tombilly

Well, to go back to LDT's question .. whilst I understand why you are trying to learn in this way - it's a very slow and tortuous approach. You seem to be trying to read the notes off a page, 'now which button is a B? and which way do I move the bellows?' Trying to do this for a sequence of music and keep the rhythm as a beginner is just hard. It seems logical to the adult brain - cause and effect. The manuscript says play a G, this button plays a G - but that won't give you music. Music is like speech and language - as a child, imagine being given a book at 2 years of age and told to read it, when you could yet barely make the correct sounds. It's that crazy. You probably didn't learn how to read and write with any fluency till about 12 but this is how many adults approach learning music. I'd repeat the advice to get a teacher. Also get a 'simpler' instrument - whistle or recorder or even your own singing voice. Learn the melody on those so that you know what it should sound like, play tunes and songs you know. Then pick up your concertina and aim to get the tune out. Try not to think too much about which button you're pressing - concentrate on the sound and rhythm. You might think about what you are going to say before you open your mouth but you don't have think about what muscles or wind you need to use to actually make the sounds that make up language. Its the same..

Well, isn't it fascinating the odd little useful things you come across here - little nuggets that shine through.....

The whistle??? I could possibly understand him thinking that way about box and banjo but surely the whistle is a very old instrument. I think Fintan Vallely has pictures of Irish bone whistles in his book Timber. Maybe he considered the whistle as too simple an instrument but hardly too modern. There are plenty of accounts of people fashioning simple whistles and flutes from elder bushes, grasses, reeds etc.

I dunno, I think Chris himself was selling Lachenal 'mahogany' ended C/G anglos last year for around £800 and 'rosewood' ones for around £1500

Now, that's what's called a 'teaser', I think Peter!!

I don't think people here are particularly grumpy. But I think it is sort of usually expected on a forum like this, as far as I can see (that enough qualifiers?) that if one is going to contribute regularly, then one should generally know what one is talking about. It is a concertina forum after all, not an agony aunt column!! Maybe that's helpful in explaining apparent grumpiness and no, I'm not over 50.

that could be an unsurmountable hurdle..

Well, if it's Irish trad. you like ... you'd do a lot worse than come over to the Willie Clancy week in Miltown Malbay, Co.Clare, usually first week in July. Lots of concerntina classes for all grades for a full week and music coming from everywhere in between. And when you've had enough, you can go for a dip in the ocean.

Why Twinkle or Barney or Mary Had a Little Lamb or Hot Cross Buns etc??? Because everyone knows them from childhood - that's the point of ear learning where the notes are. I have a 5 yr old at the moment and he is getting to manage the above on his wee G whistle. But about the whole playing along the rows or cross row thing. In relation to Irish trad., the concertina is very much associated with Clare music. And they like(d) to play on 'odd' keys like C and F -presumably because if you take tunes in ITM that would normally be played in G or D etc. and play them just along the C row, you end up in those sort of keys. Does not Chris Droney play largely along the rows? So maybe that's the way that the concertina was 'traditionally' played in Ireland. Playing along the rows is 'not wrong'. The 'modern' cross row style surely came about as concertina players wanted to play in the the more common session keys that these tunes were being played in. And Noel Hill led the way largely there I think. I also think there are different approaches to Noel's 'method'.

Well, LDT you obviously believe in calling a spade a spade!! And you probably are hopeless and stupid in that you don't seem to have much patience!! You need to walk before you can run, so just practice walking for the moment. As suggested above, you can learn by ear .. after all you learnt how to talk and I'll bet you can hum or sing along various well known melodies that have stuck in your head. If you find yourself humming TV advert jingles etc., then you can learn by ear. So just play those bits of melody on the instrument - of course, you'll know if you hit a bum note - don't be so ridiculous. It'll sound 'wrong', so just try a few buttons to get the 'right' sound. That's learning to walk. After that, you need to learn a repetoire of tunes whether in English or Irish style. Listen to them, get them stuck in your head like the TV jingle and go from there. Report back next year ..........

Do people 'construct' scales for different keys - work out which buttons to use, based on key?? I guess it sounds like a good idea in theory but in practice do we not play in phrases - you figure out how to play a partic. phrase comfortably and when that phrase pops up in another tune, you follow without thinking. Is this not why as your store of tunes increases, that things get easier? In other words, learn & practice by playing & learning tunes.

This argument went backwards and forwards on the C&F flute forum a while back - some people think you can expect to buy instruments, try them for a while and sell them on at the same price, if not a profit. OK in a rising market with short supply. Others argued that there should be always be depreciation on new instruments and that this reflected the opportunity to own and play the instrument. If you wanted to avoid this expense, then seek out friends to try theirs or go to festivals etc. Either way, it costs money. Consensus was that different rules apply to the vintage market.

Sorry to digress slightly off topic but since you raised it, I would say in my case, I start my foot movement downwards on the beat - it's the start of the movement thats hits the beat, not when it hits the ground. But apart from that, I don't follow your point above re players in a session. If a person is playing solo - it doesn't matter where their foot is on the beat as long as they are regular and consistent. If you look at a group of people playing well together, they will be listening to each other and playing in unison, but their foot tapping may be out of sync. - some may be a little ahead or behind or double tapping in a reel etc. - no matter as long as each is regular and they listen to the others to keep together. I have oftimes amused myself watching accomplished musicians and seeing if my foot tap matched theirs. I might think it was a little ahead or behind but as soon as I forget about it and let the brain take over, it feels right anyway. Have you ever been in a large hall like the Willie Clancy with perhaps several hundred people tapping their feet - it's takes on a life of it's own - a background throb rooted in the community gathered and it's not exactly even.

Surely 'lift' is just another term for 'life'. Dance music without lift is flat, even and boring. Add lift or life or emphasis to get the real deal..?

£300 cheaper this one to Chris - £4400. Though I see someone was 'outdone' by £100 near the end!!

£3250 already and several hours to go! Very little info. Perplexing. I suppose the seller has a good rating and you'd be fairly sure the thing would turn up but as to key or condition inside, wouldn't you be guessing? Well, having read the other thread on recent sales of Jeffries ... bid on .. doesn't matter a damn it seems ... could be a snip at £6K! Better start searching the junk shops!!

Lol -- while not a perfect analogy, that's like saying: to reach the moon, you pretty much point a rocket toward space. There may be basically one finger per note, but there are infinite notes on a fretless instrument, and countless ways to affect that note. Generally speaking, with fiddle it takes long study to reliably produce a given note, but with concertina one presses the appropriate button to produce that note, each time. I'm sure David or Cocus can speak for himself on this but I think you are misrepresenting his point. Which was simply ... that fingering a tune is intuitively easier on the fiddle - it is easier to associate a particular finger movement with a note of a given pitch. This is essential to make good music and partic. to play by ear and adapt on the fly to what others are playing. Ditto for same reason on whistle and flute. Whereas obviously on concertina (anglo, anyway) different finger movements are required for the same note. Different sequences of buttons are available to make the same phrase - this variability is more difficult to hardwire in the brain. I agree about the mechanical nature of the concertina and the ease of producing a note of a given pitch. The 'simplest' instruments like fiddle and flute are harder in terms of good tone and pitch.

Nice piece of writing Boney, though 'dogs and bones' come to mind with M8383 ..

michealconnaughtmansrambles.mp3 here it is, a bit rough & ready as it was recorded at a talk. edited to add: this take a bit of doing!! As far as I can see, Micheal is initially playing the melody in both octaves but switching from high to low as required. This is tricky enough but he then goes on to throw the whole shop at it, playing in ocatves but with chords and triplets thrown in. Total control...

Yes Skins, I have the Nervous Man recording and it will probably repay more listening to. But I still think Micheal is at the Joe Burke end of things if you know what I mean. It's an acquired taste!! There's a lot in there. But more isn't always better. I think I have a recording of Micheal double noting entire Connaughtmans Rambles or some jig like that (by way of demo) - must dig it out and see if I can post it here.

I can only add that our daughter was playing in good style as an 8yr old on the whistle ... until her music teacher at school got hold of her and got her playing recorder. She now habitually tongues notes on the whistle and it's not great is all I can say.

Not sure if that is a good analogy. Try playing ITM and 'tongueing' constantly like a classical player on whistle and flute. It's just awful .. far too much definition. Slurring is important in Irish music and widely employed but what is also equally important is definition of partic. notes. It's the use of both together that creates the idiom. Reversing the bellows, cutting or tapping the note, change in volume etc. all lift notes.

Oh, I agree with you Mark, of course. The most important thing at the end of the day is playing a bit of music not what instrument you choose to play it on.

'Handling charges' are common enough in regular commerce in relation to payments by credit card/ laser, partic. mail order. It's a bit of a grey area, as generally the merchant (retailer) agrees (with the credit card companies) to charge the same price irrespective of whether the customer wants to pay by cash or plastic. This is important from the credit card peoples view as they don't want to be disadvantaged. However it costs the merchant to take payments by plastic so you'll often see a 'handling charge' added to compensate. It's also why if you are buying directly from a store, you might ask if it would be cheaper to pay by cash. 'Illegal', as per above but attractive to the retailer! As far as I can see, the credit card companies and the public seem to accept the idea of 'handling fees' these days. It's a myth BTW, that banks and credit card companies make most of their money from people not settling their bills in time - they only make on a proportion of these, as prudent people pay in time and others have to be written off. However they score every time at the merchant end of things - a fixed percentage of each sale plus terminal costs etc.