MatthewVanitas

I'll go slightly contrarian here (along with Alex's implication), and say that you might want to at least investigate Irish music on the English. The absolutely predominant Irish concertina style is the "Noel Hill" style popularized on the Anglo in the 1970s or so. That's largely killed off a lot of more-traditional Anglo styles like along-the-row. So, to one degree, yes, if you want to play Irish music in the modern day, it's expected you'll get a 30b Anglo and learn the omnipresent Noel Hill style. That is not, however, actually mandatory, just the current fashion. We have some good threads here about Irish music on the English, and the best point I've seen made is that one shouldn't aspire to imitate the Anglo concertina on the English (which can be done but is a bit of a parlour-trick), but rather to look at other heavily melodic instruments like fiddle, uilleann pipes, and Irish flute, and take inspiration from those traditions. Here are a few clips of "Irish on the English" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK5Avlw0tVA Cool clip of Simon Thoumire backed up by bodhran (he also has for-pay web seminar on such) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tHR8VXPwsw Monty Chiton Dick Miles is an advocate of Irish on the English, and has written a number of books (www.dickmiles.com), and has some video clips, largely of song accompaniment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bFeua5R8w8 Alistair Anderson largely played Northumbrian on English concertina, but I've read that his instruction books for the English are very applicable to Irish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKNiHEXVWao There's a woman Madeline O Dowd who won in the All-Ireland Fleadh on English concertina, but I'm not sure where to find clips of her. Here's a pretty comprehensive old thread on the topic: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10431&page=1 Thread has a long list of "Irish on the English" players you can explore, listen to, see how they strike you. So the long/short is that if you want to play in the current Anglo tradition (sanctified by a couple of decades at most), get a 30b or close to it if you find a good deal on a 24/26/28 and learn Noel Hill style. If you want to put your fiddling skills onto a different instrument, and get a very different flow/feel of concertina playing (the actual notes themselves will sound the same, it's the style of play that the system changes), then consider English. And in whatever case, visiting Greg will be an outstanding way to feel some things out and get your headspace locked on.

You mention in the ad that you switched to playing Duet; what system/model?

Bumping since originator made updates, added photos, etc. Kay, it couldn't hurt to mention where the concertina is (Pennsylvania?), where you're willing to ship it to if buyer covers shipping (US only? US/Canada only? Globally?), etc. Totally optional but always helpful is if you want to record a quick YouTube snippet of it playing, but that's less-commonly done though never a bad idea.

I would message the YouTuber, but I have to make some adjustments to get back into my YouTube account as it's linked to my US phone number at the moment. But if anyone wants to invite him to join the discussion, that could be most fruitful. So far as layouts that could be converted to Hayden, Kusserow does look a good option. There's one Kusserow bandoneon up on eBay at the moment for US$500: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Old-unusual-Concertina-Bandoneon-Bandonion-Accordion-47-52-button-/131311856700?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e92cbec3c Though I do not know how rare/desirable Kusserow bandoneons are, whether they're something one can modify in good conscience or no, etc. I suppose some of these options are less-invasive, but I suppose it depends how easy it is to separate reeds from the soundboard and drop them back in. It's an interesting idea, and might work really well for one-offs, but it's not quite scalable for getting a few dozen of these. Kusserow layout for context: it appears it's just notes lined up chromatically (e, f, f#, g, g#), running left-right on the right hand, and diagonally on the left hand: http://www.bandoneon-maker.com/band.kusserow%20lay%20out.dwg%201-Model.jpg%202.jpg

Good deal, yeah, I imagine it's just taking BB a few days to pop it up on their site. You can always just drop them a line too asking about it.

He's waiting for the used one (that a newb tried to sell here but ended up selling to BB) to pop up on BB's used listing. If the price is reasonable, Ceili sounds an awfully good option, plus bird-in-the-hand and all that, and a very easy instrument to re-sell should he change makes later.

Don't forget constertina. Or if you're in Massachusetts, constertiner

I PMed Jim Besser to ask if the thread could be moved to "General" where more folks will see it. So BRG, if this disappears it's because it's transferred over there.

Hello from a fellow Hayden player! I also play some Appalachian/Irish melodies, as well as some Sacred Harp hymns and the like; have you seen my clip of that on an Elise? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djQCJqOSA-U That was years ago, I really need to upload newer/better clips. If you like Shape Note tunes, I especially like "Idumea" (among minor tunes) and "Dying Californian" for something more major. Duet can imitate multiple-party vocal polyphony better than other concertinas, so if you enjoy any madrigals or monastic chant or whatnot, Duet is great for those. In any case, each concertina type has its own strengths and weaknesses: English concertina has speed, Anglo has easy harmony, but Duet is best for complicated multi-part music, rich and complicated chords, etc. I tend to think of the Duet as being kind of like an organ, so I'm working at learning some medieval organ pieces on it. For Appalachian and Irish stuff, Duet has trouble playing jigs and reels at high speed, but if you focus on the slow airs, and other more relaxed melodies, you can play them while applying rich harmony down below, or a long-slow drone, or fill in some high end on the right hand. So far as ergonomic: I just play the instrument on my knee, but we do have some members who've rigged up neck and wrist straps. I think Łukasz has some good photos of that on this forum. For tightness of the hand straps, I thought the same at first until it was explained to me that you're not trying to cinch your hand down tight to the handrail. Instead, you want it somewhat tight, and then you "cup" your palm to make your hand larger and thus fill out more of the strap. That way by tightening/relaxing your palm you can make the hand-strap tighter and looser depending on where you need to reach. Give that a try and see if it solves your looseness issue.

We've had a scattering of other hybrid makes (Marcus, etc.) go for prices in the $1000-2000 range in the last six months; might want to glance back a few pages and see if any of those haven't sold, or watch for the next one to pop up. (not sure if these are still up for sale) Like this gorgeous Edgley for $2400: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16830 Another Edgley SOLD in July: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16830 26b Wheatstone €2500: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16972 Morse Ceili posted in August by new member who hasn't been heard from: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16862 Tedrow 31b for $2300: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16937

In any case, point remains that there are a lot of "exotic" woods out there that aren't necessarily logged in nations with iffy environmental cred. I know pipemakers, at least the ones building unusual pipes (GHB players are very conservative) have been pretty into using local/ancestral woods. Is there any similar trend in concertinas? If not, you could be an innovator. Ooh, you could get some local bog-wood, preserved and hardened underwater. That'd be durable and distinctive stuff. I was just looking at a set of rhythm bones made of that same material. Here's a psaltery of black bog-oak:

I don't think QR codes are particularly invasive, since they're simply a condensation of text into blocks. They're not magnetized, not RFID, traceable, etc, but are simply just readable patterns of black/white. I'm genuinely considering now getting a QR code tag made with the basic maker/date/model/for-whom, and asking Button Box to affix/glue/whatever it to the inside of the frame during my warranty servicing. The main place I found isn't cheap-cheap (like $20 for a custom tag) but they offer all kinds of materials, including titanium. If I could get a small tag, smaller than a postage stamp, that'd be pretty simple and unintrusive on the inside.

Regarding "exotic woods", have you considered instead "uncommon woods"? Or whatever the term is for "woods we don't commonly use, but aren't endangered". In the US, some smallpipes makers have taken to using native woods more and more, of types not conventionally used but which are suitable for instruments and are plentifully available. For example, I have a bellows-blown Swedish bagpipe made from mesquite wood. Mesquite is very light but very strong, has the property of swelling in perfect proportion if it does swell (holes/bores never go out of round). A good half-dozen or more North American luthiers now use it occasionally for cauld-wind (bellows-blown) bagpipes. Mesquite is practically a weed in Texas, so there's no fear of over-exploiting that! If both the ethics of harvesting, and potential future EU import laws, are of concern, perhaps there are distinctive, concertina-suitable, and non-endangered woods you could try? I know English holly looks gorgeous as trim, almost bone-like. Maybe some plum? Or order from across the pond since the amounts/sizes are small, get some mesquite, katalox ("Mexican ebony"), persimmon, etc. There's a whole world of woods out there, so if one can use more attainable woods without sacrificing structure, there's some virtue and also distinction there.

I've been listening to Bellamy since about 1996, when I would skip Econ lectures in college to go hang out in the music listening library in the basement of the building next door. You'd look up the album in the catalog, and the clerk behind the window would fish the album out of the archives and put it on a turntable for you, which would feed into earphones on your side of the window, and I listened to Barracks Room Ballads dozens of times. In any case, so far as Anglo players just doing simple push-pull mash-chords, I ran across this clip of a young guy with a Persian name, covering the 1990s rock band Red Hot Chili Peppers, with what seems to be to be a surprisingly Bellamy-esque method: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4mr-oIewvw I've seen a smattering of clips like this on YouTube, of self-taught people who just acquired a 20b Anglo and figured out how to push and pull chords on it. It's a really appealingly primitivist style.

For technology that contains a lot of info, but isn't subject to decay, or dependent on an outside database, what about simple QR codes? I used a free QR-generator online to make one saying "Morse Beaumont Hayden Duet, made for Matthew Vanitas, Wash. DC 2013. As long as it's clearly printed/engraved (I don't think you could just directly ink it onto porous wood), the data won't decay, and afaik the QR technology is primitive enough that reading a 2013 QR in the year 2103 won't be unduly hard barring massive technological collapse (which means we have far larger problems in life). Not sure what the best way to print it is, though there's probably some small biz out there online that for a few bucks will mail you a QR code printed onto some durable plastic, and you could just glue it inside the frame. For real, I might actually to just that for when I send my Beaumont back to BB for it's final warranty checkup in December, ask them to just glue it inside while they're mucking around in there.

I asked Buttonbox if they could write/stamp a "Made for M. Vanitas, DC 2013" but they said they don't do that... I also wish that maker labels in the fretwork at least laminated the paper, though I suppose I've owned concertins that still had the "Lachenal" paper label 130 years later. I would happily pay slightly more for an engraved maker's name and serial.

I was looking into a finer Crane recently (have a 35b Lachenal now), and was advised that while, yes in theory, a 42b would sell for a lower price than a 48b Crane, the 42b pop up so infrequently it's a pretty academic point. The perceived paucity of available Cranes has got me more than a little tempted to try out Maccann and see if that system is actually as baffling as it first appears. It seems extremely illogical and uncomfortable, especially compared to Hayden, but the serious Duet players seem to employ Maccann just fine. I find Crane to be in the middle: not as regular as Hayden, but less weird than Maccann. Crane rather reminds me of something between a guitar and a piano, with the same sort of weird "things don't quite line up uniformly" that causes just one guitar string to be a diminished fourth above the others vice a full fourth. Though I'd prefer a Hayden, at least with Crane I can tell myself that having to be cognizant of what key I'm in will help me if I ever try playing clavichord/keyboard as I've intended.

Thanks Łukasz, I was getting a bit off to the fringe there trying to combine ideas, so good points on the different end-goals. I suppose initially what I had in mind was "ask Dean to make a run of Hayen S-Waves", but I checked that out prior to this thread and Dean said that it wasn't feasible for him personally to make at this stage, other priorities, etc. If the S-Wave is indeed as cool as a few members have stated, I for one would be interested in a run of 65b S-Waves if Dean were willing to license the design out to an outside workshop. If we do indeed want to have an actual traditional-style lever-magnets system, vice switches such as Dean uses, then that would be barely easier/cheaper than simply making an entire concertina. Minimal saving in not having to have reeds and reedblocks? Not presuming to pressure Wim, but just using the Peacock as an example: if we had a 7" Peacock kit with an end that is not yet fretted, we could take the 42b and add holes around it to bring it up to easily 52b or perhaps even 65b, since the levers don't need to lead to a "chamber", just to a hole with a magnet which we can place anywhere on the soundboard. So as long as the buttons don't run off the edge of the body, we're ok? That said, there is no Peacock kit currently, and the Clover kit runs $1550. And I have no idea if it'd be a massive tail-pain for Wim to ask his suppliers to send him a batch of unfretted ends, or some extra levers and buttons. But if somehow we could arrange that, then it'd be a relatively "standard" MIDI-fication at that point? This would kind of be between Łukasz's options #1 and #2: being better quality than #2 but at least twice the price, but still waaaay cheaper than option #1 but still pretty good quality. Option #1.5? Option #1.75 would be getting a run of unassembled/unfretted/unholed Concertina Connection boxes, and drilling button-holes for a 65b layout (it's the same 7" size as the Peacock/Beaumont, so it'd fit). Then running the levers just willy-nilly wherever we can fit a hole on the soundboard, add in magnets/MIDI and assemble. The materials cost would be way lower than the Peacock version, though depending on labor/electronics cost that might be false economy. Or would a CC action be acceptably good enough with nicer buttons (metal or Delrin) and bushing? For Łukasz's option #3, my initial ideas were two different takes: 3a: something similar to the S-Wave, cast-resin or milled plastic body with off-the-shelf switches and a pressure-sensor vice bellows 3b: something extremely close to the Gadget, but tidied up by dropping it into cast/milled plastic hexagonal ends to make it a more durable and polished product. Maybe a "bellows" just slightly fancier than the hinge the kit used. Not quite a true concertina feel, but more concertina-like and also far handier than a AXIS-49 hex keyboard. At least partial appeal to both concertinists and to MIDI enthusiasts, not the ideal for either but affordable enough to be tolerable to both communities. Spoke with Dean recently, and he's out busy for a couple of weeks but may be willing to drop into provide his perspective after that. So far as I know, mainly it's Dean Onyon (S-Wave) and Ron Whiteley (Accordion Magic, UK) who've done MIDI concertinas that have stuck around on the market for a while. So a few folks managed to have found a solution, as have a few small workshops for melodeons like the Streb eMelodeon. Thing is, most of these folks are "gentleman luthiers" who build as a sideline while having many other priorities, so finding a solution and getting it to a full-time outsource workshop that can churn out a run seems the affordable solution.

I didn't mean to distract folks with the string thing, just thought it was cool. My understanding is that for this first, good-quality MIDI instrument, folks want standard bellows. So for the time being, shall we just put a pin in the MIDI instrument will have standard concertina bellows, utilize the existing air-pressure sensor for dynamics, and the bellows will have to be sourced from other than Jordan, possibly that Irish maker or someone @ ~€150 ? If we can slap the table on that, we can move on to fretting about buttons, and once we get the button problem solved it's "just" a matter of sketching out features, taking orders and deposits, run a prototype, etc. Not that said are instantaneous, but they're known standard business procedure, whilst figuring out buttons is taking us a moment. Any last objections to proper leather concertina bellows, comprising €150 of the final price, from anyone here with at least moderate intent to purchase one? EDIT: can anyone think of any similar item with buttons close together? Does Roland use a real traditional lever action with magnets in their e-accordions, or are the buttons themselves electronics? Quite possibly dumb layman question: when we're talking about switches being too big to fit together close enough, we're talking about the body, not the actual button the finger hits, right? So we can't just have a larger switch below the "frets" with a much smaller button stacked atop it and poking out?

While I admire the 3D, it's not something I'd order for myself, as I like a nice flat end. Though I do wonder if it could be done effectively with a scanner communicating to a 3D wood milling machine or whatever. In any case, yes, forward-leaning fretwork can be beautiful. I'm particularly impressed by these fellows:

Now you've done it: there was no Wikipedia biography for Dando, so I had to go and make one myself from bits and pieces of string I found in old publications online. Apparently also invented apparatus for making performers "fly" onstage, and was a photographer for the London Zoological Society. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Pfeffer_Dando (Incidentally, if anyone here wants to try writing their first Wikipedia article on anyone in concertina/melodeon history, PM me and I can walk you through the steps. A lot of famous players, builders, inventors have yet no bio on Wikipedia since ours is a niche community.)

Kudos for branching out on fretting. As much as I enjoy the old vintage concertinas, I don't see a need to anachronistically stick with Victorian motifs for all time, so it's great to see a maker using new fretwork designs. I can't tell if it's real or optical illusion from the color of the wood, but is the end curved upwards towards the middle, or is it reasonably flat and just relieved where the vines cross under?

And the Cherry switches are right-out just based on size? I mean, expense is relative depending on how expensive the overall package is, so if we're going deluxe 64x$2.50=$160 isn't ungodly, but not conducive to making an affordable little thing. But if Cherrys are just too large, and aren't available in any smaller size, then that option is just off the table if we want Hayden-standard. Is it that the Cherry buttons would just be wider buttons than concertina standard, or that the full switch assembly is too large to maintain the required distance between buttons, center-to-center? Does the S-Wave have buttons of generally standard separation? I glanced around some old threads to see if Dean has publicly mentioned his thoughts on switches, but no dice. EDIT: even back 5 years ago, even our very discerning Duettist Dirge was impressed by the S-Wave action, so Dean is clearly doing something right with his buttons. Dirge's short review: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10197&p=102312 I thought for a moment about the Paul Everett "Gadget" Hayden, which has buttons all near-touching like a CBA, unlike concerrtina. Then I noticed that the fellow who used to make kits for them was our same Jordan Petkov! One of the things I'd pondered whether there's any way to upgrade the Gadget just enough to make it tolerable as a concertina trainer, as an affordable MIDI option that might also lure electronic musicians into the acoustic concertina world. Though for the moment it seems we have more folks interested in a good-quality instrument closely resembling a true concertina. Jordan, y'all no longer make that Gadget kit, do you? Ran across an interesting "bellows alternative" item today. Probably not a feasible method for what we do, not particularly natural-feeling, but this pulley system informing the MIDI is rather clever: http://crewdson.net/ EDIT: Jordan, thanks for laying out the pricing scheme. If we can come to any kind of slap-table agreed good idea here that offers good bang-for-the-buck (ie maybe a little spendy but great quality), getting three folks onboard would be easy. And if it's reasonably affordable, rustling up 10 orders seems quite feasible even for a first run, price depending.

Ah, I was just about to post the iRig. There are other devices like the Line 6 that are cheaper, but less well-reviewed, but several options on the market. I had not realized that finding buttons would be so tricky; I would've thought that in the massive world of electronic fidgety-bits, someone would make buttons that were the right pressure/travel/durability.

Hey Jordan, thanks so much for dropping in with your expertise! Your English is great, so no worries there. I also dropped a line to Dean Onyon, maker of the S-Wave, to invite him to comment if he would like. Don, are the Zippys he mentions amongst those you've already tested and rejected, or might those be an option? And re the Elise, I don't think I or many other folks would be satisfied with just taking an Elise with stock buttons/action and putting magnet-sensors on the levers, since it'd still have a limited scale and only okay action. I love the Elise as a starter, but I think just chucking all the internals and just using the plyood hollow ends and bellows would be the main way to get use out of Chinese bodies. Are the cheap Chinese Anglo bodies set up (handrail-wise) just the same as the Duet? If so, there are tons of makers doing nearly-identical 7" Anglos that we could theoretically contact to sell us a dozen sets of pre-fretting/holing ends and bellows, and we drop the 64 buttons and electronics into those. Though still I'm seeing appeal in having this done in Bulgaria with nicer-quality ends/bellows, unless the cost-savings are big. So far as bellows, I've regularly seen a seller on eBay, "sandylaneman" who routinely sells replacement concertina bellows. Irish maker, using Nigerian goat leather; to my layman eyes seems to be someone who takes bellows seriously. His run €150 for 6", 6 1/4" or 6 5/8" ; I suppose it's an issue of scale, where if the ends and electronics end up costing €800, another ton-and-a-half isn't bad for a quality product, but if this can be done much more affordably, then the bellows start representing a larger chunk of the cost. Kinda similar with ends materials: at a certain level of expense (especially if we're using real leather bellows) we might just want to use good-quality wood, or some quality composite material, since the material cost is small relative to the labor/electronics cost. At the opposite end, if this turns out being easier than expected, a cheapo but decent version with basic cast plastic ends and a bellows substitute looks feasible to keep costs down while maintaining playability. Jordan, your writeup of making the MIDI English was really fascinating. A lot of it I didn't understand, but what I did was neat. It seems you've got a lot of the basic issues and brainstorms (linking up the ends, air-pressure unisonoric sensor, transposition switch) already figured out. The idea we have here is different (easier?) since we aren't dealing with the internal levers and all, rather using electronics buttons that directly inform the board. Do the number of pre-orders we can round up have an appreciable impact on the price? That is, rather than being a one-off, if we have 10 or so people that all want the same instrument, does that help spread the costs? I would also hope that if we do a good run of these, and people really like the product, there could be demand for further runs using the same boards/ends so you could re-use the same specs and techniques. EDIT: we have about 8 people in this thread who've expressed interest, so if even half of those want to proceed, we could probably rustle up enough orders by pinging outside colleagues an Hayden enthusiasts to get up to at least 10 initial orders. Or if this looks to be a great idea and reasonably affordable, we can publicize it more widely to get attention outside the concertina community, maybe Kickstarer it for visibility, etc.