BW77

Well then, it is *known* that several factors influence differences in *tone* from different reeds - different tongue material and shape, different shoe material and shape e t c . Maybe systematic research has been done, but reports seem to be few. So David, go ahead! Some kind of tone spectrometric registration and documentation is necessary to make findings objective. Sadly enough our ears sometimes are more sensitive than the equipment or at least interpretaton of technical findings vs audible sensations is a challenge.

..." like feeling your toes, even when your leg's been amputated" This phenomenon - "phantom pain "- is usually not explained as a "psychological effect" but rather as a physiological/neurological effect from a misinterpretation by the brain of remaining sensory input from the cut-off peripheral nerves. ...There likely is some "psychology" involved as well... After trying it out some times as I said I do wonder however *what* psychology might be involved if you ..." hear the approximate pitches from the air rushing through the tuned chambers"... then you would "hear" the notes coming out also when manipulating the buttons without moving the bellows. I definitely do not myself, but by systematic intentional training maybe you can learn to "play" a silent instrument and "hear" it as well. I might guess that hearsay is involved in the *empty tuned chamber phenomenon"

David, I am not sure I completely understand.. the situation You said: ". It sounds just like a harmonica reed when played, yet on the bench when I had it in a shoe to profile, it sounded like a concertina reed " "When played"...was that on the bench again or after reassembly in the instrument ? that means: did you make the comparison between the sound of your new C5 reed 1) in an individual shoe and 2) in the reed plate ? ....BOTH cases on the bench OR did you compare the sound of the new C5 reed 1) in an individual shoe on the bench with 3) in the reed plate but after putting it back in place in the instrument and *playing* it there ?

There is a short film somewhere in which Steve Dickinson offers the theory espoused in question 1, and I have seen it written as a quote from him also. Can you ( or someone else) locate that film "somewhere" or the said quote? I find it all so strange like I said .I have tried it ( being too curious not to...) a couple of times despite spontaneously rejecting the idea regarding it as a travelling tale. Anyway no such phenomenon can be detected and furthermore even in theory it is contradicted since the reed chamber sizes do not correspond to the wavelength of respective reeds and the progression of chamber sizes does not correspond to the progression of tone frequences either. I have a vague memory that the idea regarding "tuned chambers" may have appeared in some old textbook or encyclopedia too. It may even have been an old marketing gimmick when the partitions of the chambers were introduced. Something för our historians...?

David, comments on the paragraphs 3,4,5 above 3) This idea has been brought forward before also but such effects are hardly present. Despite the common reedplate may *vibrate* it is not likely that this may cause any significant change in the tone production from the active reed and despite some of the other reeds on the same common reed plate may *vibrate* in sympathy with the truly active one since you have no air passage in them a possible humming from them is not expected to influence the audible sound. Maybe it ought to be tested in a lab after all. My guess is that the difference in tone is related to other fctors 4) This item however has been thoroughly investigated under lab conditions .The frequency-response of cassottos shows two main features : a) under ca 1000Hz there is an amplification pattern and above ca 1000Hz a damping pattern. a) likely caused by "formant resonance" related to the size and volume of the cassotto ( similar to what you get with the human throat) likely caused by an absorption in the cassotto of high overtones "Back pressure" on the reeds is hardly an issue in reality 5) Well, everything you put above ( or underneathh...like "baffles"..) covering the outlet of air in the endplates may have some influence on the tone for sure just as a varying opening area of fretwork has. BUT, you will mostly be surprised how much *sound* that comes from a concertina even if you almost completely cover the outlet of the endplates. The principle with covers ( "verdeck" in german ) has been widely used in accordion production and the effect generally is damping/absorption of higher overtones.

"sounded different because the plate transmitted to other of the reeds on the same plate which possibly responded" I wonder if that is possible really...*what* do you mean might be transmitted in such case? "as accordions got reeds put into chambers,.... the reeds became more mellow, and often louder" Just some terminology nit-picking: The*reed* sound likely does not change but the *tone* outside the chamber/instrument " These cassotto chambers made the reeds more mellow," Again....the *reeds* are not affected. The cassotto influence acoustically probably is a combination of "formant resonance" and absorption of higher overtones "has anyone experimented with a concertina and noticed what difference the cupped hands held either side of the instruments makes: I believe it changes the sound" Probably have many such experiments been carried out but reports seem to be few. Concertina maker George Jones is said to have tried increasing the volume underneath the endplate to achieve an "organ-like" sound. That probably would work in a similar way as the said accordion cassotto.

Try one instrument with as varying key pressure as it often is, even with "high quality concertinas" , just like Steve reported, and compare playing comfort with one that got a well adjusted keyboard i e with a tolerance say +/- 5 grams at most. It is rather strange that concertina players accept such variations ( also concerning button height, which may differ a lot on restored/reconditioned instruments unless attended to in particular) . The circular arrangement of the mechanism of course makes it more difficult to get an even keyboard than with the straight accordion mechanism for example.

The common metallurgy/goldsmith method to achieve the same is to "draw" a thread through a sequence of holes to smaller diameter so if you want to produce springs for concertinas from wire you choose a slightly wider thread and draw it to the wanted tension and diameter. To get the wanted spring action you can experiment with the number of loops also, depending on what character of resistance you prefer. ( Do NOT be tempted to use "lighter action" to make it faster. This is a misunderstanding. You get "faster action" of course by using as high spring tension as you can tolerate by your own muscular strength. You have the same conflicts with pianos for example. Some people intentionally exercise with high key resistance and perform publicly with less resistance (and another piano hopefully...).

Questions above indicated by 1) and 2) 1) No ! - I have always wondered where this strange idea originally comes from... One way to find out of course is to try it in real :-)... Takes a little time but the result ought to be convincing.... 2) No - this also comes up now and then. The reed chambers are necessary if you want a double action instrument, i e one which works both on push and pull. With a single action instrument - like common single action basses - you don't need any reed chambers, nor valves. The chambers are usually made as small as possible, just to offer enough physical space for the reed and its swinging amplitude but response is influenced by chamber size. For instance early englishes had no chamber partitions or just for the top notes, Some time ( late 19th century..somebody certainly knows better when...) partitions were introduced for all chambers and on old instruments people started having cork partitions added for the same reason. If they are removed the ”response” may become a bit slower, the general sound a bit less loud, and the tone a bit ”warmer” or ”less harsh”, likely a result from absorption of higher overtones.

Re 1) Moving the hand rail surely gets you closer to the keyboard but the restriction of the action range is still same, isn't it? If the lower endplate had been elevated ( Bandoneon-wise) the hand might slide smoothly underneath the strap and flexibility would be improved, don't you think? Re 2 ) But then you either have to hit the low buttons with the finger nails or rotate the instrument quite a bit? Re 3) I checked your recording and it sounds to me as if you mainly make leaps between high and low notes and put in the low notes when they come in handy in the melody line, rather than play high and low notes simultaneously? No critics , I just wonder.... Polyphonic playing with the English and particularly accompaniment of a melody line really is a challenge and picking the "right" tunes for it makes things more achievable for sure. Waltzes for instance all by them-selves may offer pretty good conditions...many marches too I think

I wonder...I would rather say that 3 rows ( as with the common Anglo ), or maybe 4, is what may be regarded as fairly comfortable. When we get to 6 rows or even more as with the common Englishes ( and large Duets) it is hardly manageable playing with a fixed hand position - you have to slide as you say with the thumb in its strap or rotate the hand with the thumb acting as a pivot. To me your method separating the job between outer fingers and the others seems to call for extreme dexterity or finger flexibility and you hardly reach the extremes with a 56 or 64 key instrument, do you? Even with a lot of practice... The point with the bandoneon design in this respect is that the elevated hand works in a more physiological neutral position ( with the wrist neither extended nor flexed ) and the fingers may act in a more relaxed position too. The reachable keyboard zone becomes larger ( compare with keyboards of Bandoneons) and the palm of the hand may slide comfortably while retaining its contact with the instrument making management of the bellows more stable and thus offering better articulation as well since the hand will not wobble as much between the endplate and the wrist strap. Don't you experience that with your baritone-treble? With the common treble it is worse, players with average size hands hardly get any comfortable contact between the palm and the endplate at all and setting a wrist strap tight will lock the wrist in a very awkward hyperextended position.

I guess this might be achieved if the lower part of the endplate was raised (say 20-40 mm) as with some old style bandoneons and combined with a wrist strap being wider than the common ones ( say 50 mm ) - unless you rotate the EC keyboard 90 degrees and manipulate it transversely instead ( as with the Anglo )