Hooves

Do the extra notes at the bottom play? What are the actaul note values?

Hi Hooves. Did you see my posting last April 1st, and hte long thread that followed, about dividing the bellows into left and right, with a rigidly supported (clamped between knees, maybe) divider between them? That would allow you to push one side while pulling the other -- give Anglo palyers a shot at DUet playing. Seriously, while trying to break in my new-old-stock Bastari 67-key Hayden Bandoneon, I found myself wishing for a reed-organ style foot-pumped bellows, or even an electric blower, jsut to keep pressure on the reeds, since I seem to have to reverse the bellwos too often and the upper reeds don't speak well on low pressure. I coud feed the air in thru the center frame, then jam the endds against my knees to hold them in place against the steady wind pressure. Back to you half-shruti idea, where the hands squeeze the treble side and the foot pumps the bass. That would work for the oom-pah (boom-chick) style that every aspiring Duetist claims to want to rise above (but we all play it now and then), but might not work as well for true "classic" duet work. Let's see, if I can find an air mattress pump at a garage sale ... Mike K. Yes, I think I do recall your concepts, the "B.A.D" concertina if I remember correctly. I was thinking more of ways to help the base side of a unisonoric duet concertina. Did you ever do any work on it, or pursue the concept? (last I read your contemplating buidlig the halves intoa chair) I had suggested you simply strap each half to a seperate leg, that way you would not need the rigid support as your body would provide it (of course, you migth feel a bit foolish with two concertina bellows strapped to your legs!). There was a thread about Shruti boxes and it seems like should be able to make at least 1 half shrutified, but then again I think most of us are tryign to break away from the drone. But a chorded drone, might not be so bad, as you said like a pump organ. Really the problem I wanted to adress was that bass end, any chords and you just draw the life out of the other side. I have a junky chinese english I would be willing to sacrafice for the sake of science. I will try to get a hold of a Uillean pipe bellows or similiar and see what sort of monstrosity I can come up with. Thanks for your comments and reminder of the B.A.D.

Ok, so lets pretend we have a Duet style box: Imagine a second bellows, that could be placed under arm or foot, that could be pumped to add additional air to the concertina. I can see a couple variations: 1) Half Shruti - Ok, in this arrangement the concertina halves are seperated: the tina bellows only pumps air to the treble side of a duet, the bass side is fed via an auxiallary pump and is seperate pneumatically from the treble side. The treble side bellows is the entire concertina bellows (the bass side is sealed off internally). This would allow you to play treble notes as standard, but now you never have to worry about the bass side stealign air. the compromise is you need to pump the other side with the other bellows. Add an additional air bag and I think it could allow continous playing. 2) Full Shruti - In this arrangement the concertina bellows doesn't provide air at all to the reeds, rather, the concertina bellows is used as a pump to fill an air bag like on bagpipes which is under the arm, so the air to the box is always fed via the bag. Probaly shouldn't call it "Full - Shruti" I just can't think of a catchy name at the moment. 3) Burst o'air - in this case, a standard box simply has an additional floor pedal or elbow pump to give the box a burst of air upon occaison. You can close the valve to make it play like a standard box. This one I think would be harder to work without damaging the valves, perhaps a release valve would be needed in the event of overpumping. I think the half-shruti would work the best as it gives you the best of both worlds, not sure if the coordination would be there, but alot of people keep rhythm tapping thier feet, so it may work out. Valve issues would have to be addressed. Your thoughts?

If I had to guess, I would think that for the lowest reeds you would want to add weight to the tip to keep them "bright" (and likewise want to remove material from the root for the highest ones) I had read that some reeds have those weights, but I haven't seen any on my boxes, one of which is tuned to concert the other high pitch. Its hard enough for the low reeds to sound at HP, a before and after comaprison would be nice if it could be accomplished.

For an Ebay auction i think your starting bid was a bit much, thats a Jeffries price for a Crabb... No insult intended to the Crabbs, but for that much I could have 3 fully restored Duets. If you really want that much much cash, you should set a reserve price, and then start your bid significantly lower (as in less than 500 lbs if you actaully want soemone to look at it). I myself am not famailir with the goign prcie on Crabb anglos, but regardless of instrument that price would scare off just about any eBayer. Were Concertina players for crying out loud, not millionaires!

Heres a web page with a picture of Henry Crabb (scroll down a bit to see it). He's playing a Crane Duet standing up without any neck strap. Not sure if this qualifies as the "hey day". http://www.scraggy.net/tina/

The only one of those photos in which they actually appear to be playing (or at least simulating playing) is the first, where they're standing in marching formation. With the photo enlarged, the woman second from the viewer's right in the front row does indeed seem to have a strap/string. What's interesting is that it runs from her left shoulder diagonally across her chest to the right end of her instrument, thus supporting only the one end. Yes, I realized only 1 photo shows them standing, I didn't want to just take a photo from the web site and post it, so to give credit to the web page author I included a link to the whole page. If we had additional photos we might get a better idea.

I wonder what those Salvation Army troups did? http://www.concertina.info/tina.faq/images/salv.htm Its hard for me to see in the photos if they have straps on their boxes or not.

Don't know about other countries, but in England a lot of sessions are mixed music and singing. Many singers tend to use the keys that suit their voices best rather than trying to fit in with instruments which are restricted to D, G, A etc. The sessions that I attend regularly, which are the type where people are encouraged to join in with each other's music, have songs in Eb, Db and Ab every single week and it's very useful to have a concertina that plays in these keys, albeit with a bit of finger stretching and quick thinking. Why feel excluded just because I choose not to play a stringed instrument to which a capo can be applied? I've tried English, Anglo, Crane, McCann and chromatic button accordion, but the Hayden system beats them all hands down for enabling me to pick up tunes in most keys in a short space of time. Horses for courses, I suppose. Joy Do you have the Stagi Hayden or do you have another maker? So far I have only seen the Stagi and I believe Wim Wakker just announced a new run of Hayden Duets his shop is building. other than that, what Hayden system boxes are available.

The discussion of MIDI boxes has come up often on these threads, howver I have yet to hear anybody describe what sort of Sound/Synth module they are using with thier MIDI boxes. Obviously, we can make the box sound like anythign from electric grand to whale calls, but is there a recommended or suggested sound module which produces a realistic Concertina sound? I suspect a harmonica type sound would actaully work, but how real would it sound? Perhaps a good project would be to sample some real boxes, at different attack rates for veclocity sensitive MIDI boxes, and make that availble for more realistic box sound.

I saw John Williams, 5 time Irish Concertina Champion, play ata cletic festival. he was restign his bellows on his knee, I believe he does this in his video as well, but I will need to watch it again (no longer have a VHS player). I thought it was strange when I first saw this, as I had read you should hold one end on your leg and let the bellows move freely, I'm no pro, but thats how I do it, I can't help but think resting the bellows over my kneee would damage the bellows in short order. Bellows ain't cheap!

One nice thing about the Crane is the center row will look very famaliar to guitar players, as the first 4 notes are the same as a guitar in standard tuning (EADG...) however the pattern continues in fourths. Now that I have been playing box, my right hand is getting better. In the last few months I have been watching guitar players on YouTube, Michael Hedges is a great example of using both hands on guitar, but as for me coming from a mandolin background before palying guitar, I mostly flatpick, and only finger pick a few songs. Nowdays I play in alot of alternate tunings (DADGAD, Open E, Low C), and in these tunings finger picking makes the instrument jump alive. There are some drawbacks to the Crane system as the pattern begins to deterioate since you can't just keep goign up in fourths without hitting some accidentals, and on the Crane all acidentals are on the outer buttons (for example, C# is to the left of C natural, making it go higher to lower towards the cenetr row, but, once you hit the B, the note to the left is Bb, going lower to the left, and the same holds for the E and A on the left column.) The pattern in the inner rows, C E D for example, this pattern is repeated up the 3 central rows, and it works great for C, but I have not tried to play anything in any other keys than C, D, and F. For other keys, this may prove a bit harder to work out, for example in Db, but mostly I play my tunes in the popular keys of C, D, E, F, G, A (we guitar players are lucky we can shift position easily) I have read that the strength of the Hayden system is that you finger all keys the same way so transposing is a breeze, but I have not had a chance to try it out as I'm focusing my resources on English made boxes (except my Diatonic Button accordion, thats a fine instrument of Italian origin). If I can find one in a few months cheap enough to deal with the quality, then I will give the Hayden system a shot. I got my 48b Crane after scrounging Ebay listings for over 2 years, a really nice Brass reeded 55 key came up several months ago, but I missed that one and it went for a song. Finally, I broke down and bought a restored Lachenal and I'm glad I did. Mine was built possibly around 1910. One last thing, my Crane is slightly bigger than a standard box (its 6.5" across the flats), however I find it easier to hit the buttons on this box than on my standard sized MaCaan since you aren't strecthing as far to the side. With 1 chromatic octave on the left side, and 2 on the right, I think its got a pretty good range and will serve me well.

You had the right idea, just the wrong box. Ok, here is my 2 cents and you may through it in the gutter if you like (as most people here do...). My first box was a chinese 30 button anglo, no successs at all with this box, discouraging at best. my 2nd box was an English chinese junko, equally diifuclt to get my head around, though the anglo I had more success with. My thrid box was a German anglo, ah finally concertina sound, but only 20 buttons, and no tune mastery to speak of. This box was very light, and plays pretty good despite ahvign german wooden action. My fourth box was/is a 46 button MaCaan duet: this is when my concertinma playing turned 180 degrees and I started makign music. I too come from a guitar (and Octave mandolin) background. To me, the Macaan Duet made so much more sense and was so much eaiser for me to get my Guitar-brain around then either the Anglo or the English. My Fifth and Favorite box is a new comer - recently I aquired a 48 Button Crane Duet, paid an arm and a leg for it, but it was worth it. Beutifully restored, in concert pitch, wonderful bellows. I have had my box less than a week and I already am reading music for it (mind you I have studied music for over 20 years). My opinion is the Duets are the best boxes, not neccesarily the macCaan or the Hayden, but I think I have found my niche in the Crane Duet. (however the MaCcaan still holds a place in my heart, and, um , pocketbook...). So, carry on young box player, get that duet and amaze your friends and yourself. It took 3 years to get my Crane, wish I could go back in time and start there!

Although this thread is about the Uillean pipes, I was wondering if anybody had expierence with playing along with Scottish small pipes? I have been thinking about getting a set of small pipes and I have read that Scottish pipes are tuned sharp. I also had a friend (he moved and have lost contact) who did play the Scottish pipes, and I remember him mentioning that Scottish pipe players had migrated to sharper and sharper tunings.

I know alot of concertinas are re-tuned from the older HP "High Pitch" to the lower concert pitch (i.e. A = 440 hz). I was wondering how this has affected the timbre and sounding of the lowest reeds?

hello, I live in california and have for mostbof my life. ive spent agood number of years hitting pawn shops, and 2nd hand stores. In the time I ahev searched these shops, I do not recall ever seeing any concertinas, but I continue looking. In california, you will find upon occasion smaller 2nd hand shops, often with the owners/staff being hispanic. i ahve found my best "find" at these stores (sorry to take advantge of peopel, but what comes around...). I have found that very few people in california even know what a concertina is, and if they think its an anccordion, well then you will likely pick it up for a song. A friend of mine decided he wanted to learn to play mandolin, so I took him to an antique shop. the owner provided us with an older neoploitan style (round back) Mandolin, witht he caveat "well, it has some broken strings...", apparently alot of people think thats a big deal, my friend could ahve got this mandolin for a song because it had "broken Strings", however he choose instead to learn to play bass. That was about 20 years ago, not sure if the owners have wised up. I also got an excellent T-9 toaster (ahem, mad ein 1942 in the U.S.) I bought it for $5 and sold it for close to $100 (I forget the exact selling price). I knew anythign built in the U.S. during WWII must be worth something. Thes etoasters actaully sell for upwards of $200. So, the treasure is there, you just have to not feel to guilty about aquiring it from the ignorant, as by definition the only way to get a killer deal is to take advantage of somebody less knowledagble than yourself.

Hooves, the above suggests that you think there's a difference between Crane and Triumph. Could you please explain what that difference is?I had read somewhere the Triumph system is the Crane system minus the upper 3 notes: apparently the Salvation Army didn't feel the upper notes were neccessary for chordal accompiament. Maybe this was a later change, and not enough to make a distinction in the system name. I'd be interested in learning the source for this apparent misinformation, if you can rediscover it. If such an attitude did exist in the Salvation Army, I would guess that it was early and temporary, rather than later. The only concertinas I've personally seen that were inscribed with the Triumph name were 55-button models. And The Salvation Army Tutor for the Triumph Concertina includes three keyboard diagrams, respectively for 35, 48, and 55 buttons. Nothing about a 45-button model. Also, none of the arrangements in the tutor (nor in their other tutors, for the anglo and the English) restrict themselves to "chordal accompaniment". (As far as I know, chordal accompaniment is a style made popular by jazz bands and folk guitar players, and wasn't used by the Salvation Army. I believe their playing evolved from hymn singing, with its moving harmonies.) My apologies, I read this somewhere and I must have taken it as fact. I looked high and low and could not find the info, so I'm going to say it is incorrect. I don't know where I read it, but its not the type of thing I would invent, though I do kid people around quite a bit. I'm thinkign now I read it on a vendors web page, a few years abck when i first got into concertina, took that little factoid and sealed it away takign for granted soembody else knew more about it than me. i will keep looking, maybe the best thing to do would eb to check the order ledgers if they exist and see if they requested the to row of 3 notes be removed on soem of the boxes. I admittedly extrapolated the 48 to 45, I never read that, but I thought it was common practice enough to desiginate a real difference. But without any supporting info, I woudl say ist just another misinformation factoid I dug up (the interent is great, but you need to consider your sources). So good concertina.net memebers and guests, please disregard the comments about Crane vs. Triumph system. This really isn't the appropriate thread for this, howver I would still be interested if the Zephyr could eb made to bea crane style duet. I have a crane duet with 48 buttons, its great, my favorite box. (I also ahve a MacCaan, my former favorite, which i plan to keep and continue to learn tunes on).

Hooves, the above suggests that you think there's a difference between Crane and Triumph. Could you please explain what that difference is? I had read somewhere the Triumph system is the Crane system minus the upper 3 notes: apparently the Salvation Army didn't feel the upper notes were neccessary for chordal accompiament. Maybe this was a later change, and not enough to make a distinction in the system name. I went to try to find where I read this, and I can't seem to find it, I was sure I read it either here or on the Concertina.com site, but I can no evidence of it. In searching I saw many SA instruments, but it looked they had the standard number of Crane buttons. I will keep lookign for where I picked that up, it may have been info in a PM that I discarded.

Hello Bob, could you make a Crane or Triumph system duet the size of your Zephyr? I'm thinking the 48 (45 if Triumph) button model.

Wheatstone, Lachenal, Jones, Nikolds... Weve heard the name sof the big Shots, the patent holders and company founders. But what about the the other workers who actaully put the inventors dreams in motion? Wheatsone and Lachenal by themselves could not produce the bulk of instruments: other workers were there grinding, cutting, tuning. Lets all pour a tall cold pint, on this Labour Day weekend, and drink a toast to the unknown sculptures who spent thier lives in factories to bring us our beloved boxes.

Well then, carry on. I'm actaully for innovation and evolution. So then, you admit that the Crane system duet layout is a step forward?

People seem to forget we play concertina and other boxes because they are acoustic. The charm of an acoustic instrument will never be replaced. Electronic instruments are great, but for the performer the charm in my opinion is lost. The listener may not be able to tell if it was a synth or sample or whatever, but the performer knows. Have you ever seen a MIDI synth concert? I have. Boring! In this age of power failures, the humble acoustic instrument plays on while the rioters run amuck.

Ah yes, finally you begin to see that flicker of light and realize the errors of your ways... The Duet, so abmonished, so cast asunder by hairy knuckles and scoffs of futility. But whats the real goal? To make a bandoneon something that it is not? rather than find 10 people to convert one box to another, better still find 100 people to group together to order the real thing, an actaul new Crane Duet. That would rally the masses. Even now they wait along the sidelines in silence.

well then Chin Up! Coal never turns into diamonds. SuperMan the movie has plauged us with this urban myth.

So a man walks into a music store, just having had his flat ransacked by unscrupolus burglars, losing his prized fiddle and some other momentos of life. He asks the clerk, "have you got an instrument nobody would ever want to steal?" The clerk smiled, and pulled a large piano accordion off the wall. The man looked it over, and feeling a bit overwhelmed by the pearlesque beast, asked: "Well, do you have anything a thief might might pass over as junk?" The clerk thought for a moment, then reached under the counter and handed him a concertina...