Larryo

Could I suggest that maybe the cry from the heart belongs on another thread?

I don't know this seller from Adam but if he/she has a firm bid of $6,300 and maybe can get more, going on my single experience of selling a concertina a few months ago, I wish them all the best.Some three years ago I paid over the odds for a Suttner which was the norm at the time and in March I decided to sell it for health reasons which were stopping me playing.As it happens I wasn't looking for next or near to $10,000 and the grief !! Some people were genuine, agreed it was worth the money and would pay it if they had it whilst some others decided that I was ripping them and their relatives off with one member here saying indignantly that I should sell it to him for less than I paid for it.I must say that when arguments and debates broke out before about the morals etc of charging high prices for concertinas, I was on the fence but falling off in the direction of thinking it wrong to charge exhorbitantly. I still sort of think a bit like that but only a bit because as I learnt, everyone has their own opinion as to what is exhorbitant and in the end I got a pain in my head and put it away in the wardrobe So just another side to it

Thanks for your kind words Steve.Unfortunately, yes it is due to medical reasons.I have given up the fight to play and at the same time cope with old injuries made worse and aggravated by playing.Not great but sure there you go.I'm above the ground anyway !! Thanks again Larry

I have decided to stop playing and am selling my concertina. It is a Suttner, A2 31 key, Jeffries layout, ebony ended. It is just over three years old, me being the only owner, and is in perfect playing condition. There are a few marks to the lacquer on the inside of the F#/D and G/A buttons on the left side where my fingers were slipping off the buttons and catching the timber but this obviously doesn't interfere with the playing. If interested,please make an offer via pm.Thanks

I'd probably do a triplet or something on that note on the fiddle, (sometimes anyway, varying it in and out,) but when it comes to triplets or rolls on the fiddle first finger notes (E, B, F#) it might well be either the second or the third for the upper note. At a decent speed, the pitch of the "twiddle note" is hardly crucial. I'd agree that the twiddle note on the fiddle is hardly crucial but I feel that unless a concertina was uber sensitive button wise, you'd be hard pushed( excuse the pun) to make the twiddle note sound unobtrusive and especially where there is a change of bellowsas is the case here.If yea really needed to ornament this part, I'd be more inclined to go with a G to cut the E.

Possibly the reason why it is not done is because it might not sound so well??? I have never heard it being played with a triplet at that part and it certainly doesn't sound good enough to warrant all the effort of trying to put it in !!!!

Hi Gerry, That triplet is definitely surplus to requirements.Just play F#,E,D.

I don't know the deep scientific data on this but I too believe(what from I have read??) that the right brain is involved in the creative and intuitive side of things.It is argued that the right side controls the left hand and the combination of this and it influencing the creative, apparently explains why a lot of artists are left handed?But I am sure that we need to use both sides.

You could try Kate McNamara who has been taught by Mary MacNamara(no relation).Her CD is called "Are You The Concertina Player".She is also on the International Concertina CDs.

Interesting to read David's post on "chopping".The very first lessons I received were from a young lad who would have been taught by Noel.The first tune we did was the Carraroe jig and he advocated chopping from the A to high D.For some reason, my mind rebelled against this and more or less left that tune to one side because I felt that the A on the G row was the way to go.Why I didn't want to do it I don't know, especially if had done it I at least would have been able to play the tune.This was also a hint to me that when playing in the key of D especially D major, that the A on the G row was important.Those classes were interrupted for me when I got ill and the first opportunity I got to get back to tuition was a day workshop.This was given by someone who was an even stronger devotee of Noel and what do you know, only he was all up for chopping.Again the same two notes although in another tune he preferred to use the A on G row?? Later on when I saw some arguments here saying that Noel didn't do it I wondered had I misunderstood those earlier lessons.However this summer, a piper friend of mine who is now trying the concertina, found that this same teacher used the chopping technique when teaching in a summer school, the teachers for which were chosen by Noel.My friend also turned away from that, thinking that it didn't make sense. I myself wouldn't use the chopping move preferring instead to use the A on G row and it was practicing the use of this,which all started with the Carraroe,and other D tunes since, that got me thinking about the whole G row thing as I mentioned before.Glad to know I wasn't imagining that this chopping practice did in some ways come from Noel. By the way David B, did you get my mail?

Well talking of fiddles...when playing the fiddle you have to use all the fingers of whatever hand you are working the fingerboard with and as such I don't understand this thinking of weak fingers versus strong in the context of playing the concertina.Maybe when you begin to play, indeed any instrument, then maybe certain fingers will be less used to being used but surely as you play, all fingers will become more controllable and if we have to get used to using the little finger all the time for the F# surely it makes sense to get used to using the ring finger equally so leaving one able to press all buttons with equal control.As an interesting aside I was talking to a teacher of the Alexander technique about how I had been struggling with the small finger( which I didn't understand because I had used it when playing fiddle and banjo) and she pointed out that it couldn't be an issue of strength but had to be one of control, because if you check how babies grab an adult's finger it is always with their little finger????? food for thought????

On the basis that I am not as well versed in the technical aspects of playing as others, I must say that I am fascinated by the different approaches to playing the concertina and how one person will favour one way over another and why shouldn't they !! David Boveri's comments on the playing of the Merry Blacksmith made things clearer for me on that subject and playing it like he suggests suits me whilst on the other hand I can see no reason in some ways why you wouldn't start it on the right hand D on the understanding that you would have to use the other high D and A on G row at some stage.But the way he suggests suits my thinking.However on the subject of F#GG#A, I think that Jileha might have meant the small finger to be used for the F#( well I hope he did) but in reply to David Levine's point as to why you would play the G on the push, this brings me right back to my original point?? Why not? After all if it's ok to use the A on that button why not the G? And if you are on that row why change out??? Just today I was messin around with Spórt and if I was to follow David Boveri's example for the Merry Blacksmith( and I do realise totally that every tune can be different and he has made it clear that he is not making any definitive statements on how tunes should be played), I would be playing the opening A and high D on the G row which is quite doable and again suits how I hear tunes but I can't help but think that to start it on the C row would make life a lot easier.So that begs the question..what is the criteria for switching rows...ease of playing or sticking to a sound and is ease of playing the same as can't be bothered practicing the harder way????As for that run of F#GG~A..well strange enough I was taught to do it as Jileha suggests- F# on small, G on ring,G# on index and back to ring finger still sitting over the G and that is the way that would suit me..unless of course you were going on to a low D from there...which you could I suppose press with the small finger.When being taught one of Paddy Fahy's jigs ..the jig that starts D G BbB, it was press the D on G row, play G next to it and then on to Bb on index and that makes perfect sense to me and I would trust that teacher (although you could play the G on the accidental row and have the Bb beside you)Having said all that Micheal O'Raghallaigh was heard to say that you should never play the A or G on the accidental row.So who knows.

This is interesting..... does that mean that say in the Merry Blacksmith that Noel would start on the high D on left side and proceed to use the G row for all notes up to E and D in the first half or is it a case of start on that high D, use A on G row and then B on middle and so on?

I have to confess that with regards to playing Irish trad music, I have more or less failed to completely understand the cross the rows description and indeed the whole concept of Noel Hills default system. Yes I do understand that both in the past and in the present, players have favoured a certain way of playing over another, whether to facilitate certain fingering or whether to get a specific sound but even then, certain tunes will require movement to another row even if for just one note. Is playing up and down the rows exclusively only possible on a certain number of tunes or a certain number of tunes played in certain keys and can it only be practiced exclusively if one is prepared to either limit ones repertoire or the keys one plays in? So as soon as one crosses on to another row for whatever reason is it still possible to say that one is still playing up and down the rows or is that a description of a style of playing as in Donegal style of fiddle playing ? Maybe that description is used to describe the sound that one player gets or how it is got? Obvious and most well known (to me) examples that come to mind are Chris Droney and Frank Edgely , but even looking at Franks tutorial you can see where he will advise/suggest using notes on the middle row that are available on the G row, as a way to make the tune sound better/nicer and/or to facilitate ease of playing. Kitty Hayes (R.I.P.) had a certain sound and she preferred to play mostly on the C row/and or in the key of G and C. On the other hand, in the playing of the cross the rows system, if you like to play the big D major tunes, then proficiency on the G row is essential because of the structure of most D major tunes. These tunes a lot of the time will have high D, C#, high D sequence usually, or more often than not, followed by the note of A and maybe then a F# which will require the use of the A on the G row and will sometimes also have a run going from F# through A to high D which likewise will require the ability to use the A on the G row. Then there are certain tunes that require the use of the B on the G row (I am talking left hand here) and if you have to know how to use both of these notes -A and B - easily and at any given time, and seeing you need to use the F# on the G row, sure you might as well become proficient on the G row and learn to use all the notes there at any given time. Other tunes and types of tunes, to my mind, sound much better on the G row although they can possibly be played easier on the across the rows system. Polkas and slides come to mind. Yes they can be played across the rows but to get that lift, the G row in my opinion offers better options. There are also runs in tunes where you end up coming from the C# to a B and where B is the better played on the G row and also where there is an A coming after or shortly after or a run where there is B, C# high D (Silver Spear) where it doesnt make any sense to go back out to the middle row for the A and it is actually easier (if practiced) to go to the A on the G row, thereby playing portions of the tune in a up and down the rows style. If a player decides that he or she likes to play a certain style or predominantly play a certain type of tune then I would agree that one could classify themselves as playing a certain way but if you want to be able to play a large selection of tunes and in a large selection of keys, then surely it is more accurate to say one just simply plays the concertina? Similarly with the so-called Noel Hill default system and I do not mean here to be in contradiction solely with Davids comments above. How can there be a default system in the playing of Irish music?? Yes I understand that Noel invented an efficient and easier way of teaching (especially in a class environment), a system that means everyone in the class is playing the same button and thereby eliminating all the stopping and starting and delays which come from what button should I play here type questions but to my mind as one learns it becomes a bit like a see-saw- one starts with playing a certain group of tunes using certain buttons as default but as the repertoire broadens, then the use of other buttons becomes a necessity and surely then there is no default system and one is almost level or using the different buttons equally. If for example and for argument it was possible to get classes from Noel every day for a month and in that time, again for argument, say it was possible to learn say seven hundred to a thousand tunes. Very quickly and especially if one was learning session tunes in session keys, the it would become clear that the high D for example was to be used as much on the right side and it is on the left. An example would be the Merry Blacksmith reel. This is a commonly played session tune and unless you wanted to specifically play it on the G row, it makes more sense and ease to play in starting on right side. And there are many other tunes where the exclusive use of buttons, which are classified as Noel Hill default system, buttons do not make sense. So why say there is a default system term because if it were possible, again for argument sake to shorten the learning of a thousand tunes to a week of summer school, then by weeks end the use of a term default system would be redundant and erroneous? Yes, when going to a class and learning a hand picked number of tunes in a hand picked number of keys it is possible to say very initially that there is a default system but practically speaking how long can one say that one plays in a default system? Is it more accurate to say that there is Noel Hill default system of teaching? I of course respect everyones right to describe how they play in whatever terms they choose. If Chris Droney says he plays up and down the rows, then I respect his use of those words (that I admire and respect his playing goes without saying) but they dont make sense to me. Similarly if anyone wants to say they use the Noel Hill default system (and again I am not specifically referring to Davids comments) then I respect that but for me I dont believe that there is a Noel Hill default system way of playing. Teaching, yes, but playing…?No.But I could well be out of step here..again !!

I think that David is right of course when he says that it is a matter of choice.Whether that be a choice to buy a concertina rather than something else or indeed the choice whether to pay a certain price for a concertina or not.And equally there is a choice for the seller- what price to charge.If both parties can meet in agreement, then if they are both of age and sound mind, then all is well.Freedom of choice has been exercised.I knew in advance what profit was being made on my concertina when I bought it and it was, shall I say, extremely generous(not to me) but the choice was mine and I paid the money and was, relatively speaking, happy to do so.If I were to sell it on, would I be wrong to make a profit, even a token one? That is one debate.Would the price of my instrument have risen slightly unnnaturally as a result of the combination? Maybe so.And if that scenario is multiplied over in the instance of numerous sale and resale, then it is easy to see how prices rise.But who if anyone is at fault? That is the more interesting question. However there is also the whole issue of dealer or no dealer to paraphrase a well known TV programme title.What constitutes being a dealer or is there different levels of dealership? I think that there is, just as there are different levels of support available when you buy for example a car- main dealer, ordinary car dealerships, back garden dealers and then one person selling to the other.It is interesting to see David call himself a dealer as I have seen him, in the past, on another forum deny this.I also had the very interesting experience of someone here write to me off line berating me for calling him a dealer.I say this because it is clear that if you buy and sell instruments other than the odd occasion to improve your quality of instrument and to play the instrument yourself, then like it or not, you are a dealer.And dealers are in it to make money.End of. And it is slightly annoying to my mind to read people say stuff like "I don't make much"; "I'm selling it for what I paid for it";"I'm not in it for the money" etc etc.This is untrue. David goes on to say that "collectors of today are preserving instruments for the next generation".Well I don't want to inflame anyone either but this is a questionable thing to say.A repairer of instruments might well do this.But a collector does not nor indeed does a dealer, regardless of big or small.A collector collects books whether he reads books, collects motorcycles whether he rides them or not and similarly collects instruments whether he plays them or not.That is what he does(choice again) and maybe it is a by product of this collecting and keeping safe( and unused, unplayed in a lot of cases)that instruments are preserved but let us not say that he/she is preserving by intent.Is the art of collecting a moral and healthy one? Is there a difference between the collector who collects and can afford never to sell? Where does the line between collector and dealer blur? Similarly with a dealer.He/she is buying and selling to make a profit and not to preserve.What the profit level is and whether or not it is moral is another day's discussion.But I certainly won't be going out of my way to thank any collector or dealer and depending on the profit levels they make, might well take a "pop" at them, although this "pop" is certainly tempered by the knowledge that I have a choice whether to deal with them or not

Hi, I have seen discussions here in the past where people, endeavouring to get access on the web to TG4 and RTE programmes from outside of Ireland, had found a way to fool the system by using some method or another?? I am trying to reverse the trend and gain access to BBC programmes on the web. Can anyone offer any solutions? Thank you

Yes, Stephen, the termite aspect was mentioned as was India.I think the seller is genuine and that the instrument is one of those passed down through families and not recently played.However when I get photos I will be back.Is there a serial number issue with Jeffries?

Hi, I have been asked about a concertina by a friend who has a chance to buy and seeing I know very little about older concertinas, I thought I would ask the people here.My friend has described as "It has C Jefferies maker stamped on the wood on the top right hand side. It is C/G, 31 Bone buttons, there is a LOW C button on the top left hand side - almost corresponding with air button on right hand side. Its wooden ends, kinda winey/ reddish wood" I am also told that it comes comes apparently with a tin case, apparently like a milk churn?I have asked for photos and they are being forwarded, but in the meantime, can anyone shed any light on this instrument? Thank you

Just in case there is confusioin, Joan Hanrahan is standing for the normal presenter and the programme name is Thar Droichead Sall

For those who can get Clare FM on the radio or net, Joan Hanrahan will be playing tracks from this CD at 8pm Irish time.This programme can then be downloaded in a few days if you miss it.

It's called the Daisy Field, presumably after the tune of the same name.A handful of them were only left in on Tuesday, so it is possible that it is not yet up on the site.The official launch is here http://www.tullatradfestival.com/

For those that might be interested, Claire Keville's new CD is now available in Custys, Ennis

Hi Miz, I would have advised that the Hohner from what I can see, only has twenty buttons which would mean that you would be restricted in what you could play and would possibly have to buy another concertina fairly soon if you started to make progress. With concertinas it ia always better to buy the best that you can afford and if you need to buy now then the Rochelle is a good place to start.I was also going to remind you that you would have to pay shipping costs and import tax and vat if you bought a Rochelle in US so now you can get the bus down to Clare and Stephen will look after you.You will be inside your budget and if you get it soon, you can get yourself enrolled in concertina classes in Comhaltas for this coming term. How good is that !!

http://www.waltons.ie/Product/Search.aspx?cid=29- this is a shop in Dublin and this- http://www.allaboutaccordions.com/concertina.htm is a dealer of accordions and concertinas in Dublin.If you could go to 700 you might get a better one than for 500 ?

Thanks Chris