d.elliott
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Posts posted by d.elliott
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11 hours ago, Theo said:
If you are checking the pitch with an electronic tuner you need to use one that is able to measure the pitch with an accuracy of less than 1 cent. A needle type display or a simulation of it is not precise enough and the type the show green/red to indicate in tune or not typically have a tolerance of +/- 3 to 5 cents as Lukasz has mentioned. So if you have two reeds of the same pitch measured within
+/- 3 cents then one could be 3 cents sharp the other could be 3 cents flat so they differ by 6 cents. This will produce a very strong beat easily audible by anyone.
Some years ago we had a healthy debate about tuning tolerances, this based upon audiology data, and various other factors, I (we?) settled on +/- 1.5 cents from nominal, and the use of a meter that could discriminate to no courser than 0.05 of a cent. Some repairers did not want to engage in the discussion, some players active on the forum at the time took the view that ascribing tolerances was just lazy craftsmanship, one chap demanded nothing better than absolute perfection. The reality is that there is no such thing as perfection. we knew what the trained ear could discriminate, and what would cause a clash to that ear if two instruments tuned at different ends of the tolerance band were played in juxtaposition. Experience repairers know what level of repeatability is sensibly attainable in the tuning process.
Theo's point is exactly right if you are counting to portions of a cent, you need a read out that is more precise than that portion. If you want to be able to trust that reading then the instrument must be able to discriminate (if not read out) to around 0.2 times the read increments, of finer.
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On 12/22/2022 at 6:17 PM, DerekL said:
Hi Dowright and Sfephen,,
You may already have this information, as I shared it with Doug Creighton at the Button Box decades ago, but here is a datum point for a Lachenal Edeophone built in 1928
My Aunt (Bessie Lane) in the UK, purchased what is now my Lachenal Edeophone, serial number 60013, new from Lachenal for £15/10/- on July 6th, 1928.
Here is an edited OCR file of the receipt:
Telegraphic Address: Telephone -- MUSEUM 6322.
"LACHENAL. LONDON."
4 & 6, LITTLE JAMES’ STREET,
GRAY'S INN ROAD, LONDON, W.C.l (near the Holborn Hall).6th July, 1928
Miss Bessie LaneTo LACHENAL & CO.
Patent Concertina Manufacturers60013 48k Edeophone. £ 15 / 10.
No. 271 6.7.1928
Received, with thanks, the sum of
Fifteen pounds, ten shillings - penceFor Lachenal ..... (signature on two one-penny stamps showing head of George V.)
Cash £15.10.0
Cheers, Derek
This is interesting, if you look at a curve of serial numbers against dates you can see the production rates climbing with a steepening gradient from around 1906, and the production rate is increasing at almost an exponential rate up to 1928. I would have expected that the curve would have been flattening, and even declining at this point in time. It seems quite counter intuitive.
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What is as, if not more important is consistent spacing, and orientation relative the holding furniture.
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Best part about retirement is lying in bed listening to other people scrape the ice off their cars in an effort to get to work on time!
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Often the key's guide pin has snapped off, or if the key is riding higher than the others, the pivot post may have worked loose.
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It's a bit of a bugger to empty the dirt from the bellows though.
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West Country Concertina players run two residential weekends, one for beginner/ early improvers and one for later improver & the more experienced players.
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The dull ends are usually nickel/ nickel plated, Stainless (originally 'rustless' steel') was not invented until 1913. so I doubt it was available for concertina ends until well after the 1st WW. Chrome plating was leading this by about 10 years. Nickel plating, however, started to appear in the 1850's. Chrome plate is in two forms: Hard Plating for wear surfaces and decorative plate. Chrome is much brighter and shinier than nickel, but it can peel off.
Nickel can give an allergic reaction so don't cuddle your 'tina, unless she is a Tina!
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well done you!
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as per Wally, thumb nail or the tip of a screwdriver (but not too hard)
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Reed plate (frame) is loose in it's location.
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Your 1st picture shows the casing veneer a bit lifted, not likely to be any issue in this problem. The second picture shows a compress edge gasket which could benefit from fluffing up a bit. Taking the point of screws digging into the action box casing, you can test this by making some little card washers and see if the increased 'nip' helps. If it does, then get some appropriate brass washers of the internet. Probably 10BA small.
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I suspect that Marien has misunderstood your question. You have identified a leak site between the bellows frame and the underside of the pad board. There are two initial actions to take: firstly, rough up the nap of the chamois leather gasket and secondly, check the underside of the padboard for damage, shrinkage away from the surrounding action box frame or general unevenness. If there is damage, shrinkage etc you need to do whatever is appropriate to block any air paths. I is usually glue failure around the pad board, if it is not the condition of the bellows frame gasket.
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Some platers will 'paint' over the area of concern to protect it from the re-plate process, but you can get all sorts of undesirable effects, Plating shops are usually dark and filth places with the tanks bubbling away and extract systems banging away, but facinating to see what they platers achieve.
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I personally don't advise too much cosmetic work because it is so easy to end up with a bigger problem than you started off with. Cleaning and smartening up is fine, but why try to do more, given the inherent risks?
Re- plating can end up with a nice, polished finish, but you can get pores in the plate from ingrained contamination in the fine corners of the fretting, it also tends to fill up etched numbers and manufacturer's details. No matter how carefully 'pickled' the metal work is to remove the old plate and the contamination before replacing the electroplate.
Wood re-finishing local repairs are always a nightmare, fully re-finishing you can lose detail, end up with polish reactions and then have to re- ream all the key holes.
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It depends on the player's intentions, most instruments are re-set/ tuned to the modern concert pitch, this so they can be played in concert with other players. Some players prefer to keep their concertina in it's original tuning because they play solo, or for their own amusement. Old pitch to new is an adjustment of half a semi tone (just under), whilst there is risk, in most cases it is minimal if done carefully
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Martin, what happens to the reeds? I do not have the instrumentation to confirm this, but I have tuned probably several thousand reeds, and then played them prior to return to their owner. At rest the reed tongue has it's gap and shape, the reed is stable and held in that state by internal stresses within the metal of the reed tongue itself. There is a well-known and understood phenomenon called 'vibration stress relief'. When a bit of metal is flexed at a frequency (like a reed tongue) the Christal structure within the metal settles and stresses re-align themselves and can be reduced. This will cause the reed tongue to deflect and change it's bent shape. Potentially this change may have a minuscule effect on pitch but can have more of an effect on responsiveness due to reed set. In my experience the result is usually for the better, or so I have always thought of it as some form of self-aligning process.
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No Bill, but a single action Anglo would be quieter! 🦻
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Playing the instrument with the across the knee significantly shortens the life of the bellows. I am told that Rob Knows this but is prepared to take the hit. Afterall bellows are a consumable item. Personnally I, being right-handed, rest the left-hand bellows frame on my left leg, I then rest my right forearm on my right leg so that some of the weight is taken off the thumbs/ little fingers. The left end is anchored, the right end is moved with maximum bellow control. both hands can manoeuvre around the keyboards finding all those bum notes with equal dexterity. Left-handed people simply reverse this, or face the other way?
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I Think that the pump action reeds could work as surface mounted, but they would be heavy and the instrument would be best as a single action. What sort of chamber dimensions would these reeds relate to?
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Your thin wooden block is a bushing board. if the board is not bushed then it is still supporting the keys and preventing fouling in the metal end plate.
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You commented that the ghost note sounds when pushing the bellows closed with some force? set aside the air release for the moment, this sounds like a weak spring. Use a meter and identify the note. then investigate further and check if there is any proximity to air release chamber.
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got any pictures of the reeds? I am not familiar with american pump organs.
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I am surprised that a new steel reed is cracking, the Wren cannot be so old as to be developing metal fatigue. I suspect that if you are using a pair of tweezers to lever up the reed tongue at the back end of the reed, then that could cause stresses that flatten the reed pitch. If you are filing the reed tip on the top surface of the reed tongue close to the free end of the reed, then that is fine, but if the filed area extends more than say 25% back from the tip then you could be negating some of the good you are doing. Finally, if you are using a steel file and the part of the reed tongue that is under the file is not supported adequately (a shim of 0,25mm or less is adequate) then you will be bending the reed tongue again flattening it's pitch. Steel files need more pressure than diamond files. I use 400 or 600 grit files.
Concertina Juxtapositions
in General Concertina Discussion
Posted
one picture is metal ended.