MatthewVanitas

(I'm sure smarter folks than me will jump in to do the whole "concertinas weren't particularly nautical" bit). Musing here, but my understanding is the first Wheatstone patents were hexagonal (or octagonal?) because the design of the English concertina lends itself to radiusing out. A smidge later in that period the Germans were making more Uhlig-influenced and accordion-esque little square proto-Anglo concertinas. There's not the same layout reasons to make Anglos hex/oct/circle-ish because the layout is different, but I'd imagine those shapes seemed more "upscale" since they resembled the fancier English models. Kinda like putting a spoiler on a family sedan makes it look sportier even though it's not a speedracing car.

For people switching to these new reeds, overall what kind of advantages would we feel in playing? Do they use less air, or are louder, or have a different tone palate? I kinda like my Elise so the idea of upgrading it has some appeal, not to make too much a silk purse of it.

Can you clarify to us what problems it's showing? You mention a few screws that needed to be tightened on the straps, and some rough wood. These instruments are made of plywood with a wood-veneer on top of it, so at some seems you can see the plywood exposed, so that's normal. Is it playing okay overall? If Sam Ash is reasonable about their returns (and/or just takes returns unquestioned like many big-box stores), is there any harm in trying it out a little longer to get a feel for it? No difference between returning it on day 5 or on day 25? I think eventually returning before day 30 does sound reasonable though; if you decide you need more buttons, you could put the money towards a Rochelle. If however you find that 20 buttons suits you well, for not much more than a Rochelle you could buy a vintage 20-button Anglo from a repairer like Greg Jowaisas. I know for a lot of folks here 20 buttons isn't enough, but if you're primarily doing hymns and folksongs, and largely in settings where you can choose the key to fit what you can play (that is, not in a bad where others will demand you do the next tune in key of D), then a vintage 20b C/G might suit you quite well. Also any vintage concertina under 30 buttons has a markedly lower price (since the Irish players snap up all the 30b), so a 20b (or the odd 24b, 26b, etc) instruments can be real bargains. So far as sticking with Anglo: if you're finding the harmonica-like "in-and-out" of the Anglo to provide you intuitive chords and harmonies, that's exactly what it's for, so I'd stick with what works!

INteresting. The reason I asked - I'm hearing more and more that the Morse English concertinas are quieter than the Anglos. Wonder why that is. And apparently the Duets quieter as well; who's the Buttonbox member of Cnet who we can ping on this?

Slight change in that I'm going to be in Bogota for a while first, or even primarily. While slightly let down not to be spending time on the beach, Bogota is way, way larger (Cartagena is well under a million, Bogota metro area is 8 million) and should have a great arts scene. For contrast, in the whole US the only larger urban metro areas are New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington DC, and San Francisco. I'm still a little torn on getting the Pelican IM2075 hard weatherproof case several members have recommended. To one degree, I'm not venturing off into the bush or anything, and I've never felt the lack of such a case in the wilds of DC or New York (and in Afghanistan just has the soft gig-bag for my Elise). Then again, it's not that much larger than the BB-standard case I have, and smaller than the Beaumont or huge Elise cases. Bogota avoids the saltwater issue (at least until work pops up down in Cartagena or Baranquilla), and the temperature is ridiculously moderate, like 45F-65F almost all year. But Bogota rains constantly, really high humidity. So maybe a weatherproof case would be good in case I'm caught carrying it in a drizzle/fog, and I could maybe chuck a dessicant in there. This one looks awesome and has good reviews, and doesn't have the cobalt chloride that supposedly is a cancer risk in other dessicants, plus it's semi-indefinitely reusable and $9: Hydrosorbent I'm also debating getting one of those little widgets that slips inside a case or backpack and interfaces with your phone, alerting you if the case strays far from you, or telling you where it's gone to. Not that I plan to lose this, but if the device is cheap enough it'd be a novelty and some peace of mind, if I can get it to interface with whatever cellular phone or wifi settup I have down there. I'm picking up my restored Crane (thanks to Greg Jowaisas) this afternoon, and I'll measure the case and suss out how much larger the Pelican/Storm would be. I know folks don't like the foam stuff for blocking because it can react with the wood. Is there any expedient way to wrap cotton cloth around the foam blocking just to use it without marring the wood in the meantime? Any other details I'm missing? The Pelican come in yellow too; might get that as a contrast to my usual black cases, and make it very easy to see. Not getting olive drab lest it be mistaken for military gear while traveling. Likewise would put hard thought into whatever stickers I put on it to avoid anything remotely controversial while traveling. The Colombians are skittish about Ireland ever since some "former IRA" gents happened to be in rural Colombia at the same time as the FARC suddenly arrived at some clever new ways to build bombs, so going to avoid any wearin' o' the green on this one. Likewise any sticker which has a "Free [nation/area]!" on it.

I've never gotten a satisfactory answer as to why people just use one latch; seems a major failing for $4k+ instruments. I wouldn't put a single latch on a case for a $100 ukulele, but I'm not a pro dealer. The good keyword to search seems to be "velcro cinch strap". Just they're not as colorful as the nicer luggage straps, but I suppose my stickers are pretty enough as it is. Just need to get some lady's garter to decorate the ends of my concertina like Peter Bellamy used to.

I'm mucking around again with harmonium videos. Really basic stuff, but for kicks did this simple lesson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOZbXrdxs6I) which is just variants of scale climbing, based on a D Lydian (raised 4th) scale. Now is not the best time for me to dive into things since I should be moving overseas soon, but either once I get settled there and get into my Crane, or either move my Beamont overseas or return to the US where it is, I have some inclination to set a daily goal for myself of spending 20m or whatever doing "harmonium lessons" on YouTube with my concertina. Odd suggestion, but wondering if a few Cnet members would be interested, in the indefinite future, of setting up a "study buddies group" here to figure out harmonium on unisonoric concertina together. Maybe have a thread where we can share our plans/progress, recommend video tutorials, album tracks, sheet music etc to each other, look into different regional genres, discuss utter basics of Indian music theory for ET instruments, maybe even set up a few Skype jams together. Heck, if we get crazy maybe even see if we can chip in and buy some Skype lessons with an indulgent pro harmonium teacher. A tentative suggestion, but if anyone wants to be pinged if we do decide to start doing such a course of study, post here or PM me, and I can start poking folks whenever we're all at a good point to kick into some study.

Just downloaded the Decibel Meter Pro app for 99¢ (using iPhone 4S, afaik the lowest model capable of using it right), and here's my rough assessment with holding the end of the instrument 12-20" away from the phone: 2013 Morse Beaumont 52b Hayden Duet: Lowest pitch button: 79db peak Highest pitch button: 80db peak Playing a tune w/ 2 notes on bass, 1 on treble: 86db peak For reference, 75db is singing from 3ft away, 80db is an automobile at 25ft, 90db is a motorcycle 30ft away. Though I always have a little trouble visualizing decibels since it's a logarithmic scale, so small changes in numbers mean much larger increases than if it were straight-line. I dunno, should we set up a thread somewhere just for people to report in on phone-app decibel readings for their various models?

The more I learn about other Duet systems, the more I enjoy Hayden.

I'm up to three concertina cases now, all from reputable sellers, which feature but a single latch to keep the case closed. Am I, a relative concertina novice, just totally missing something here? Is there some great reason that there aren't at least two latches on a given case? I take care to carry my cases with the latch outboard, since I've had at least one or two occasions where an inboard latch bumped my leg and came open. Thankfully it was my cheaper Elsie, and thankfully the case is a good snug fit and it didn't fall out. I vaguely recall a few past threads where a few alternative case makers opined it's daft to have a case design where the handle is on the lid, thus allowing the case to fall open even with the handle held firm. I do wish the "standard" case had a more secure design, but for the moment I've gots what I've gots. That being the case, does anyone have a preferred luggage belt/strap to keep their case closed? Not necessarily a shoulder/hand strap, just a cinchable piece of material that has to be deliberately loosed to allow the case to come open. Either with a sliding buckle, unlocking velcro, knot, velcro, whatever? Not to be too gearheaded, as I'm sure I could just loop a piece of whatever I have laying around the house about the case and it'd suffice, but if anyone has a favorite $5-10 item that looks good, works smooth, etc. I'd be glad to hear of it. I'm vaguely inclined to get something with a sliding buckle rather than one that snaps open, thinking that such a buckle has even less chance of failing than a snap that could somehow be bumped or break a tooth inside. Most hits for "luggage belt" or similar on Amazon, however (such as the pretty little ones from Orb) tend towards the plastic squeeze-buckle, and most are more like 80" long when I reckon 40" or less should work for my concertina cases. I'm probably overthinking this, but am open to any suggestions. And/or people to tell me using a strap is silly, or to endorse that a single latch is a poor idea and a strap is wise insurance.

I suppose it applies equivalently to higher-end hybrids, I just used Morse because that seems the most prolific brand of quality hybrids across all three systems. I've been really impressed by my Beaumont, particularly in how light they kept a somewhat large (7") box, and the smoothness of the action. I have had moments where I've pondered how costly it would be to get someone to CNC-machine brass and plate it to make fitted custom metal ends for my Beaumont, in hopes it would sound a little louder, and more strident/concertina-y. I'm really going to have to play all these things side-by-side before deciding to buy a trad-reed Hayden. I've had points where I've convinced myself that reed type is a small nuance, particularly since we have a few posters here whose bandmates ask they use Stagi for recordings since it "sounds better". But just recently when I play my Lachenal Crane, side-by-side with my Morse, I do end up wishing that I had reeds like the Crane in the body of my Morse. In the meantime I suppose we're all just waiting for one clever guy to have a Newton moment and suddenly figure out an inexpensive way to produce true concertina reeds.

I started out on an CC Elise Duet, got a Morse Beaumont, and now am both on Wakker's waitlist for a trad-reeded Hayden and also playing around with a vintage Crane. Still pondering out how I feel about the leap to trad reeds, whether by getting the Wakker or by getting more seriously into a vintage Crane. I notice the Morse instruments are pretty popular overall, even amongst the players who can/do own trad-reed instruments. Do some folks find the Morses as good as or better than trad-reed for some purposes? Do you keep a Morse around so you aren't risking your "nice" ones, or because it's more reliable/durable, just for a change of pace, or because on some level you find it "better" than other options? Has anyone tried both hybrid and trad and come to the conclusion that you're just happier with a Morse?

Last year I bought a 20b Silvertone (Stagi/Bastari store brand) Anglo concertina that turned out to need reedwork beyond its value, so for kicks I had it re-reeded to C#/C (C being the inner row, closest to the player). Though half-step Anglos have occasionally been made, they never really gained popularity, so I thought having a simple example of one would be enlightening to share with concertinists. I'm fixing to move overseas, and trimming the instrument collection down to the minimum, so even though I put more that I intended to into re-reeding this (by Irish Dancemaster), I recognize it's a weird item, so sellling for what I bought the stock instrument for: $65. Overall in okay fettle, though it could use the usual Stagi tweaks to run smoother and avoid the buzz on some low notes. I don't have a photo, but hopefully we all know what a Stagi 20b looks like. Here's a Melodeon.net thread about my experiment; note towards end user deltasalmon tried it out for a few weeks: http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,14209.msg175485.html#msg175485 Usual donation to Cnet on sale.

Have you yet tried out an English or Duet system just to see how it strikes you? Both of those differ from Anglo in that they don't change notes on the push-pull, but most all the vintage ones are fully chromatic. Personally (and apparently agreeing with Don), if you like Anglo, you may find Duet more appealing and easier to learn than English, since the left hand is your bass side and the right side your treble, and you shouldn't have too much trouble finding at least a basic good vintage Duet (Crane or Maccann) in your price range in England.

Do we have many/any folks on the board who've played both Beaumont and Peacock? It was my impression when I looked into the issue that there are only a few, almost entirely folks who've dropped into Button Box's brick-mortar store at a time when they had both on the shelf.

Re the varying Duet systems: part of me thinks that the difficulty of switching atwixt them may be overrated. While the fingerings vary, the physical motions and fundamental concept are basically identical. To draw a parallel, I'm just an okay strings player, but I don't find it at all confusing to move between plucked strings of different tunings, or even varying tunings on the same guitar. So I don't, and I'm sure the pros don't, despair of playing eadgbe and then switching to dadgad or open-g. I'm very new to Crane, but it's coming to me quick, and even at this stage I'm not feeling befuddled setting down the Lachenal and picking up my Beaumont a minute later.

I actually elected not to upgrade to TAM on the Beaumont since BB, iirc, basically said it really came down to a matter of taste. Broadly speaking they described TAM as "brighter", and since I plan to eventually have a "true" reeded instrument that will have that sharp/piercing tone, I went non-TAM to get a more organ-like droney sound on the hybrid. Ah, I'm just being pedantic. Beaumont I am indeed really happy with, and I'm impressed that it's really not larger (and not even heavier?) than the Peacock despite the extra buttons. But we certainly have happy Peacock owners here, and I nearly was one but had some spare cash from other sales and wanted to overshoot vice risk undershooting on keys and polish. As an aside, so far as the Crane's price advantage over Hayden for trad-reeded: given the (relatively) large number of Hayden Duets being produced in quantity these days, if any decent scattering of Hayden players migrate to Crane to save money, it's going to eventually increase Crane prices to the point that new true-reed Haydens might not look so bad. All the more so if some economized true-reed models arrive to compete on the market, and/or some new technologies make shaping traditional reeds faster and easier. A 55-button Wheatstone Crane can push US$4k on a good day, yes? Not saying it's going to happen anytime soon, but Wim and BB are taking Duet from being a pretty obscure niche, to being something that even a total concertina novice might run across and choose as an option. I would likely never have gotten into Duet had I not seen the Elise on the CC site when I went there considering buying a Jack for song accompaniment.

Hybrid aside, what's the $3950 Beaumont's compromise? The 7" size? While smaller would be nice, it's a very light box (as all Morse designs) and I'm not finding it bulky. I would've been fine with 42b, I just got the Beaumont since I'd heard such good things about Morse's line of instruments. The duplicated chromatics are just occasionally kind of nice, as is the low C# on the right, but I would 100% have bought a Peacock had the Beaumont been not close to production last year.

I've been thinking very similar thoughts. I have an Elise for four years now, bought a Morse Beaumont at the start of this year and been using it for bar gigs. Compared to the Elise, my bandmates quite appreciate my new willingness to play outside of F/C/G/D. I just a week ago picked up a 35b Lachenal Crane from another Cnet member, and been trying that out. I find the Crane layout reasonably intuitive, though I think the more I venture out of key of C the more it'll be annoying me that the fingering for different keys are somewhat different, though not as baffling (to me) as Maccann. My vague impression is that we have a handful of Elise/Stagi Hayden players who ended up moving to Crane for better buying options, though I don't recall seeing same for Maccann. At the moment, I'm 80% sure that ultimately I'll stick with Hayden, buy a Wakker for $5800 when I get to the top of the waitlist, keep my Beaumont for bar gigs and when I want a richer and more organ-like sound, and keep my Elise as a beater for camping, drunken parties, folk festival casual jams, etc. I could see maybe a 15% chance that I'll play the 35b Crane as my main box for the next 6mo in Latin America, and decide that the key changes aren't that bad and buy a 48b Crabb Crane. If 48b Crane just tickles me pink, I'd probably sell my Beaumont and Elise, keep the Lachenal 35b for travel. There's a 5% chance I instead somehow swing to Maccann, and would then have a cheapie 39b and a nicer 46 or 55 Wheatstone Maccann. Zero plan to go Anglo (just can't grasp it) or English (I want to grind on countermelody, basso continuo, etc). This still does not cause me to "doubt" the Hayden system. I think it's a great system, and unlike Crane/Maccann/Jeffries, there are non-concertina instruments that use/can-use the layout, like some keyboards. Also future mass-produced Duets are almost assuredly going to be almost entirely Haydens, as well as any mass-market MIDI Duet, etc. It's an extremely intuitive system, its consistency is lovely, and its ability to "capo" itself and change keys to smoothly is a stellar asset for jamming/gigging.

Hello Tony, my condolences as well. And wise and good of you to take the trouble to ensure your da's instruments go to someone who will pay you a fair price and will appreciate playing them. As Ted notes, these are most likely "Chemnitzer concertinas" rather than the Anglo/English/Duet/etc concertinas most of us play here. Chemnitzers being used almost entirely for traditional German/C.European music and American Midwest polka, while its cousins we play here are largely for English/Irish folk, classical music, etc. The US Concertina Association mentioned above is for American polka musicians who play Chemnitzers. There is a slight chance yours might be something slightly distinct from Chemnitzers, it would make it much clearer to us if you can take photos of the ends, so we can see the buttons head-on to count them and note their arrangement.

Going to Colombia? A little coals-to-Newcastle, don't you think? I don't personally indulge (ex-mil), but from what I've been told street price for a gram is $60 in New York, $5 in Bogota. Re dessicant in general, I grasp the idea, but if the ambient is so humid, would it no be better for the instrument to just stay humid, rather than drying out in the dessicated box, getting humid for a few hours or play, and back in the dessicated box? Or am I looking at it wrong? Unlike previous jaunts of mine to iffy places (like Kabul where I first learned to play concertina), I'm private-sector now, so this one is funded by the Colombian government. I've pondered it more, and the little 35b Crane is playing smoother and smoother the more I play it, so I'm fixing to take that one for its sound/smooth/small. My time is getting short so I'm not inclined to mail it off nor press Greg Jowaisas for a rushed turnaround, but might there be anyone in the DC or Austin area whom I could drop by and give a good bottle of whiskey to for them to do a quick clean of the few reeds that are muffled or buzzy? EDIT: Greg has been most kind and is willing to make an exception on turnaround, so I'll be taking a smooth-running box down!

I'm not 100% until I have the embassy visa letter in my hot little paw, but it looks like my new job may be sending me down to Cartagena for the rest of the year. Colombian port/naval/holiday town on the Caribbean. I'm fixing to take a concertina, but leery of taking a $3800 Morse Beaumont with, so I was thinking instead my Elise. Not a bad box, just a bit bulky, buttons a little mushy; lacks many chromatics but for a folkie that doesn't vex much. However, I just recently bought a small Lachenal Crane Duet from another Cnet'er, and it's not much more expensive than the Elise, nice and compact, plays pretty well (just a few reeds a bit slow/stuffy), decent action. I didn't know Crane layout at all, but finding it passing intuitive, though very spoiled by Hayden duet's scale-agnosticism. I pulled up a couple older Cnet posts about coastal towns, and consensus seems that rust is only particular danger to your steel reeds if you hang out right near the beach/docks, and the sea is frothy enough the wind is catching salt. So for either playing in my apartment, or a public square a few blocks inland, or maybe a balcony a few stories up and a few hundred metres from the sea, that shouldn't have undue corrosion risk? Elise advantages: maybe I could find an accordion repairman who could do some modifications/hot-rodding of it, of the sort that would be too labor-costly in the US/UK but cheap down there. Also I know Hayden system very well, though the key-changing advantage of Hayden is much diminished on a 34-button. And I wouldn't be risking a vintage. And I doubt anyone in that nation is qualified to clean/tune true concertina reeds. In the Lachenal's favor, it'd be a "true" concertina, and if in the end I find Crane layout to be perfectly easy to play despite being non-isomorphic, I can buy a really good Crane for less than half (maybe 1/3) of what I'll pay for a Hayden once I reach the top of Wim's waitlist in 2017. And though clearly I won't be negligent with it (and no disrespect meant to the previous Cnet owner), if disaster strikes, it's a small student Lachenal, not a dinosaur egg or Stradivarius. I'm just musing out loud, so not demanding anyone decide my life or anything, but if you have opinions my ears are open. I hope to do just some casual jamming down there with a local guitarist or vocalist. By hook or by crook I must have an instrument, and I do dig playing concertina. Overall stoked about new job, Colombia is absolutely gorgeous and so are colombianas.

As he's the in-house Chem expert, I shot Ted Kloba a message pinging him to this thread. Just on the off-chance it's something he or a colleague find engaging. I owned a Chem for a while, and fun and big sound though the layout was a big crossword puzzle (I have enough trouble with Anglo). I vaguely aspired to use it for Americana like the band 16 Horsepower does, but just ended up sticking with Hayden hybrid concertina instead to get my organ-like droney sound for accompaniment.

I'd owned a tiny Stagi 18-button English back in the '90s that I never got too skilled on, and had sort of messed with a cheapie 20b Anglo now and then but never found it untuitive, suprising because I was decent on the 1-row diatonic accordion/melodeon. When I went to Afghanistan in 2010 as a researched for Dept. of Defense, I wanted a nice compact instrument, and something multi-tone so I could better develop my sense of harmony. I just play too many melodic and/or dronal instruments. I'd recalled the CC made reputable starter pieces, and mentally was agonizing between English and Anglo, and ended up picking English (and I think the lower Jack for song accomplaniment) since I just wasn't confident in by ability to digest multi-row bisonoric. However, when I went to Wim's CC site to order, I saw there was a third option: the Elise Hayden Duet. I'd aways been vaguely aware that there was a mythical "third kind" of concertina, but I'd always thought of Duets as some kind of ultra-niche following of enthusiasts bringing back odd pawnshop finds from near-death and learning arcance fingering systems with no two 'boxes alike. The Elise though was affordable, new construction, and the bit of me that understands some music theory was fascinated by the isomorphic layout. I'd been vaguely intending to learn to play keyboard someday, and I reckoned that the Elise functioned kind of like a little pump-organ with an unusual keyboard layout, but same unisonoric style, bass on the left, etc. I ordered an Elise and Wim got it shipped all the way to Bagram (double-boxed for safekeeping) in just 10 days or so. And I've been playing Duet ever since, buying a Morse Beaumont at the start of this year, and keeping my Elise for travel and knockaround duty.

Ooh, I knew this would get fun. Historical prices always are. Here's another way to look at it: - £2 2s in pre-decimal money is £2.10 in decimal, right? - So for 1860 at £1=$5, that'd be $10.50, wholesale price in the UK. I have no idea what you'd tack on to ship it across the pond, apply tariffs, and then retailer's markup. Does 100% sound excesssive? Would an out-the-door price in a Boston shop of $15-20 seem credible? - At the start of the American Civil War (1861), monthly pay scales for a Private were $11/mo - For a second I forgot that the owner of this 'box was an enlisted teamster, so I got caught up trying to dig up how much civilian teamsters made, since my understanding is a decent number of teamsters were civilians and/or contractors. But then I double-checked the OP and it says he was a private, so moot point. - Do note, however, that presumably like today a lot of a military man's pay is in benefits vice cash, so likely Martin was getting free uniforms, housing, and chow, so blowing two month's pay on an instrument might not be so terribly unreasonable. When I was a private in the Marines I had easily two month's pay worth of assorted gear (bouzouki, banjo, and actually a concertina come to think of it). - For civilian trades in 1860, per this site a laborer made about $24/mo, and a carpenter or blacksmith about $45. Just for contrast. In the end, can we roughly conclude that Pvt Martin lost about two month's pay on this critter? Though as a private, assuming he was unmarried and not having to send cash home to support family, it'd be two months of almost entirely disposable income, so maybe well worth it just to have something entertaining to do, maybe made him a popular man in camp.