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Irene S.

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Posts posted by Irene S.

  1. Lisa - I have sent you a personal message just in  case you do not see this . Like Al, I had been wondering what had happened to Jean. We had been Facebook friends and had had some conversations but not for some time.  My condolences to you and your family.

    Six recordings of Jean playing are available on the website of the International Concertina Association, and are downloadable. They can be found at numbers 2-7 on this page.
    https://concertina.org/sound-library-old/son-of-readers-tapes/
     

  2. Following on from sadbrewer's comments about the Workhouse Records, I have continued the search which I had started earlier, and found further records via Find My Past which had not been particularly obvious. Two of them probably clear up the weirdness of the age at date of death on the death certificate. Quite clearly both John and Sarah had arrived at a state of poor health and financial constrictions .


    The Liverpool Workhouse records show an admission Dec 8th 1910 of a Sarah Maccann ,discharged from the workhouse on 10 December. She was admitted from 182 Kiln Lane. Whilst it is not clear whether this is Sarah, John'e "wife" the age is about right, being 38 years old on date of admission. So there is a question mark on whether or not this is Sarah Jane (see below, however).

    However, on 6 September 1913, John McCann, shown as 68 years old and described as "old and infirm" was admitted to Liverpool Board of Guardians Workhouse. alongside his wife ,Sarah McCann, 42 years old (which would be the right age) described as Temporarily disabled. Sarah is shown as having previously received Parochial relief (which might well suggest that the 1910 entry is indeed for her), whereas John is shown as not having been in that position. The addresses that they were admitted from were different. John was shown as Long House, Daulby Street, whereas Sarah's is shown as 21 Bridport Street. Both were discharged on 8 September 1913. As you might expect, given the way that workhouses at the time operated they were admitted to and discharged from different wards from each other ... but are specifically shown as husband and wife in the records.
    There might be various reasons for the odd discrepancy in John's given age - might he have provided that to the governor of the workhouse under whose auspices they were both admitted- or did the governor just record the wrong age, which was then carried through onto the 1915 records?

    Interestingly John's description is given as "street singer", so no longer working the halls but presumably down to begging on the streets/football matches or in pubs to make ends meet? Which would fit with that description mentioned earlier in this thread from 1950 (?) of him having died in poverty.

    Following his death Sarah was again to enter into the workhouse - Sefton General Hospital, Toxteth Park Workhouse on 11 October 1916, her address being shown as that of her sister, Emily Brown at 1 Toxteth Place. She is described as "Phthsis and Dest (ie destitute), Phthsis other wise being tuberculosis. She was to remain in the hospital for quite some time, being discharged on 30 August 1917, but was readmitted on 31 December just 4 months later with what was described as acute bronchitis. Her final entry for date of death was 14 May 1918, where her condition was described as pulmonary tuberculosis. Her entry showed her as being a widow, and her sister as being her relative, and also recorded that her husband John was a musician. (She had again been admitted from her sister's address in Toxteth Place).

    The records for the workhouse showed a variation in entries for her date of birth that in 1916 showing it as 27 August 1873, that in 1916 giving it as May 27th 1872. (Well at least the entries both agreed on it being 27th! )

    So all three of his wives, actual or bigamous, died in straightened circumstances
    Elizabeth died in Devon County Asylum in Exminster in 1914 having being admitted there on 27 January 1914, Minnie died in the workhouse in 1908, and Sarah who outlasted them all died in poverty and ill health in Liverpool Workhouse in 1918 .


     

    • Like 2
  3. 2 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

     

    No sorry I didn't see your previous post Irene...I'd started on this this morning before you posted , and previously there seemed to be a bit of uncertainty as to the 1915 death. I did find the 1911 census return and a 1918 workhouse entry for Sarah where it stated her husband had been John (musician) but that Nok was now her sister...if that was previously posted...apologies I missed it.  The idea was to at least narrow the death down into that 1911-1918 period.   If it's of interest it gives Sarah's Dob as May 27th 1872.

     

    Below is the link

    https://gw.geneanet.org/kimd10?lang=en&iz=0&p=john+hill&n=maccann

    A bit strange as your first post actually quoted my own! LOL Thanks for the link. On checking it I see that it is a website for people to deposit their family trees, which explains why the details are identical to those on Ancestry - same individual has obviously posted. As before, it is unfortunate that people often get their details wrong - there are several people on Ancestry for instance who have showed his death as occurring in West Ham in 1917. Certainly a John Maccann, but a completely different one. As I said , that is the information that a gentleman living in Australia (I'd need to go back to Ancestry and check that it wasn't New Zealand! )had posted up on Ancestry some while ago.

    I had already posted up the details of the workhouse entry for Sarah's two week stay in the surgery yesterday, but have just noticed that you have posted details for an entry in workhouse records for 1918 - I was about to search for more detail about Sarah, but as far as I can see that is new information to the thread. At first I thought you had got details of a strange individual by the name of Nok (and went off piste thinking about Nog in Star Trek !) - then realised that it was probably short for Next Of Kin (hadn't come across that designation before) (so have edited my previous post to acknowledge what appears to be a find (without having gone through the whole of the thread again ... 🤣 ... it's getting late at night and I need to retreat to bed ... LOL)

    The obituary for the death which was tracked down by Crane Driver about 8 years ago had already established the year and month of death as October 1915. There wasn't really uncertainty about that as the details in the report made it quite clear that  the individual being discussed was John Hill Maccann the concertinist. What was missing was the  death certificate which had not been traceable, which pins down the exact date, place and cause of death which were missing. Trying to find it on Ancestry or Find My Past proved somewhat problematic, but using information from Free BMD and the approximate date of death which had been established I was able to order the certificate. This had already been attempted through a different source several years ago.

    Have a read of the full thread! You can thrill to speculation that he might have been abducted by aliens, or went down with the Titanic, that he might have been a roller skating specialist (not proved, but the jury mostly thinks not), read about an apparently shortlived duo with his sister as a vocalist, about Minnie attempting legal action against ladies making comments about her (would love to know what those were), about Minnie dying in the workhouse, and JHM's "marrying" Sarah very shortly afterwards and falsifying entries on the wedding certificate. It's all there ... (Without trawling back through the thread I think you will find that Sarah's date of birth had also been established.) 🙂

    • Like 1
  4. On 2/17/2023 at 6:06 PM, sadbrewer said:

    Continued

     

    Snap 2023-02-17 at 18.05.42.png

    Errmm ... yes you are rather repeating information already on this thread, the addresses from census returns have all been posted up as far as members have managed to track them down (and more from other sources than census) and if you care to read my post before yours you will see that I now have his death certificate - his date of death was actually 12 October 1915, and not 10 October 1915 as the contributor of your information posted. The summary you have posted is information from a family tree posted on  Ancestry, and as with so much family tree information posted there it is not to be relied upon entirely I'm afraid (although looking at it the format looks slightly different, but the provider of the information is quite clearly the same one in view of both the information provided, and the title heading on his family tree page - which made me laugh. ) . A lot of the information that the individual who posted it put up was actually gleaned from this forum discussion as far as I could see when I was looking at it during the week. As an example of divergent information, the  the date of death there is shown as 10 October 1915 (although with no indication of any evidence for using that date), and age at date of death as 57, both in the same entry... both wrong unfortunately as in 1915 Maccann was actually 55. It looks to me as though some information which was already on the family tree was altered later,  since we have date of death shown before date of obituary.

    Contributors to this thread and an earlier one have provided a lot more detailed information (it's worth reading in full). The "marriages" to Minnie (who died in the workhouse in 1908) and to Sarah Jane Kennerley (the marriage certificate makes interesting reading) were both bigamous as his wife Eliza was still alive and kicking, and undivorced until she died in 1914. It'll take a while to read through the whole thread, but I think you will find the twists and turns of the research that members have carried out interesting. His life would make an interesting film script I reckon, although somewhat depressing in some areas.
    (I have by the way, messaged the Ancestry contributor eaerlier today with updated information about date, place and cause of death as he had obviously not already got that.)

    PS Where did you actually find that detail?

    • Like 1
  5. I have just been re reading some of the earlier parts of this thread, and notice that 8 or more years ago I was trying to track down the date and place of Professor Maccann's death (alongside several others), and I gather from a conversation with Stephen Chambers elsewhere on Facebook this week that a death certificate had still not been tracked down (someone having tried but being told a death certificate for a date recorded in 1915 was untraceable.) Having taken up an interest again, I'm happy to say that I have just been staring at a copy of the death certificate which I have obtained for John McCann, musician, in Liverpool Workhouse on 12 October 1915, which accords with the dated obituary of 14 October 1915 recorded earlier in this thread.

    It may be that some early research was scuppered by assuming that the date of December 1915 in some records was the month of death, whereas in the records it records the end of the quarter in which the death was registered. I think, also, that some assumed that the date of death given of 69 meant it could not be the same person. The professional geneaologist of my acquaintance (40 years' worth of experience of tracing even the most notoriously difficult to find individuals!) assured me before the certificate copy arrived that the date of death on a certificate is only as good as the knowledge of the informant. In this case the informant was the Governor of the Workhouse. (Said geneaologist snorted and indicated that she was not surprised at the inaccurate information - informant not a relative, and maybe noone else available to provide the information.  )

    So, all said and done,it wasn't aliens after all.

    The details are as follows:

    When and where died :   Twelfth October, 1915  Liverpool Workhouse Infirmary U.D
    Name and surname  :      John McCann
    Sex:                                   Male
    Age:                                   69 years
    Rank or Profession:           Musician of 35 St Anne Street U D
    Cause of Death:               Bronchitis  (2) Cardiac Dilatation  Certified by F J Devlin MB
    Signature ,Description and Residence of Informant:
                                               W Bray ... Governor Liverpool Workhouse
    When Registerd:                Nineteenth October 1915

    I just had a look at the images of the address given in St Anne's Street on Google maps, which now appears to be a multistorey car park (not sure about that) on a dual carriage way, although there is a Victorian building standing on the opposite side of the road  ... but everything else on the Street is modern.

    So, although the age at date of death on the certificate is quite clearly an inaccurate one ... all the facts fit ... date of the obituary which clearly shows that the Maccann /McCann who died had played in exalted circumstances in his earlier years, but had by the date of his death been reduced to playing in front of football crowds and in pubs and was obviously in reduced circumstances (as evidenced by his "wife" Sarah's residency in the workhouse for a fortnight in 1913. They had obviously had to move from their address in 1913 (always assuming that Sarah was still with him in 1915).

    I was interested to check up on cardiac dilatation - it seems that among the symptoms are tiredness, shortness of breath, swelling in legs, ankles, stomach, chest pain etc. There are apparently a number of possible causes of the illness, hereditary tendencies being one. Interestingly, given some of the speculation on the thread, one of these can be alcohol misuse and one of the risk factors for the condition can be longterm excessive alcohol use . However, having said that there are many other possibilities. Whatever the case he was clearly in a very poorly way

    If I was closer to Liverpool I would love to make a visit to the local record office concerned to see if there were entries for him in the Workhouse records to flesh this out a bit, but if there is anyone who is able to do this, I would love to see what came of it.

    What a sad end. From "King" or "Champion" of concertina players, playing in front of Royalty , making trips around the globe as a celebrated concertinist to playing in the pubs or at football matches, and then dying in the workhouse.




     

    • Like 1
  6. I've been absent from this thread for rather a long time, and for some reason the other night started delving into John Hill Maccann's online records. Having posted up one or two facts that had leapt at me from some stuff on Ancestry on Facebook Stephen Chambers alerted me to the fact that he had already posted up about Maccann's sojourn in St Georges Hospital, transfer to Bethlem etc. Strangely, not having looked at this thread in over 8 years I had forgotten a lot of the information on the thread, although I was obviously a part of it at one point!! (Must admit I have been absent from Cnet for quite a long time).
    However, in the course of some later digging around in the online resources, I came up against some information which I don't think has actually been recorded here anywhere. (It is a rather long thread, so I may have missed it.) I've long been fascinated by that marriage record from 1908 and the subterfuge of the false entries, not to mention the family background (like father ,like son). So this evening I decided to have a look for any information on Sarah Jane Maccann ... and a search on Find My Past threw up just two entries at time of search (the search engine always seems a little quirky and can provide alternative information on further attempts). And what it threw up was a couple of entries for the lady which showed that she was admitted to the Liverpool Workhouse on 17 May 1913, where she is recorded as 42 years old , and the wife of John Maccann ,musician from the address 53 Kempston Street in Liverpool. She was discharged from the Workhouse on 30 May 1913 (so a stay of just under two weeks).The record shows where she was located in the house as "Surg", which I take to be "surgery" although without access to the actual records of the inmates I have no idea whether that guess is accurate or not. The records show that her husband was resident at the same address.
    if this information is already on this thread - apologies. If not, it would appear that at least we know that the aliens had not yet abducted Professor Maccann.

    I have googled the address and looked at the online image of it as it is now - looks a pretty ribby district now, and the address currently houses what looks like a rather rundown music venue "Round the Corner". A lot of the windows in the houses at the location have been bricked up in the past. Heaven knows what it was like in 1913.

    I became interested in the fact that in December 1913 at a degree ceremony of Liverpool University an honorary degree was awarded in recognition of of eminent public services to Professor John Maccunn (which the Newspaper library had flagged up as John Maccann) ... a bit disappointing, but clearly two different surnames! 🤣

    Sits back and waits for somebody to tell me that this information is on this rather long but fascinating thread already!
     

  7. On 6/7/2019 at 12:16 PM, Alan Day said:

    I wonder if anyone can help me .I have an old recording on cassette from a Dave Townsend ,concertina weekend  Of I think Jean Megly playing a Russian Tune. There is a lot of laughter on the recording so I suspect it is him , Was this recording on the ICA selection of him playing .If not I will get it posted on the Duet recordings page,

    Al

     

    Al, I scoured the Various reader's submitted tapes for Duet players several years ago, and there are certainly about 4 on there of Jean playing - I am not, however, aware of any with a lot of laughter on them, so I suspect the answer is it is not on the ICA selection.

  8. On 5/15/2019 at 6:07 AM, JimR said:

    Is a CD required? An mp3 album would still need releases, etc, but the costs of CD creation could be avoided.

    Having been brought into the fold of Maccann players by the splendid Ralph Jordan,Maccann player extraordinaire, and studio engineer and studio manager equally extraordinaire for the BBC, I was educated to understand that sound qualities of mp3 recordings are not as good as CD quality. I rarely purchase mp3 recordings online = CDs every time for me.

  9. 3 hours ago, Dee746 said:

     RE your comments about CDs -  It's interesting.  My CDs are still my favorite listening medium,  but youtube and internet streaming are now a regular part of my listening experience.  However, my 20 and 30 something nephews and nieces, all of whom play musical instruments, one of whom was a theater major and now is a full time actor in the actor's union, all get a glazed look on their face and change the subject when I ask if they'd like a CD for a Christmas gift (I've learned to buy itunes credit cards instead).  They use their smartphones to listen to music.  They listen to pandora on their laptops.  They  download mp3 recordings off the internet or purchase them on Amazon or itunes and make permanent playlists the length of the average CD, sometimes stored on their phones, or a flash drive or microdisk they can plug into their mp3 player or boom box or smart phone with speakers for parties.  Technology moves on!  We used to listen to the radio, then albums, then CDs...OK, I admit it I still own some beta videos and a player...B)


    I have to admit that I have no idea what pandora is! I may have to go away and look it up. As to mp3s, having fallen into friendship and musical partnership with an experienced "audio butler" who professed to have good ears, I was taught that CD recordings were preferable as they avoided the inevitable compression that was a part of the mp3 process (and I immediately add that I have never done any comparison to enable me to judge the veracity or otherwise of that view).

    Personally I prefer the physical feel of a CD, the sleeve notes which I can contemplate while listening etc. Interestingly enough, of course, vinyl has now started to become popular again, so even the younger generation are starting to turn their backs on the digital formats, it would seem.

    Reverting to your comments on music theory, I can't pretend to be fully educated in that area, but certainly was studying theory up until mid teens, thence turning to choral singing, and have a strong background in sight reading to a high standard. I have no doubt that my wide experience of choral singing at a high level and exposure to many different types of choral music has been a benefit in my appreciation of my other musical exploits. Now if  I could only play what I hear in my head on the Maccann ... LOL

  10. Thanks for all of that ... I was going on information which I had been fed (and also possession of the CD "Fiolin Min" , with Benny Andersson and Orsa Spelman recording) and am now annoyed with myself for not doing sufficient background research ... LOL. Happy to be corrected on that, of course!

    Edit
    I went away and googled a bit more, and yes, one of the most popular folktunes in Sweden apparently. The Session web page for once does not try to suggest that it is an Irish tune (which must be a first). One contributor six years ago stated the following:

    " The tune is from the playing of Ärtbergs-Kalle (1826–1917) from Ärtberget, which lies south of Äppelbo. "
    How authoritative that is I know not! ?

  11. Re the matter of sharing files online, or digitising cassette tapes ... fine as far as it goes. However, I would still like to see an actual CD - stuff online is OK up to a point, but it's not generally the way that I choose to listen to music personally.

    There are so many issues to be considered with putting stuff online - copyright, individual rights etc etc ... and of course the quality of such. Shouldn't be posting stuff up by people who have passed on, or indeed recordings that are not your own, either, as copyright laws persist for quite a number of years after recordings are made (and vary from one country to another). People already do put stuff online here, and there have been duet recordings from the likes of Dirge (David Gardiner) with his classical recordings in the past, for instance. Is there really any need to create a special Duet page? And if so, why not Anglo, or English as well ? I think that a special page may be carrying things a little too far in a bit of a knee jerk reaction ? ?

    Personally I still wonder if there is scope to arrange some crowdfunding to get a recording issued , but perhaps with a little less in the way of booklet etc etc and such overhead costs (for instance the additional information could be placed on a specific website with link details provided with the CD - something which was suggested to me about the idea of producing a CD on my research topic) . And of course in the years that have passed since the original recordings were submitted other duet players like Hazel Askew, or Matt Quinn have come onto the scene, so scope exists for newer recordings. And I am aware of other duet players such as Rob Neal for instance .

    These are not intended as any specific (or even, indeed, cogent ) thoughts - just musings. ?

  12. 1 hour ago, Alan Day said:

    The list for Duet was as follows with some names not included but not intentionally (senility probably)

     

    Hidetoshi Yamashita Japan (playing a lovely tune from Japan)

    Ralphie Jordon (since been released on Eloise)

    Leslie Heneker

    Silvia Needham

    Iris Bishop

    Gilbert Carriere  France (recordings from his Website)

    Gavin and Julie

    David CornellUSA

    Mike Hibbert

    John Morgan

    Bob Webb

    Tim Laycock

    David Bernert    USA

    Marien Lina Belgium

    Geoff Lakeman

    Robert Dawson Archive

    Harry Litherland Archive

    Pam Bishop

    Jeff Lefferts

    Bill Whaley

    Richard Evans Australia

    Alexander Prince   Archive

    Jon Boden

    Nick Robertshaw  Archive

    Charlotte Oliver

    Plymouth Citadel Concertina Band

    Maurice Harvey Archive

    Nico Langurlot   South Africa Archive CD recordings

     

    If you have any recordings of these artists please let me know .Please do not post any if the artist is alive and has not granted permission.

     

    I suggest a separate topic Duet Recordings . In addition to the above names many excellent players are now available and I know of at least three I shall ask to submit their work.

    Ta Al.

     


    Hmm ... Al, I think you had better get your pen and paper ready to write some lines out for the teacher (private joke)

    Quite a few mis-spellings in that list!

    For Ralphie Jordon, read Ralphie (or rather Ralph) Jordan
    For Silvia Needham, read Sylvia Needham
    Re Gilbert Carriere, sadly I think his website is no longer to be found (I seem to remember listening to some of those online quite a few years ago, then looking for them, and finding them gone! ? )
    Gavin and Julie are Gavin and Julie Atkin
    For Mike Hibbert - read Mike Hebbert

    As for the rest, for all I know they are OK ?  ?

  13. Further to my earlier post of a video of Michael Hebbert playing in the churchyard in Limehouse in London, herewith another video of him with his duo partner Christine Dyer (duo name is Limehouse Cut) playing various Scandinavian tunes on Jeffries Duet and nyckelharpa, inside the church this time. (Just out of interest the first tune played is that has been recorded by Benny Andersson and Orsa Spelman in the past)

     

    • Like 3
  14. Have spoken to Al, who has lost his password on Cnet apparently. To precis what he said, he had spent two years "putting Duet International together, sent all the recordings to Graham, and that is where they stayed." ... Any requests to re record were not his decision but Graham's on the whole. The actual matter of recording would involve a heavy outlay, and Amazon would take a cut of sales. I get the impression from what he has said that the opinion may have been that the Duet International recording costs would not be covered by sales, which was the main reason for things not going ahead. I personally am still very disappointed by this, as I know there were some interesting recordings in there ... I suppose we can still hope but after all this time ......

    Al has said that when he retrieves access to the members' part of the site he will respond,

     

  15. Oh dear - poor Al has been tearing his hair out about this project for several years now, having put in a lot of legwork and wheedled out a large number of (to me) exciting recordings which were submitted to Graham. To the best of my knowledge when I last spoke to him about it he had had no postive contact from Graham at all. Ralphie Jordan submitted four recordings, but in the end released his own solo CD rather than wait. Those four were in fact on his CD "Eloise", but are not the recordings that he submitted as he worked further on them afterwards. I think I've given up hope of hearing them all .. would be particularly interested in hearing people like Maurice Harvey etc. Dee, if you check out the International Concertina Association website you will find that there are some duet recordings on the Sound pages ... Jean Megly is well worth a listen ... link is at http://www.concertina.org/sound-archive/son-of-readers-tapes/

    Do check out some of the other recordings on there, as you will find other duet players amongst the various performers listed.

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