Frankevich

I do not like how it sounds: the sound is muted, the timbre is dull. It does not sound like any concertina or accordion I have played before. I much prefer the sound of the Elise. It must be a matter of taste. "De gustibus non est disputandum." ocd Well, yes, mostly a matter of taste perhaps. But here are a few ideas: when I first got mine, I not long thereafter put a layer of felt inside the left hand end plate, to soften the left hand side which typically, on many concertinas, tends to overpower the right hand side. This helped for sure. Also, when I play (usually in a small room) I usually use ear muffs or plugs, but I have very sensitive ears so that might not apply to everyone. Finally, I have noticed that the Stagi sound (tone) is not perhaps the greatest in the world (and many would agree I think) but I heard one played in concert last week at the Button Box Northeast Concertina Workshop (of NCW) and I was delighted with the the sound quality. Go figure. It was played in a generously sized church, so accoustics play an important part. Try some of these techniques (the felt, ear plugs, different locations to practice, etc.) and you may find that the Stagi sound will grow on you--or at least not be painful to play. Good luck. P.S. I did find the Elise to have a nicer sound, but that was the only advantage to recommend it, if you will allow me the opinion.

How so, "painful" to play? I have a Button Box Stagi and it plays great, although the bellows are perhaps not as easy to push/pull as some, but not a significant problem. In fact, the larger bellows, and greater than usual number of bellows folds, gives one plenty of air. I only tried an Elise once briefly, but the tiny buttons were hard on my fingers. However, often it's just a case of getting used to it. But I just can't imagine what you are describing when you say "painful to play", and 'cringing at the thought of playing it.' Can you be a little more specific?

Yes, I saw it there too, Bill, and even tried it briefly. They are still tinkering with it, but it won't be long now I think. We don't know the pricing yet as they are figuring out that too. Buttons/reeds should be in the 52-54 range. size is 7" across the flats (hexagonal). Possibly some kind of adjustable palm bar and/or thumb strap in place of the thumb cutout--maybe offered as optional extras. Sounded quite nice I thought. Usual nice Button Box quality. In any event, it should be a very welcome addition as a mid price range Hayden.

Gerardo: Especially if you are new to the concertina game, you owe it to yourself to check out the Hayden Duet. You can do almost anything on it once you get familiar with it, and many feel as I do that it is quite easily learned. It is made for playing solo being self accompanying or complementing, and lends itself to learning the delights of chordal and counterpoint harmony. Last, but far from least, is that you can play in 6-8 (depending on instrument size) different major keys (plus their attendant minors) with virtually equal facility! (Does any other instrument exist on which you can do that?) What more could one ask for! See adjacent comments of "Inventor" who created this marvel. Haydens may be 'quite easily learned' but no other duet system requires serious discussion of whether tuning up a Stagi or buying an Elise are better options. What an awful corner to be painted into. I'm not sure 'quite easly learned' is always the best reason for taking up an instrument anyway. Try a duet Geraldo, yes. I came to duet concertinas from piano accordion (and quickly sold the accordion). But ignore the endless drooling of the Concertina.net Hayden devotees because there is nowhere to go to after the very limited range and down-to-a-price beginners instruments except at great expense, almost certainly brand new. Look up Maccan (my choice, and definitely the right one for me) or, if you must, Crane. I agree that "quite easily learned" is not the paramount reason to take up any instrument. However, if one likes the other features or advantages, it "sure don't hurt." Yes, it's true that I am a Hayden "devotee" and, although on the senior side of life, don't drool that much! and certainly not "endlessly". As for "nowwhere to go" for Haydenistas after lower priced beginners' instruments, the Button Box is shortly coming out with a mid range (priced) Hayden, as is Wim Wakker. So, Dirge, we may just convert you to a Hayden yet; as long as you promise: "no drooling"! By the way, has anyone priced a brand new Maccann or Crane lately?

Gerardo: Especially if you are new to the concertina game, you owe it to yourself to check out the Hayden Duet. You can do almost anything on it once you get familiar with it, and many feel as I do that it is quite easily learned. It is made for playing solo being self accompanying or complementing, and lends itself to learning the delights of chordal and counterpoint harmony. Last, but far from least, is that you can play in 6-8 (depending on instrument size) different major keys (plus their attendant minors) with virtually equal facility! (Does any other instrument exist on which you can do that?) What more could one ask for! See adjacent comments of "Inventor" who created this marvel.

Yes, the looser strap does help with mobility in reaching high notes, esp. on the RHS. But in order to help keep control, an idea suggested by Forum contributer Jim Albea has been very helpful to me: get rid of the thumb notch cut-out, and substitute a thumb strap (loop) like the English 'tina players use. Works great! much better control and comfort even with a somewhat loose hand strap, and less strain on the thumb (after initial trial). Albea created a descriptive photo essay link on how to do this. Try going to: www.pbase.com/gardencat/thumbstrap for some nice ideas for doing this conversion.

Flix, I agree with Dirge and Bayliss that the Left/Right Duet volume imbalance is a matter of changing/improving technique (such as lightening up on the left hand) but, I also am of the opinion that at least for the Stagi with which I am familiar, the left side can tend to overpower the right, and I think this is somewhat a feature of Duets in general given their very nature of physically separating low notes from high ones. (This might be a problem for some piano players as well!) Baffles of one kind or another have often been used to ease this problem (see the excellent article on baffles on the www.concertina.com web site.) I stuck some nice felt under the end plate on the left side which improved things noticeably. So the advice here is maybe to try the felt, but to not worry about it as your improved techniques will eventually assist, and if you graduate to a better instrument, that should help too. And the gentleman who suggested that in any event a listener might find the sound more balanced than the player, is an interesting idea as well. Good luck, Frank

Hi Blake, There are no known published tutors for the Duet, but go to the www.concertina.com site and search the Concertina Library box (middle, right of page) under "Hayden Duet". This will give you lots of references to Hayden material among which under #3 if you click on that will get "All Systems Duet Workshop Tutor". Click on that to get the pamphlet by Hayden called the "West Country Concertina Players". Starting on page 4 or 5 (they are not numbered I believe) to about page 20 is Brian Hayden's very useful tutor for the Hayden Duet. (The rest of the pamphlet is concerned with other Duet systems.) This is a great source for a beginner as it is graduated, or graded, from simple to more complex tunes. The other references besides #3 mentioned, are #'s 5, 7, 10 etc. etc. which have quite a bit of info helpful for learning this great instrument. Brian Hayden wrote quite a lot of stuff to help the aspiring Haydenista! and it's all here on this great web site! The mechanical aspect of playing the Stagi is sure to be more difficult than the English Morse, as the Stagi is not nearly the quality of the Morse. Don't know if that is part of your problem, but I have been playing the Stagi for about 4 years now and become fond of it in spite of its shortcomings. As for the Hayden system itself, it couldn't be more user friendly and is quite ingenious and beloved by all who take it up. So, check out these sources, stick with it and you will not be disappointed! You can play all kinds of different things on a Hayden. Enjoy! Best, Frank East

Quote (from Frank) The whole point of the Hayden for me is that you can play with equal facility in 6 to 8 different principal keys, depending on the button layout. Matthew wrote: I think I've seen it argued both ways here on CF: at least a few folks argue that transposability is only a happy coincidence, and the real benefit in the system is the consistent relationship between notes (jump up and right for a fifth, up two and rightish for an octave). That's certainly the appealing part for me, and being able to transpose (within the Elise's limited keys, which meet my folk needs fine) is icing on the cake. Comment: Hi Matthew, when I said ability to play in different keys "with equal facility" it is exactly this easy ability to TRANSPOSE that I was talking about that is a hallmark of the Hayden. As you put it, it is that "consistent relationship between notes" (emphasize CONSISTENT) which is the particular genius of the design, and enables the easy transposing. Within the 6-8 principal keys aforementioned (C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb, Eb) depending on how many and which buttons your instrument has (I'm talking 46 buttons and up here) the instrument does the transposing for you! because of the "consistent button relationships". Can't beat it! As for that Elise again, I am sure you can play some nice music on it within its limitations, but as Boney pointed out, it may not be terribly unlike the 20 vs. 30 button Anglo situation: no one is saying you can't make good music on a 20, BUT, more buttons/reeds, more versatility. However for starters, as I suggested before, why not get some experience with the Elise and then when ready, think bigger. My guess is that it won't take you long to outgrow the Elise. As for the South Africans, if they aren't doing 46 or more, I'd say forget it. Best, Frank

Hello Matthew, I liked reading your interesting comments, and it is certainly not "daft" to be asking some questions about the problem of finding a good Hayden for a reasonable price. I have been sadled with this problem for a few years. The solution for me was to go with a 46 button Stagi, which has served me faithfully for 4 years, even though it has some shortcomings and quality issues. (For a few hundred more, and if they had consulted with the inventor himself, they could have come up with a winner, but they blew it.) Now I hope to move up to a new Tedrow (www.homewood.net) which will have hopefully 8, 10 or even 12 more buttons than the Stagi. Of course the Tedrows are not inexpensive, but they are hand crafted in this country and are of first class quality, tone, and beauty. I couldn't see moving from a Stagi to another 46, and as far as an Elise goes, or a 34 that you mention, they are pretty much toys in my book (albeit good for beginners, perhaps.) (I'll probably take some flak on that one!) The whole point of the Hayden for me is that you can play with equal facility in 6 to 8 different principal keys, depending on the button layout. The key phrase is: "with equal facility". I don't know offhand of any other instrument which can boast of such capability. So why not just stick to the Elise? and then as you progress get a better quality instrument with more capability like the Tedrow, or hope that someone comes out with a good midsize (c. 54-56 buttons/reeds) for a bargain price (but don't hold your breath on that one!) Maybe those South Africans could do it, but to interest me, they would have to have alot more than 34 buttons for reasons above. Hope this has been of some help. Keep safe out there in A-stan. Best, Frank

Thanks for writing, Boney. A few replies if I may. Re. "chromaticity", the idea kind of appeals to me I suppose because every other instrument I can think of has it, except perhaps a kazoo. But I am not married to it as evidenced by my latest thinking which is to take the lower left side C# and D# on the standard Tedrow layout, and replace them as D and C# high up on the left. Hence "chromaticity" is no longer on the lower left--I'm no longer hung up on it. As for "symmetry" and "equity" between the sides, this is the most key concept to my idea of improved "tonal balance" and "reversed end capability" (see below). "Looks" has nothing to do with it; it's how the instrument sounds, if you catch my drift. Ah, playing with "reversed ends". Have you ever tried it? Actually you wouldn't, for all practical purposes, be able to manage it if your 'tina has the Hayden 10.5 degree "slant"--just do-able but totally awkward (however, worth a try). You really need a "Wicki" palm bar PARALLEL to the button rows, and preferably a moveable--especially lateraly--palm bar as well, both features of which will be on my new Tedrow Duet. You should consider getting one, he also makes beautiful looking and sounding instruments. Playing "reversed ends" can therefore be alot of fun and gets some interesting sounds; it adds a WHOLE NEW DIMENSION to an already versatile instrument. Lets talk a minute about "range" and "tonal balance". It may just be a matter of personal preference, but every Duet player I ever knew pretty much agreed that the instrument is imbalanced in favor of the left side, in that the lower notes tend to--dramatically in some instruments--overpower the treble, melody side. Hayden himself and others I know of, have recognized this by cautioning to go lightly with the left hand chording, favoring single note (especially) and double note harmonies-- except perhaps in places of emphasis as in end of passages, sections, or end of tune. So for me, the question is: why go for lower ("heavier", stronger) notes which will only overpower the melody even more? Baffling techniques--especially peraps of Duets--have been around for a long time--with good reason. (Gaskin, I think it was, did a nice article on baffles and their history on his Concertina.com site.) Finally, "tonal balance" means to me what sounds best for duet playing or singing. For example, I think it is--arguably--a generally recognized principle that duets of "close harmony" such as a soprano and an alto, or a tenor and a baritone, sound better than a soprano and tenor, or tenor and bass, respectively. If you will forgive a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you say that a violin and a viola, sound better in duet than a flute and a trombone? (I was tempted to say, better than a piccolo and a tuba--but that's just taking liberties!) Well, if you don't agree, we'll just have to agree to disagree, and put it down again to personal preference. Your last remark about 'not wanting people to think my criteria were universal' is not likely to happen! Reason being that--at least judging from the Forum discussion contributors--it's just the opposite: the prevailing views as far as I can make them out, want more top to bottom range--especially lower notes like yourself--not more "overlap", balance, or higher left side notes like myself. Which is the real reason, I guess, for writing all this, namely, I'm just trying to improve the instrument--by having some innovations done on my forthcoming Tedrow Duet order--and thereby suggesting to Hayden players that YOUR CRITERIA--not mine--shouldn't become universal! High or low, keep on squeezin'. Frank E.

That's really interesting news, Bob! Will it also be having the palm bar "off the vertex"? (i.e. bar parallel to the flat side directly below it, and perpendicular to the flat side which sits on one's lap.) Have been following the progress on Twitter, along with your other beautiful creations, and will continue to do so. Keep up the good work. Frank E.