MatthewVanitas

Right, I was using "anglodeon" in the sense of the original poster's question; I recognize Timson's instrument of the same name is the other direction, a melodeon with concertina-based fingering. And the Dippers have like a 7yr waiting list and $6k price or so, yes? Short of that, I don't know, might Edgley (or one of the other hybrid makers) consider this sort of thing, or is Tedrow one of the few folks that has a non-enormous waiting list and is willing to take on unusual commissions?

I don't think the thread is in English, I have not come across the expression 'Bs'ing', and am still in ignorance, so I have been at a bit of a disadvantage with respect to this thread. In fact I wonder what it has to do with concertinas, we have substituted accordion reeds for concertina reeds but now we seem to have stumbled into a cross between 'electronics weekly' and the 'DIY Computer Applications Annual'. we don't even need reeds, nor bellows so why retain keys and fingers? Ah... we get existential. What truly makes a concertina a concertina? So far as "BS'ing", though the term is often derogatory, here it's being used in the humorously self-deprecating way to mean "we're not terribly serious but are throwing around ideas just to see what comes up". The full term is just slightly naughty or work-unsafe for the most conservative, but here's the Wiktionary link; we're using it in the sense of definition Verb2: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bullshit#Verb'>link

That was my thought: my Beaumont 52b is 7" across, and if physical guts inside aren't an issue I don't see any problem wtih adding the extra dozen buttons along the fringes. It's not like we need to fit reeds and steel rods in there. I know some retro-fitted concertinas use the existing action, but if Dean's gets such good reviews for response, it seems like we can skip having trad action and have all the space we need, plus plenty of storage room for a cig lighter, pack of gum, and some prophylactics. Hot diggity-dang! This is why you're an inventor. Sure the Chinese bellows aren't fancy, but they're reasonably functional and inexpensive, and the body likewise functional just fine. If we could wrangle a deal with Wim to get a "blank" run from his supplier, that could cut out a whole lot of grunt labour that the skilled MIDI-smith won't need to muck with. Just having $20 bellows saves us, what, a good $200+ off the finished item? Are not all the CC instruments built on the same carcass? So it wouldn't even need to be a blank Elise, just a blank body in general (albeit maybe with the Anglo/Hayen handrest and strap to save expense) Yeah, if we're the only two I could see it not being a priority, but me personally I think we'd be missing out on some really intriguing MIDI possibilities for alt-tuning if we link buttons. Rendering an acoustic concertina into meantone, JI, etc. is a vast endeavor and not easily undone, so being able to do it with a mouse-click will be a huge advantage for the microtonal set. I'll also submit that being able to do microtonal options, or wide-but-feasible keyboard in general, might be an option which would help us sell this idea to non-concertina MIDI fans as a crossover instrument. Said folks would be less fixated on "make it 6.25" like an acoustic" and more interested in a breadth of keyboard possibilities. Plus with all the weight we're saving (and the fact that the Beaumont and Elise certainly aren't unplayable due to size) I think it'll be far less ponderous than folks reckon. I see Eric's point, but I think a flip-switch "capo" just doesn't have the possibilities that a slightly expanded keyboard gives us. Plus, with the expanded keyboard, a click-of-the-mouse capo change gets us yet more room to play with. If being tiny is the priority, I think the Paul Everett "gadget" dual MIDI Hayden keyboard is a good compromise. But that would (in theory) be a separate DIY project or different run from a small maker, with more compactness but fewer possibilities. Happy to be corrected, but I think this has serious crossover possibilities (in a small niche of music nerds, but all things being relative) that would help us plus up the number of orders needed to make this happen, and also get more folks interested in concertina overall. This is all quite exciting!

At first I thought you were thinking of an Anglo with the melodeon's keyboards divided across the two hands. Like the first 5-6 buttons of each row on the left, the last 5-6 buttons of each row of the right. I have something like that, a re-reed of a Stagi 20-button Anglo, set up to mimic a C/C# melodeon's right side, divided across both hands (so no bass/chord buttons). I have it up on Melodeon.net as a passsaround, where I'll send it to a few half-step melodeon players in the US for them to play around with. So the "Anglodeon"/Franglo is like a more developed version of the Italian organetto-concertina? The organetto being more like a concertinization of a 1.5-row melodeon, yes? For the Franglo, is there any hybrid concertina maker offering these at all? Or is it only the trad-reed makers with very long waiting lists? A re-reed of a cheaper hybrid Anglo (like I did with the Stagi) doesn't get you the minimum 6 buttons per row that Smeeinit is seeking. Unless you want to buy a small beater Chemnitzer/Carlsfelder square concertina (do they have those floating around Oz?) and convert one of those; that would get you plenty enough buttons on the right side:

I've seen these on eBay a few times, debated on buying one on eBay that ended up going for $147.50 on Mar 10, 2014. I'm aware of Delicia melodeons, which seem reasonably common, but does anyone have familiarity with their concertinas? The endwork seems different from the Italians, and appears to be either cast plastic, or a plasticized coating over wood. Are these basically the same as the post-WWII hybrid Italians or Germans, or did the Czechoslovakians come up with a different competing design?

The Duet market seems pretty unpredictable overall, partially since it doesn't have a clear grounding in particular traditions, so depends a lot on individual interest. I would be interested in hearing more about your small Duet, shot you a PM.

Oh good, I'd followed the deadlinks trying to find that writeup before and was frustrated not being able to find the old instructions since the original website died. So far as dynamics/bellows, rather than having a hinge that measures velocity, given that there's very little span for the hinge to swing through, would it not be better to take a cue from Dean and instead have a pressure-sensitive rod that simply measures pressure/counterpressure so you can "eternally" push or pull it without running out of span? For y'all savvy folks reading the instructions: is this kind of gadget even easier/cheaper to make these days with the improved components? And could one with a smart-tablet (or even just a smartphone?) just use that in place of the MIDI controller, speaker, and maybe even battery? I hate to sound lazy, but as someone who has zero mechanical skills, I also wonder if there's any cost-efficient way a clever underemployed fellow with spare time on his hands could knock out a score of these en-masse of these to sell to 10-thumbed people like me. I'd happily put in some extra overtime at work to buy such a device, if it were inexpensive enough, rather than try to learn how to solder.

Zelda's sounds really familiar; was that one on an Ad Vielle Que Pourra album, or am I mistaking that for another tune? It always throws me whenever people mention "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" because I always think first of the unrelated 2004 song of the same title by the semi-punk band Green Day.

Can you find any maker's name anywhere? Have you checked to see if it's tucked like up against a hand-grip, or somewhere else where it's not immediately visible? In any case, this type of "concertina" is the big square German kind, probably a "Chemnitzer concertina". This group plays more the English-based models, so this is less the local speciality, but this kind of concertina is historically very popular in the upper-Midwest for polka bands and the like, so no surprise at all that you found it in Milwaukee. If you google up "Chemnitzer concertina", and check out http://concertinamusic.com/ (the Central European-American community calls these simply "concertina" in their circles) you'll get a better idea of what you have. That's just some initial info, hopefully some smarter folks will come along soon.

Huh, when first I saw the reply "If you think that $2750 is a premium price for this rare concertina, look elsewhere", I wondered why a scammer would be rude when a nicer answer would seem more convincing and help get in some bids. But now we see that it actually is a real seller... just one that prefers to be rude rather than professional. Would it be that hard to say "We'll try to have photos posted soon, but regardless of internal condition we believe that this instrument is worth at least the $2750 asking price so we'll be starting it there and seeing how the market responds. Thanks for checking in, and watch our listing for updated internal photos later, which I believe will reassure you that our asking price is more than fair!" Took me all of 45 seconds to write that; it just frustrates me when sellers are snotty, particularly since it's just shooting themselves in the foot.

How many folks have to hit "report item" before eBay does anything?

Ah, so with Dean's design, it's necessarily that the buttons be flexible/rubbery? I know Dirge had mentioned that not having smooth metal buttons made things a bit different (despite overall liking the sensitivity). But Dean's way involves having a sticking-up button that must be covered by rubber to work right? Is there any way to "cap the cap" by having a metal or Delrin bit covering at least part of the rubber to present a smoother and more conventional button surface? Man, I'm finding these threads highly educational. Great forum, this.

Not to overlap this too much with the DIY thread, but Łukasz, do I understand right that for programming reasons 64b might be a much easier max number due to the 8x8... hex-something technical whichever reason? If the instrument has extra levers/knobs, do those cut into our "quota", as in would we have to go down to 63b if we wanted to add a volume knob without having to add more processors? I'd imagine an on-board volume knob or roller would be key if available. So far as transposing, what would be really cool if feasible to have a little slider bar that could raise and/or lower the pitch one half-step. Since it's isomorphic, we don't really even need a ton of on-board transposing options, since for example playing F# with either F or G fingering would still get you back to the centre and away from playing along the edge. Aside from just the standard melody buttons, and an air button if using real bellows, does the instrument need more than: MIDI output socket Power cord socket (if it has an internal rechargeable battery) Volume knob Transposing slider on/off button maybe one extra knob with no specific purpose, but that a (MIDI-savvy) user could program for pre-sets

Regarding button speed, Dirge had a really interesting observation in the 2009 thread about S-Wave's MIDI EC: If I read that right, what makes the MIDI a mental shift is that it's better than the acoustic. Anyway, the 2009 thread is really worth reading. I'm not sure that I personally would have great user for a pitch bender, but when I was envisioning extra knobs/switches on a MIDI, for a handstrap model I thought a little tensioned pitch-wheel by the thumb would be convenient, so long as it wasn't somewhere it'd be accidentally brushed. That is one thing that's going to annoy me when I "upgrade" from the Beaumont to a trad-reed: I really like the air button on the handrail (as shown in my avatar). Though probably not patented, I take it that using that same placement for other makers' concertina would be in poor taste, "biting their style"?

Good point; I guess what was rubbing me is that the ends appear to be one of the more investment-heavy parts in the instrument. If you cast them out of resin or whatnot, you need to have molds made, and having to make/buy a different mol for each settup wouldn't be cheap. But then again, I suppose if you cast a "generic" end with any switches/fretwork/knobs, etc you could drill the action holes into said end in whatever format you pleased, install whatever find of rail/rest at whatever angle, etc. I guess it just depends on how much your R&D locks you in to a corner.

Inventor, totally agree with you and b.e.s. re the utility of having a decently large keyboard, ~65b, to move around in. One of the other advantages of having duplicated notes without changing any settings mid-play: you could code the notes to whatever musical temperament you like, so that could result in the Ab and the G# being distinctly different notes at opposite ends of the keyboard, really highlighting the differences in intonation. Inventor, are you saying that you have a strong opinion about hexagon over octagon or 10/12-side designs? I was wondering about this myself a few days ago, and I personally like octagon, but if hexagon has a genuine advantage I'm flexible. While addressing the limited Hayden supply is a happy side-effect, I think acoustic and MIDI concertinas address different parts of the market. I'm less interested in having a MIDI for playing quietly with earphones, or loud through an amp, and having it sound and behave as close to an acoustic is possible (though all those capabilities are desirable). What I'm interested in is things that can't be feasibly done with an acoustic, such as tuning to other temperaments, microntonal scales, trying different keyboard layouts, etc. My whole interest in a MIDI concertina came from my desire to have a Just Tuned, or Quarter-Comma Meantone tuned one. But when I considered the cost of getting a Peacock re-tuned, and then being "stuck" with a instrument with very iffy resale. But with a MIDI I could swap settings and tweak microtonal junk all day with just clicks of the mouse.

That was one thing I was pondering: which keyboards are cross-compatible in terms of physical layout. The Linton system (interesting thread on it) looks like it could use the same physical keyboard as the Maccann, just different encoding of the notes on the computer. I suppose a 40b Anglo could also re-program as a Jeffries Duet? For Hayden, the main one that jumps to mind is the Harmonic Table layout that C-Thru music (a maker of MIDI keyboards) is promoting. But I mainly know of that system due to folks doing the reverse: buying a keyboard intended for Harmonic Table, and re-programming it to Hayden layout. There are probably some other hex-based scales out there, and I'd imagine both hex-based systems, and Hayden itself, would be the best "crossover design", something that would lure non-concertinists to the instrument; pitching it as a "portable jammer keyboard with dynamic control", plus visually more interesting onstage than a flat keyboard, could be a method of bringing MIDI players over. While such would be awfully clever, do you reckon there are enough folks that play multiple layouts to justify the additional technical challenges of detachable endplates?

I'd imagine inventor would have the most detailed notes on experimenting with instrument size, but I'd think something in the 64-67b range would make sense. Large but not so big that it becoomes bandoneon-like and requires sliding the hand a lot more through the strap. I looked at my 7" Beaumont, and I could see fitting the additional buttons onto those size of ends, 7" seems a workable size. So far as price, the S-Wave goes for £1600. For me that's about at the upper limit of what I'd want to pay for a MIDI Hayden this year; if Dean had a Hayden variant out now I could see buying one this summer, but as noted he's sticking with English. For me to pay more than the low-mid US$2000s, I'd have to be gigging more seriously to justify it, and I'd have to be pretty convinced it was a really professional product. So far as features, I'm okay with it not having bellows (like S-Wave) if a piston arrangement would work equally well. But if it turns out that a simple air pressure sensors is easier and cheaper (even factoring the cost of stitching bellows), I'm okay with that too. I just like the piston's "skeletalized" look, plus at least Dean's can be disassembled and laid flat into a case. If it doesn't add too much additional cost, some adjustability of handrest slant would be helpful, since our small community has two different preferred angles on the Hayden. I don't know enough about knobs and switches to have any opinion as to what doohickies (if any) should be integrated into the body to change settings or whatnot, rather than by adjusting on the synth device (laptop, ipad, etc). I have no particular demand for onboard processor or speaker. As long as I can plug a chord into one end of it, I'm fine having an amp and an iPad (to serve as synth) to do all the processing. I'm not opposed to having something more self-contained, but I'd rather have the actual instrument be pretty minimalist; also because that'd make it easy to update the firmware as it improves over the years, rather than having to dig some kind of processor out of the body to upgrade it. For other design inspirations, worth looking at the Streb eMelodeon: - Some Playford with pretty convincing melodeon sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4nnhuo1_hc - A Streb switching to "church organ" sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVT3cSg5CkE

Sounds great! Shoot me a PM, and we'll exchange info and I'll get the concertina mailed up to you. Glad to get it back working and to someone that couldn't otherwise get themselves a concertina. Let me know in the PM too if you want me to peel the celluloid off (otherwise it's liable to get chipped since it's loose at the ends) and pack it with, or just scrap it.

In all seriousness, undoubtedly. The guy wasn't at all folky, retro, or old-school; the qualities that lead modern folks to play acoustic concertina. He was a real forward-leaning guy on the cutting edge of instrument design. Also, outside our small community he's far better known for all kinds of inventive gear; given how keen he was on electricity in general, electronics would've been right up his alley. Or maybe he'd even discover a yet further step beyond electronic music! Just the lede of his Wikipedia bio shows what kind of guy C-Dub was:

I've occasionally picked up Stagi/Bastari/Rigoletto/etc 20b Anglos when I could find them ultra-cheap. Over, I dunno, a dozen+ of them I've had just two lemons that I had to pass along for friends to use as spare parts, mainly one that had several badly out of tune reeds, and one where someone had destroyed the bellows by trying to re-line them inside with thick leather (bellows wouldn't even close). I picked up one today off eBay for $48... turns out to be another semi-lemon. Given that I have too many small projects to futz with, if someone thinks they can deal with the below-listed, and would use the refurbed Anglo to loan or gift to an impoverished student/artist/laborer type, it's yours for free. The celluloid on the ends is held on only by the screws, adhesive somehow gone. It's my understanding that affixing celluloid is trickier than just gluing it back in place, but if you like I can either remove the celluloid entirely (it's just cosmetic, not structural) and secure it between two flat bits of cardboard for safe shipping with the rest. Alternately, if affixing celluloid will be too much of a pain, I can just junk the celluloid (unless anyone else wants it for some odd reason) and send it as just wood, you could maybe give it an awesome spray-paint job with cool stencils or whatnot The rubber bits that hold the buttons onto the levers are all dried out, as is extremely typical of any of these Italian concertinas past a few decades. Easily fixed per the Cnet article (link) in probably 30m or so. All it takes is $2 worth of vinyl tubing; I can send some along in the package if you don't happen to have any. All buttons present and accounted for. As best as I can tell by squinting, bellows seem fine and don't smell notably musty; leather of closing-straps and hand-straps is a little stiff, but doesn't seem dry-rotted out. The main issue is that one reedblock appears to be just fine, the other broke loose somehow, so the reedplates were all lose in the body, and the reedblock itself has a few of its little wood bits bent, but all look like they could be nudged back into place. I can't speak for how in-tune it is currently, though anecdotally I've been really surprised almost all of these I've messed with were reasonably in tune. Despite some external rust on the washers, the reeds look reasonably clean and shiny overall. If you'd enjoy tinkering with and reviving a hybrid 'tina, and might be able to find a poor novice who'd love a beater to learn on (or even just list it back here for a penniless noob for just parts/shipping cost), I can ship it on out to you. As a strange aside, and I could start a thread for this if remotely plausible, is there any clever way a small concertina-focused non-profit could buy up Chinese made 20b Anglos by the case and sell them at-cost for $50 or whatever they cost in bulk? Musician's Friend sells them for barely over $100, so they have to be uber-cheap. If there were a brand that's semi-reliably at least basically in-tune, that could conceivably be a way to get more novices playing just the basics, some of whom would quickly thereafter upgrade to a Rochelle or higher. Not trying at all to horn in onto Wim's amazing work promoting the instrument, just wondering if there's a way to target the younger set at an extremely affordable price point with a just-playable-enough-to-work product. And without just padding the pockets of the big-box sellers who have no real interest in concertina.

Concertina and drone metal seem such a natural combination I'm surprised we don't see more of it. Here's a fella on a Mccann duet, backed up by an e-tanpura, covering "Seven Angels" by Seattle drone metal/experimental/post-rock band Earth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcn2iQyEAZc

Have you yet tried the Hayden "Duettina" app for iPhone: http://www.tradlessons.com/Duettina.html ? Larger layout for the iPad, though not as concertina-esque, is the Hayden keyboard on the Musix app: http://www.synthgasm.com/content/2010/10/01/4-99-app-turns-ipad-into-an-isomorphic-hexagonal-keyboard-synthesizer/ Or is what you're proposing somewhat different from the current apps? I do like those kind of apps; the Duettina is rather small and limited, but I keep it on my phone as an example of the Hayden system. I do however think that something with physical buttons would be a more viable serious instrument, at least in terms of being an actual concertina crossover. Touch sensitive screen keyboards can do some great things that physical buttons can't (like pitch bending!), but even if one were to place two different touch-sensitive screens on either "end" of a concertina shape, I'm not sure concertina players would find it as familiar in terms of being able to index the fingers to the button on a purely flat surface. But the apps do make fun experimental keyboards as one flat surface.

First, let me clarify that I don't know of anyone building Hayden Duets, so this isn't "I have a guy, who's in?" Rather, I'm inquiring because I and a couple of folks have some interest in such a creature, but to my knowledge no such instrument exists as a commercial product. I know there was once Paul Everett's "Gadget" Hayden controller, and old posts from 2003 indicate one Jordan Petkov used to sell some kind of MIDI kit that could be used to make it, but much of the info about these has disappeared into electronic decay... Wim Wakker used to make MIDI Anglo concertinas, looking nearly fully traditional out the outside, but no longer. Paul Hardy at points has converted salvaged Lachenal bodies to MIDI, but I don't know of him doing so with anything Hayden (though perhaps could a junked Mccann be sort of Haydenized, despite the unstaggered rows?). Dean Onyon makes what's supposed to be a very quality MIDI 65b English, with a pressure-sensor in the middle vice bellows. Rather less trad, but probably a simpler solution; I wrote him asking about Haydens but at last check he's sticking with English. I'm interested in seeing if there are other Haydenites (or potential such) who have an interest in a MIDI instrument, and/or ideas about what makers might be convinced to create such. And lacking a current maker, perhaps if interest seems high enough, some maker might give it a shot. The only >55b Haydens are Wakker's lovely but pricey ones at nearly US$9k, and we lack any vintage stock of 61b and 81b acoustic instruments, so a 65b MIDI would be an affordable way to get a nice full keyboard. On this forum a few players have mentioned finding MIDI concertinas really useful for playing in louder modern bands, vice trying to mic up an acoustic. I would broadly estimate that Hayden devotees are more open to modern/experimental stylings, so maybe even more likely to use an instrument that can be played against modern electric ones, and which can allow easy modification of tunings, temperaments, sound types, etc. I'd think it one of the more attractive concertina formats for "gadgety" types. If anyone thinks they may be tentatively interested in such an item now or in the next few years, or has any insights about how such a product could be gained, your ideas would be appreciated!

Ah, is this your custom duet based on the CBA (Accordéon chromatique)? When I first saw the photo in the thread, I thought it was a Jeffries Duet or some other such Anglo-based unisonoric, but CBA makes more sense given the length of the rows.