I feel are the way I want them but a measuring tool would be nice to have too.

You definitely can reduce the pad noise a great deal by using softer (and thicker) pads. Made from various kinds of synthetic foam for example. The problem is that measures of original constructions mostly do not allow the greater thickness. I wonder why it is like that since pad clattering IS a real nuisance with many concertinas. I feel that the modern (thicker with synthetic foam) pads can dampen the upper partials more than the old thinner felt stuffed variety. I cannot measure this difference but I think I can hear it. I have two EC's that are otherwise quite similar, but not exactly the same period, one has old (maybe original) pads the other has brand new ones. I am trying to evaluate the differences between the two. Do you think the pad material could have an affect on the tone?

If you cover half of the fretted area of an instrument with fretwork all over the end plate you will probably find that the effect on the volume is not as great as you expect. There are Duet Concertinas with less fretwork at the left side but I wonder if that really was meant to balance the volume or just an economic consequence of no need for (costly) fretwork with no acoustic importance. Yes, maybe you are correct. A more radical difference between the fetting from one side to the other might be called for and to get that balance "correct"??? If you take the case of two similar instruments; say a "Pin hole" ( Dot and Comma) fretted Wheatstone and a "normal" fretted Wheatstone from the same period, both instruments being the same internally, the difference in loudness between the two is significant.

The "Bushings" really do need to be in very very good condition on any metal ender. Any sideways movement can allow the buttons to touch the end metal. Maybe because, with a Lachenal, the buttons are solid metal this noise can be stronger ? Although these noises are usually attributed to the non- riveted action, strengthening the srings might help, it is worth a try. I notice on the little Wheatstone that I bought from you ,recently, that there is also a little noise in the action ,which I might be able to cure by re-bushing, but I think it is as much due to the Pads being old and less dampening (springy) than when new. In the end maybe you could consider having your Lachenal action replaced by the service offered by Wim Whakker. If this works as well as the green bellows he made for the Wheatstone (mentioned above) then I would certainly go for it. Ask Hermann as he has a Lachenal Boyd with the Wakker conversion.

Yes (in spite of your denial!!). Simon isn't trying to play ITM, he's not even trying to play Scottish TM. He's just playing music, with a lot of passion, skill and fun, in a way that gives a lot of people pleasure. I don't see what people can reasonably have against that, even if they don't personally enjoy the result. I did not say he was playing ITM or STM but that some might ( and do) see it that way as he is playing "traditional" type tunes. I feel that although it may appear that I am being critical of this performance, other that to say it is not my cup of tea,I am only concerned by some of the reactions given here.

You seem to have taken it upon yourself to define "music" of all genres in such a way that it excludes everyone apart from a tiny, insignificant (in proportion to the world's musicians) number of people who play "Irish Traditional Music" in exactly the way you like it. The world would be an infinitely sadder place if all music - Bach, Shostakovich, Klezmer, Folk, Heavy Metal, Minimalist (blah blah) - was played as you are advocating. Isn't it better to celebrate the diversity which allows everybody to find music that they enjoy, rather than looking down with scorn on everything that doesn't fit into one chosen niche? Hmmm, do I really include all genres of music in this statement? I certainly would not presume to do such a thing.I am only speaking of one genre, ITM, of which a lot of people who are involved with it have very strong views regarding style and taste. I was trying to address my point to those, like Fernando who is on a quest to play this particular musical genre on the EC, in a style that will convince the non believers that it is valid to do so. Fernando says, further up this topic, that wow this is the way forward, this is the way Irish music can be played on the EC, or words to that effect. I am trying to say, look behind a perfomance like this. Yes take on some of Simon Thoumire's techniques but look long and hard at the old players too.Mr. Thoumire did not start from here either. When one makes a recording for Television/ Radio or is interviewed for a Newspaper, one has to sign a release form, which means "they" can do with the material whatsoever they fancy to.If then the "material" is not to your liking there is little you can do to stop "them" from using it. When watching an acrobat performing on a bicycle it is possible to imagine that it might inspire someone to start riding but would you use the performance as instructional material for cycle training ?

Because these 'Traditional' or 'Folk' musics are usually learned ( or passed on) oraly it is vitally important to listen to GOOD playing. It is often said that learning in this way should involve 75% ( or some similar figure) listening time and 25% practicing time. This then involves listening to the very best source material(AND ONLY THAT), of a style that one wants to learn, that can be found. The old players usually have the best, unadulterated,music. There is little point in listening to the 'modern' bands that proliferate today, unless you already know and understand the music of the most ancient recorded musicians. Many of us started our interest in these traditional musics after hearing those modern bands of the 1970's, in Irish music that means the likes of Planxy and the Bothy Band. It was only when we got to look behind these musicians, to see where their music was coming from, that we discovered a wealth of great music that was played in a fashion which might not be considered "presentable" for the general public but was the heart and bones and the starting block.... something to really study. So, for me, this meant that within a year of first hearing "Planxty" I was sitting next to Packie Russell in Doolin, trying to figure out the how's and what's of his music. So this video is for the big stage, for the TV watching audience... it is not Musicians music.

I have been groping, I think not very successfully, to analyse what specifically it is I don't like about that particular performance. Maybe I should just accept that it is more of a gut reaction on an emotional level - perhaps in the same way you don't like music that's really loud. It's not just this particular performance but this kind of very fast playing in general that I don't really enjoy and I do genuinely feel that in playing very fast like that, something gets lost. (Tootler) I am with you on that Tootler ! For me it is just too much technique and not enough MUSIC. Fast playing can sound rushed, in fact sometimes music played at a slower pace can also sound hurried. I prefer a more laid-back approach so that notes do not arrive at my ear before my brain expects them. This can be done at almost any speed. For dancing there is a need to set an exact pace and much time is given over during our local band practices to ensure that we are playing at a good dance tempo by several musicians dancing around the kitchen whilst we play. For playing dance music for listening purposes I think a slower speed is nicer. I am not saying that this video sounds hurried, more that the music sounds crowded and I would hope that people will not see this as a goal to work to, as THE way to play. A good modern example (amongst others) of slower playing, that I like, is the almost perfect CD 'Tracin' by Gearoid O'Hallmhurain and Patrick Ourceau.

Many years ago (36/7 years I think) a band that I played in, along with another C.net member, visited a Folk Club in South London. Nick Jones was the guest that night and we thought to enjoy his performance and do a little 'floor spot' to promote our band. So we played our best tunes and thought we had done well but, we were in for a shock when Mr.Jones came to start his second set and produced a fiddle, played a beautifull set of tunes and gently suggested that although we had buckets of enthusiasm, that enthusiasm was more for ourselves than the music we had played. His words were to the effect that we had put ourselves in front of the music, used the music to show off. So the lesson was play to show your audience how fine the music is. Much of the traditional music that has been aired by the BBC of late is(IMHO) quite 'over the top' and maybe this is what is needed to impress the watching public. It may well have the positive effect, in this case, of promoting the Concertina and that cannot be a bad thing. However, it is not my cup of tea. As a person who has been playing this type of music on the EC and other instruments,off and on, for close to forty years I have a fairly refined (personal) idea of what is and what is not Good Taste. I still see my playing of ITM on the EC as a 'work in progress', never really satisfied but, if I could offer any advice to others it would be that which was given to me all those years ago by Nick Jones. In coversation with Ralph Jordan (the other C.neter mentioned above) recently we agreed that it is good that no recordings exist today of our band "Fingers Galore".... the name says it all !

Very nice, as usual Alan. May I make the suggestion that it could be time to check your "bushings"? I noticed you have one or two clicking keys. Best regards, Geoff.

Sounds like you asked the right question !

Because the volume range is spread over a wider range of applied force it seems to me to be easier, not harder, to express little nuances precisely with a big instrument. Dirge. I have just tried this and yes, of course, you are completely correct. A good and important point Dirge.

I do not think that you would lose much in the way of dynamics with the larger instrument it is just that a great deal more effort is needed to access them. When changing from a 6 inch (treble EC) to an 8 inch model I notice that the difference in push and pull power needed is significant. It is what you 'get used to' as can be seen from the Percy Honri video (many thanks for the link Sean).

If I am not mistaken is that not the wonderfull Frances Custy on fiddle ?

Brilliant, Geoff, and very many thanks for that. One way I endeavour to improve my playing is to play along with recordings (eg the excellent Foinn Seisiun sets from Comhaltas). I've always gone through a contrived method of opening a track in Adobe Audition, slowing it down, etc - yes, complicated and time consuming when all I want to do is play music. Best Practice has made things so much easier. Thanks again. Regards, Chris Glad it works for you too Chris, I got this tip from another member of C.net (Peter laban) so we must thank him too.

A good way to learn tunes 'by ear' is to get a 'Slow-Downer' programme. I use one called 'Best Practice' this can be downloaded free from the Web. It will allow you to play back a tune at any speed that you can manage, whilst keeping the original pitch, or you can change the pitch/key of the piece. You can also 'bracket' a section of the melody for reapeating ad infinitum. I find this very usefull when tackling a complicated piece or one with chords that are more difficult to figure out by ear. This is a lot easier than my first attempts which involved jogging the needle back on Vinyl records or my second generation attempts with multi-speed reel to reel tape machines..... however my prefered method is a combination of playing by ear and reading the dots, get the feel and most of the notes by ear and use the dots to search for that elusive lost note. Geoff.

To Fernando I would say I agree that playing in the current spate of sessions in Galway is thought to be too fast by many musicians. I certainly would not bother trying to join in. Luckily for David Levine and myself, we were exposed to fine paced musicians of the older generation around Co.Clare. Playing with Gerald O'Loughlin (flute), John and Paddy Kiloughrey (whistle and fiddle), Micileen Conlan ( concertina), the Russell brothers etc etc... this was a great apprenticeship. Speed ? Yes for the current vogue of set dancing but not for "sessions", either for the musicians or the listeners sakes. As others have said, if it sounds hurried it is probably too fast. Geoff

Thanks a lot Dan for this up to date news, my daughter/ grandaughter and next expected grandchild live in Brisbane... so I will be looking at any news I can find. They did not get flooded in this last period but it came close......

Yes... I do. But who is this Noel Hill guy... he must be really good ?