Michael Marino
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Posts posted by Michael Marino
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Similar but not the same Theo, the one you are referring to is this: f=[kn/2pi][sqrt(EI/wL^4)] (ref: Formulas for Stress and Strain, 5th edition by Raymond J. Roark and Warren C. Young) or can be expressed as f=1/2pi times the square root of the fractional equation of 8EI/pAl^4. Where the following is used:
f = frequency
E = Young's modulus for the material
I = moment of inertia which is dependent on cross section
p = Density of material
A = Cross section of the material
L = Length of the beam (I assume that refers to free end, though I could be wrong and it accounts for total beam length)
This Formula does differ from the one given on the referred web site.
Thanks for the input.
Michael
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The theory on materials does not deal directly with the concertina bur another free reed instrument which is the harmonica. The latest research which object and subject components to it, seems to say yes it does affect the sound you get, but few if any are able to notice this difference. The Equipment picked up and documented the difference but those listening did not hear any difference. It is a start and needs more research and a bit of refining in the way the study was done. It is a start.
With Concertinas it would be interesting to see in a balanced and studied fashion what the differences in design and material do to an instruments voice. We know that the reed and the chambers involved are coupled in the production of the frequencies we get out of an instrument. It is also know that many different parts play an effect upon the final sound. It would be interesting to document as best as possible these differences and their effects. Though I don't see the ASA or the ICA being able to afford to support that level of research. That is no disrespect on either group they have done and continue to do a lot in the field and research.
Michael
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First,
Chris my unreserved apologies, currently in the concertina world there are not these formulas. There these formulas in the Accordion world though and currently figuring the math as both my wife and an Italian friend pointed out that I should be able to reverse engineer the math from the reeds in my possession.
David and Larry,
The Formula for parallel edged free reeds can be reached at http://talkingreeds.com/reed-construction/
The "K" part refers to the 1/3 of the tip of the moving section of the reed which is not the overall reed though you take that into account in the ratio. I am still working on getting it right all the time (don't always remember to do the functions of the equation in the right order, you sure this isn't alchemy
)What I am looking for will start with the basis that is used in accordion reeds, which is based on a trapezoidal shape structure rather than a parallelogram. At least now I have physical model to wrap my head around.
Special thanks to Dana for pointing that the math is possible just not yet done.
Michael
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Chris,
I hate to disagree but there is math for it. There is formula for parallel edged reeds and their frequency before shaping (which has a funky ratio for including the tip mass versus total mass). There is known Math in the size and shape of reed chambers. There is theory being kicked about for the materials which the chambers are made of. Even though I speak Italian fluently, getting them to giv up th math they use for accordion reeds is no go over a phone. Need to go down there and arrange to meet some folks in the near future.
I was just hoping Dana, Wim', or someone with their experience might know a formula that works for the amount of reduction in the width from tip to base does to the end frequency. I all ready know that on a reed of 14mm L x 2mm W with a root thickness of .6 to .7 mm and a tip thickness of approx' .5mm; reducing the tip by .25 mm uniformly raises the given frequency by approx' 1 to 1.25 tones. What I am trying to find is the math to further test without doing a lot of blind testing. Cutting custom reed plates and shaping the reeds takes a good bit of time. It is also very difficult to control imperfection I might put into the testing which can really drive you nuts.
So again anyone who has experience and might know the formula please. I am not interested in building traditional concertinas (even with the opening of the oriental market to concertinas, not enough time in the day). I might at some time be willing to cut shoes for folks but that would be about it.
Michael
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This question is directed at those who make traditional instruments. I need to find the equation for the shape of reeds in a concertina. Most importantly for the curve/taper that is found in the edges of concertina reeds. I am not currently interested in making traditional instruments though I have the ability to cut shoes now. What my interest is the formula; as I am doing some work on another member of the free reed family (harmonicas) and wish to further the testing I am doing with tapered reeds in harmonicas. As this allows for a longer reed for a given note and in the upper end of the register would make a reed that was much easier to sound.
I thank all for any help in this and hope everyone is having a great year.
Michael
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Chris is spot on. Best thing to do is get a thin shim (.05mm or thinner) and go between the reed and the shoe to see if that is you problem. If that clears it up your good to go. Nice side effect of doing this is you tend to remove any micro burs on the edge of the shoe and/or reed while doing this. Hope it helps.
Michael
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Depending on what you need in screw diameter and insert Wim, David, or myself should have them. Contact one of us and you should be able to find what you need.
Michael
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Hello folks been busy,
Does anyone have formulas or set measurements for reed profiles for concertina reeds in Brass, Bronze, or Steel. I am not currently looking at making them (might in the future once I can properly map some shoes, unfortunately Richard died before he could get me that information). I am interested in the information for another free reed family member that I work on which is the chromatic harmonica and some of the strange members of the family (I own a Harmonetta and make gaskets for them and hopefully will be making the metal valves for them soon).
The information is trying to put together a better understanding the properties and how different metals behave and what angle/curves are best to produce as clean a note as possible.
Thanks for any and all information
Michael
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When polishing metal I tend to clean first (ultrasound, yes I know not everyone has one)and than use Maas which I find to work better than Brasso and does less damage to the plating. On large items that I can not ultrasound clean I will use warm to hot water, fairy or Old lye soap and a soft brush to make sure I get all the loose bit that might be hiding in the edges off. I will than follow up with Maas.
Hope this helps.
Michael
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Do you mean within the US or local to you? As I have family in the US you could ship to if it is still for sale. Only would be interested in how you would want payment?
Michael
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Price lowered to $375
Are you willing to ship outside the US?
Michael
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Playing in public Anglo three years plus a bit. Mostly hymnal and Jazz. working and working on getting better at the basics. Practicing scales, arpeggios, runs and key option on the Anglo has helped on other instruments I play and the inverse as well. I figure keep going and we will see. I don't set time lines just practice time and as I get feeling comfortable crank up the complexity another notch till I have think twice and work that out. It is a strange system i know but it keeps me looking and learning.
Michael
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Question on cutting; I currently cut across the leather and than use the scharf-fix to get the thickness down. What I am wondering is the possibility of doing a spiral with the leather at a specific width would actually save more leather? Or am I looking for trouble I don't need?
Michael
Edited for spelling
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Here is a few pictures of a face plate I am cutting for practice. This is coming along well but want to get a set of magnifying lens (Binocular) to allow a bit more precision. Comments please. Also a big hand of thanks to Bob for the pic's I used to make my template. Any comments welcome.
Michael
Good-looking stuff indeed, Michael!
I am looking for binocular magifying lenses myself (for daily wear ;-) ). Are you happy with the Proxxon?
/Henrik
Yes once I got use to it's set up it cut very nicely. Could use a work holding guide and the air nozzle needed to have a paper gasket put around the shaft so it would stay in place but other than that it cuts nice the quick tensioner workers well and the slow start is very nice for starting to cut. the air coupler works well with Record Power standard nozzles so, yeah I am happy with it.
Thanks for the compliment on the cutting and still working on getting the milling to be just the way I want it but hey; when shooting for quality it takes time to get the protocols just right.
Michael
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Here is a few pictures of a face plate I am cutting for practice. This is coming along well but want to get a set of magnifying lens (Binocular) to allow a bit more precision. Comments please. Also a big hand of thanks to Bob for the pic's I used to make my template. Any comments welcome.
Michael
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Okay I wen t to Mudcat and read the thread. While some what informative (a much as listening to a missionary who won't accept discussion). I find his points to be a repeat again and again. While parts of it I agree with many I don't. Now some might ask why I have the right to disagree with an "expert" in the field of ergonomics. Well let's see a Doctorate in Chiropractic from one the the highest ranked schools in the field. Over eight years in practice heavily dealing with upper extremity injury and rehab. Plus all but exam for my specialization in sports sciences that is recognized at the IOC level for being able to practice. That and dealing with athletes and musicians from the amateur to the full on professional.
While some of his statements are extremely valid and i will defend them myself some of his other statements are left field material. the hand works as a kinetic whole and while we can isolate which muscle group we will use for a function we can not isolate the tension and dynamic balancing that will happen within the hand and fore arm/ elbow to maintain stability with that action. It has been shown again and again in running that a ridge shoe damages the foot of the runner. This is why modern competition running shoes are extremely flexible.
In Rock climbing taping between the joints is done only to re-enforce an area that is showing weakness and only when there is no other option as it creates a stress point that will tend to allow failure of the surrounding structure.
With playing the speed with one must move the hand to bridge different notes and chords makes any restricting rigidity a cause certain for further damage to the structures of the hand wrist and fore arm.
I wish him the best of luck and parts of his foundation are extremely sound. Parts on the other hand need some serious re-thinking. Which from the way he write I unfortunately doubt will happen.
Michael
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While in the stages of finishing a new set of bellows for a Lachnel 20 button, there is just something comforting when doing part of the testing to hear how nice an crisp the notes become and how responsive they are with a new set of lungs attached. It is a joy (even after dealing with boiling water and hide glue). Now have just four more to make over the next two weeks and on to a few other projects. Wish me well as things are going forward with prototyping to meet a production level.
Keep Squeezing,
Michael
PS anyone experimenting with Jazz/Big band and an Anglo or am I just a heretic.
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Pearwood does have some very good acoustical properties and I would think that would be the reason that it has been used as long as it has in musical instruments (Some examples dating into the Middle Ages). The biggest problem is getting pieces of wood as pear wood does no like to grow straight and growing the tree for wood requires a bit different attention than growing the tree for fruit.
I use steam straightened Pear in the comb's of harmonicas I build. I seal the comb with a food grade acrylic to remove the problem of moisture. It does not seem to dull the sound one gets from the instrument that is the important part. I also use Lime wood in the reed pans I am currently working on to get a working hybrid Concertina built to do a production run. Only having fun making sure everything can not only meet my quality level I want but also making sure that what I am doing is reproducible on a small (max 50 instruments/year) schedule. Right now getting the hang of making my own springs and finalizing a few items on reeds as looking at three different producers of reeds to see who makes a reed that will meet what I want in sound as well as a few other requirements.
Hope everyone is having a Christmas season as it ends tomorrow and that you all had a enjoyable New Year celebration.
Michael
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The top of one of the end bolts has sheared off when I accidentally over-tightened it while replacing end. The broken tip is now lodged in the receiving socket ( don't know the actual term for it...). Does anyone have a suggestion on how to fix that? I have an old 20 key lach which I could take the little part from, but maybe there's a way to get the sheared tip out and save the part?
thanks...
Do you have a 1.5 or 2mm drill bit and access to a drill press that can handle that small of a drill bit or a reducing arbor for the drill press? If the answer to those are yes than center and drill into the haft of the broken screw and than there are some different options to get a piece of hardened metal into the hole you drilled and using that to back out the broken screw shaft (haft) and that way you would just need to replace the screw. If you need more info on how to do that let me know and will help you out.
Michael
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Video of stills showing one being dismantled with a harmonetta soundtrack. I hope it got put back together!
Graham
There are none on ebay at present.
Just acquired one from Germany via Ebay and unfortunately the wife has pretty much absconded with it and after only two hours of practice can keep up with most of the music that we play at the church in chords. Now she does have a very strong back ground in music (plays multiple instruments including the English, won't touch the Anglo), but it still boggles me on how fast she can pick up a new instrument and be playing it at a moderate level of skill quickly. I hope to get pictures up shortly and let you know how it plays. So far it is wonderful to have her playing the Harmonetta and I the Anglo; though I could see the need for setting up the Pignose amp for the Harmonetta if we where playing in public as you loose a good bit of it's voice in the Anglo.
Michael
Back to work.
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Hi Everyone
This may have been covered elsewhere, but I can't locate the thread, so can anyone help, please? My Jeffries' anglo bellows (probably original) creak in a "leathery" way as they are extended. Not a problem for playing, but am I courting disaster to just ignore this or should I get some leather conditioning cream or something? If so, what's best and how should I apply it? Any guidance would be most gratefully received as I'd hate to ruin my pride and joy!
Thanks to all in anticipation of your valued advice.
Alan
Apply a good quality (black?)shoe polishing cream. Use a 1/4" or 1/2" artists oil paint brush to work the cream well into the depths of the folds and a smooth soft cloth for the remainder of the leather work. Might do the trick.
Another thought relating to creaky, badly neglected bellows. Has anyone ever tried 'Neatsfoot Compound' ?
I have never felt the necessity to try it on my concertina bellows but gathering dust on a shelf amongst my souvenirs I have a can of Neatsfoot Compound which I must have had for over fifty years. (I was introduced to it by my father who used to refer to it as 'Neatsfoot Oil'). The can reads:-
' VANNER & PREST - NEATSFOOT COMPOUND Made in England by Carr & Day & Martin, Great Dunmow, Essex. A finely blended preservative containing pure neatsfoot oil,developed especially for restoring the natural properties of worn and weathered leather. Well suited for use on leather belting, harnesses and saddlery. Regular application prevents leather becoming dry and brittle. Shake well. Using a cloth or brush, apply the oil sparingly and allow to penetrate'. I have enough left in my can to last me another 50 ( or even 500 ) years ! Might even try it on my face.
Rod
Neatsfoot oil, if the stuff you have is the same I grew up with in the States, is good for leather and does not cause breaking down of the leather over time. MOST SHOE CREAMS DO. This is why modern Military boots DON'T use regular shoe polish. Most of the good creams for motorcycle leathers are also fine but many leather conditioners cause a break down of leather over time and this gets compounded by flexing and bending of the leather. You can see it quite plainly in old military boots as they get stretched and develop wrinkles in them even in sections that are only under stretching load and not the repetitive bending.
I have a couple of sets of motorcycle leathers that are over 20 years old and still in fully serviceable condition that I used either a Hien Gerick cream on them or Neatsfoot oil or a bit of both depending which was at hand. They all show no stretching and still fit wonderfully well (though the liner on one is starting to show it age). Bellows get bent and folded when not at rest and they need a treatment that will maintain their flexibility while not causing them to loose structural strength.
Hope this helps. With Neatsfoot oil a little goes a very long way. Very lightly coat and let set on a cloth over night before polishing in/ off any residue from the application. Wonderful stuff.
Michael
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I have been busy putting lessons learned from Rich and other mentors to the purpose of producing some of these wonderful instruments. Richard offered knowledge and plans for the asking of tools. I wrote and talked with him of milling concertina reeds for him on the CNC if I could get the code right.
Right now I cry and I am not ashamed. I have lost a teacher and someone who could have been a friend (did not know him long enough or well enough to presume that title). He encouraged and demand that i think things out and work towards understanding more than just the simple mechanics.
To his family and friends, if any read here, I surely hope that he plays for dancers in heaven now. May the gentleness of God comfort your hearts in this time of loss.
Michael
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Depending on a number of different factors Brass can respond faster than steel and the inverse can also be true. When you are talking about the different sound you are dealing with alot of different points in not only what the reed is made of but the entire instrument. Modern brass alloy used in harmonicas is many times superior to the brass that was used in early concertinas and they in some cases have lasted well over 150 years of play and use. The difference in sound is there but alot of that has to with many complex interaction as well as what the reed is made from. I have harmonicas that have stainless steel reeds and it is very hard to tell them from a tuned brass reeded harmonica. Your idea bears merit and would be interesting hear though volume response might be as different as you are hoping for.
Michael
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Avoid grey mill board as it absorb moisture very well from the environment. I use a high cotton rag from a shop here in the UK. What style do you plan on building with? There is single card, which is is side is a single folded piece of card that laid on a frame and than assembled. Than there is single card which is punched or cut out and than you begin the assembly process from there. There is also Bob Tedrow's method which is single card in one direction and a ribbon in the other; works well and can see it on his web site.
Do not use PVA (personal opinion with experience). Even the newer versions of it have some draw backs though I have been testing some of the new stuff for organs and will see. Hide glue is great and messy and requires a space by itself and due to working with heat could be dangerous if you don't deal the risks (no insult meant). Some of the newer high tack fish glues are showing promise in some of the testing doing but don't know their life span.
Unless buying already skived leather that has been done to a feather edge, I strongly suggest getting the scarfix 2000 as it is a wonderful tool that makes work very easy and quick and is very easy to learn and set up. If doing it by hand get a nice large piece of granite with one edge rounded and polished (1/2" to 1" should for the bevel).
If you want to chat about it let me know as in the UK also.
Michael
Lachenal 48 button just given to me, value?
in Concertina History
Posted · Edited by Michael Marino
I have to agree with Simon,
First, try it out and see if the love of music has been passed down in the blood. No one is born a musician, some have a greater gift for it than others but not born with an instrument already for them (except maybe vocal). Try it out, find one of us Tech's that are near by and have us take a serious look at it for you and see what needs done to bring it to top shape. That way you have both the knowledge of whether you want to learn it from the enjoyment of playing and hearing (and talking to other players and having your world opened and changed a good bit). With the option being there that you have had a Tech look it over and you have an idea of what it will take to bring it to full playable condition and a better idea of what it is worth.
Now from the pictures it looks to have metal buttons and the higher quality fretwork finish. That in it's self speaks well of the instrument. Only first give it a go try it out, see if you have found something that can give real joy and open doors in the real world of music and dance for fun and joy.
Michael
PS my reasoning for this is biased, I have a restored English student grade the wife is getting a new mechanism for from me and a whole host of other free reed instruments that we own and either have restored or are restoring. I have also restored instruments for clients that on the outside looked like they where beyond repair and only needed a bit of love and care to be put in right proper playing condition. Unfortunately I have also had to tell clients that the instrument that looked so nice on the outside was dead, do to needing over 80% of the reeds replaced and internal joints repaired or replaced.