david_boveri

the term short roll is fine for now, until i redefine it. x "grace note" is a bit ambiguous, i always thought. i would say that both terms would mean "note cut note." (please be aware that a flute is actually something different in flute playing). perhaps call it a cut (only) roll? that could also allow us to have cut and tap (only) "rolls." i can call them short rolls for now, just for simplicity. no, a triplet would not be the same thing as a short roll. a short roll (as you define it) is "note, cut, note." the cut takes up as little time as possible, as it is a grace note. in a triplet, all three notes are of equal length. a long roll is note (cut) note (tap) note, with the base note being the same and an eighth note in length each. a cut is the note above and a cut is the note below. please note that this is just a rule of thumb, and in practice cuts have to be above the note, and taps below, but each instrument might do it differently for acoustical or technical reasons. according to flute/piping terminology, a short roll is a roll without the first "note," i.e. (cut) note (tap) note. hence my objection to calling note (cut) note a short roll. a crann is a piping ornament. it is actually very complicated, and was traditionally only done on low D. this is because on the pipes you play a cut or tap to separate two notes, there is no way to start and stop the sound otherwise. rolls derive from this (their way of doing triplets, perhaps). a crann is the only way you could approximate a roll on the low D. traditionally it was a long D (cut) D (cut) D (cut) D; notice that there are 4 D's rather than 3, which would be in a roll. on the concertina, a crann is very different. many people try to approximate the rhythm, sound or feel of a piping crann, while others do not. the key thing is this: a crann on the concertina is so called because it ONLY includes the notes above the base note, i.e. A (cut d) (cut B ) A; this word was chosen because piping cranns are the closest ornament to a concertina crann. calling it a roll is inaccurate, because rolls include the note above and below. as you can see, the word crann is used on the concertina because it is a generalization of the piping crann's definition: "an ornament in the middle of a note, including only notes above." i am not aware of a meaningful difference between shake and trill. i believe that the difference is based on historical practice. a trill is a rapid alternation between a note and the note above. a shake was the same, but to the note below (i believe). the effect is the same, just where you start. please see here: http://www.oldflutes.com/articles/classicaltrill/index.htm the term "double stop" means to stop two strings on the violin at the same time while simultaneously pressing the bow into both strings to play two notes simultaneously. thus, the use of the word on the concertina is a bit of a stretch (pun intended). in practice, i myself limit the term to when you play one note below a given melody note. for example, low and high D together. once you play two notes together in addition to the melody notes, it would be a chord. i think i tend to use the word chord in both situations, but i'm sure i've said double stop as i described. the word nyah (from the irish neagh) means that lift and feel that characterizes good playing ("swing" in jazz is similar). don't call a double stop or a chord a nyah. that's just misusing the word. the neagh F is when a piper or fiddler slides from F natural into F#, often never reaching all the way into F# (flute players don't tend to use this term, though it is still accurate). if i were to do chords as the regulators do (which happens to be my style), i would just say that i was mimicking the chords on the regs. i think a slap roll is when you hit the side of the instrument instead of doing a roll. you play a note twice on the left side, for example, then between the two you hit the right end plate of your instrument with your fingers. if you time it right it will make it sound like there is a third note. i don't do this. i would have to loosen my straps to make this possible, and then i would lose tone control. i rest my fingers on the ends of the instruments all the time, but couldn't get enough leverage in order to slap so hard without loosening the straps. maybe it's just because of the size of my hands, but i don't really care for the slap rolls enough to change my whole style to fit them in. i could probably come up with a table or better written article if people are intrested. overall, i think i answered the terms from a pretty pipery perspective (to address your second to last question). two terms i would like to add: according triplet. where you use two fingers on the same button in succession, to make a triplet (start finger) (second finger) (start finger). an accordion player can do this with three fingers, but it is not worth the strap looseness to do it with three on the concertina. playing in octaves: where you play a parallel melody line above or below the melody note, but only by going an octave up or down. this is an old style of playing, that micheál ó raghallaigh has brought back to prominence.

What others said, plus this: owning a great Jeffries, it's unlikely you'll find anything else that compares in terms of sound and action. Bite the bullet and get another Jeffries. jb maybe sound, but i won't give you action! seriously...

plenty of ideas! what sort of ornamentation are you working on? i'm big into breaking down ornamentation in different ways using the metronome. after all, the ornamentation is usually the first thing to go out of time! i could probably post more exercises than you'd ever want to do... give me detailed descriptions of the sort of ornamentation you are trying to improve and then i can make you regret you asked,

i would second looking to find an antique if you can. not a lot of people are making more than 30 buttons with short lists. dipper and wheatstone are basically out, if you want to see your concertina any time soon. concertina connection has the A6, which is available in G/D with 40 buttons. suttner has the A4 with 38 buttons, which is what micheál ó raghallaigh plays; inquire about G/D (not listed on site). jeff thomas is also making a 38 button, as well, but not sure if he's ever done G/D; doesn't hurt to ask!

hey lorie, can you please post a copy of the music, or minimally a link to the tune on thesession.org (that fits at least in that part)? it is hard to fully address your issue without seeing the music. or, if you could type up a rough ABC notation version, that would suffice. i do not normally recommend jumping in this situation, so i cannot determine whether i would do it myself without a full tune for context. until then... i wrote a very detailed post, and there is a lot to it. one point that is easy to miss is that the natural movement of the fingers is an essential consideration in whether or not chopping is a good idea (but not the only consideration). moving outward, e.g. from the C to the G row, is not as efficient a movement as from the G to the C row. this is a problem, because you end up getting a sloppy, dull note or--worse--losing time! moving outward necessitates getting to the button and passing it up, so that the pad of the finger can get to the button (you can't press a button with the top of your nail). moving inwards, however, allows you to grab with a point higher on your finger, all the way up to the first joint (as in my picture). this means that there is less distance traveled, and that you can more easily position a playing surface ahead of time. this is just an example of how jumping is not a good habit to get into, because there is just so much to consider! it is an easy way out if you are in the process of learning an alternate fingering and are not used to it, and can have disastrous results. my recommendation is when in doubt, master the alternate fingering BEFORE you try to permanently choose jumping between two buttons with the same finger. the worst thing that happens is you have flexibility. i am not going to say that i never jump from f# (26) to pull B (21), but i would say that push B (14) is my preferred fingering in this situation. i did learn this from noel. f# to B on the same finger is EXCESSIVELY difficult to pull off in most situations, even in hornpipes and jigs. i do not really recommend it, nor would noel. pull B (21) to f# (26) is easier, but much less common; in this situation i would still advocate B (14) push.

Dave, you realize you answered a two years old message? Hehe, but your post is quite interesting. I would never have believed Noel would be jumping these buttons. Quite interesting. haha, no, i didn't realize it. michael sam wild mentioned the thread on another post, so i went and looked for it. it's still all true!

note: i will use wally's chart as a button reference as well. you are mistaken on noel's use and teaching of "chopping," and cary is correct in that noel has taught him to do this--noel teaches this regularly. you are right, in that many accomplished players view "chopping" as public enemy #1. the reason you think noel does not do this is probably because he would not endorse chopping if asked about it point blank, because there are many instances that it is a disastrous thing to do, and much fewer where it is a good idea. however, as you will see from my response, noel teaches these specific instances very often. in this response, i will call the technique jumping, rather than chopping because the acoustical effect is different when noel does it, and the technique is different as well. i have pictures below demonstrating that the technique is different, underlying my rationale for differentiating between the two terms. i am pretty sure noel also uses the term jumping, but i know he would not differentiate between the two words as i am about to, and would probably think they were equivalent. please feel free to use the terms as you see fit. as a student of noel hills for 7 consecutive years at the advanced level, i can say with some authority that the jump from button #10 to #15 is an essential part of noel's technique. in the 2 part lark in the morning, for example, | A2A AdB | AFA D2D|, noel teaches to go from the A (10) to high d (15) by jumping. in a concert last year, noel played the bucks of oranmore. consider the 4th section, which has the following pattern repeatedly: | Adfd ... | although you might expect noel to play 3rd finger A (13) to first finger d (15), he actually played it as A (10) on the first finger jumping up to d (15). noel does tend to use third finger A (13) in conjunction with push d (15). i would say that that avoiding the jump is his preferred or default fingering for that note combination. however, there are MANY instances where he will use first finger A (10) instead, causing a jump between buttons on the same finger. noel does this to add lift to his playing. in discussing this, he once told me, "it's dance music, your feet lift up, so why can't your fingers jump, too?" this is especially true for jigs and hornpipes in noel's playing, where he will even go from push d (15) to first finger A (10) in order to create space between the notes. in certain instances, jumping or chopping as it is also called creates space between the notes, and offers a shape and phrasing not possible otherwise. this is why i teach my students to only "jump on purpose, and with good reason." so, laziness or inability to play an alternate fingering (such as third finger A, etc) is not a good reason. personally, i tend to teach third finger A (13) as the default fingering for anything adjacent to button 15 (d or e), because i think cleanly jumping is an advanced technique and can result in a choppy sound if done incorrectly. i also do not want my students to learn to extrapolate and jump all over the place. the only place i let them really do it is between sections, if they do not have a pickup note, even though i myself (in line with noel's playing and teaching) jump between certain buttons very often, in line with noel's teaching. in case you have any doubt, rest assured that in 7 years i have asked many questions and watched his fingers and analyzed his fingering patterns extensively. not only am i positive that noel hill jumps between buttons 10 and 15 very often, i can tell you when, why and with what part of his finger he hits the buttons when jumping. i asked him once why he goes from first finger A (10) to push d (15) or pull e (15) more often than the other way around. he said that it was the natural movement of the fingers to be easier to jump inwards that outwards. he thus demonstrated the ease of jumping inwards and the awkwardness of jumping outwards between buttons. i believe this was in 2009. i also asked him in the same conversation why he sometimes collapses his first finger on button 15 moreso than on every other button. he said no one had ever asked him this, but he thought about it for a second and demonstrated why. when jumping/chopping between buttons, you lose time compared to using an alternate fingering, and it can sound choppy (hence the term). most players would try to play both buttons with the pad/tip of the finger, which is the natural way to press a button. however, if noel jumps from button 10 to fifteen, he actually hits button 10 with his finger tip, and then button 15 with the first joint of his finger, rather than his finger tip. this is all accompanied by a mostly sideways shift in finger position. collapsing the joint and subsequently using the joint itself to depress the button helps decrease the amount of time this takes to move from button 10 to 15. this is why i call it jumping... when done correct, it adds a nice round sound to the two notes, rather than a chopping sound. because this is all confusing, here is some pictures to demonstrate how noel hill jumps between these two particular buttons using the collapsed joint, going from A (10) to d (15). i include a picture in the middle (to provide contrast) of "chopping" with the finger tip, which is not how noel does it. please be assured that this is a very technical discussion, and the minutiae of finger placement is not the sort of thing he would normally teach his students during class, because it can be very confusing (in case anyone was worried!). pulling first finger A with the pad of the finger: pull A by consairtin, on Flickr what it would look like if you chopped upwards to push d, using the pad of your finger to press down the note: chopped d by consairtin, on Flickr what noel hill does when he jumps onto d (15) from A, by pressing d (15) with a collapsed joint (10): jumped d by consairtin, on Flickr in this last picture, the pad of my first finger is on the end of the instrument, rather than on any button. the joint of my first finger is pressing the button. it may even appear i am not pressing any buttons at all, but if you look closely, the joint of my finger is collapsed inwards to bridge the gap--i assure you i was pressing the button and making sound while this picture was taking. this is EXACTLY what noel hill does when going between first finger A on button 10 to push d with his first finger on button 15. so, the reason it does not sound choppy (and why you might think he does not "chop") is because noel moves his finger SIDEWAYS just a bit, off button 10, and simultaneously collapses the finger onto button 15 in the G row. this takes much less time than moving the entire finger backwards to put the tip/pad onto button 15. i provide this extensive, overly technical description of jumping between these two buttons to show you that it is not an easy thing to do, and can be very difficult to get it right. noel does use third finger A (13) all the time, in reels, jigs, hornpipes, etc., and this is his default fingering. but, he DOES teach jumping between A and d, as cary said, without the technical discussion i relayed that he had wit hem. he tends to inwardly jump in jigs and hornpipes, but i can think of several reels beyond what i mentioned that he does this as well. he has only taught me one instance of an outward jump during a reel, from d on #15 to A on #10, which was during august 2011. it was in the reel called "the enchanted lady." let me tell you: this is very difficult to get at full speed! i think he might normally teach this as third finger A on button 10... so, in conclusion, noel's position on chopping is to only do it in specific situations on purpose. as you can see, it took up quite a lot of space to discuss only one instance! it is also important to note that noel does emphasize alternate fingerings first and foremost, which is why, david, he said this to you. i just wanted to let you know that cary was not wrong in saying noel taught him a tune with a jumped fingering in it, and he is most certainly not imagining things.

The notes are muffled note only because of the hand, but also because of the palm rest itself. You can, however, use he palm to shape the tone on the notes because of the muffling you mention!

FYI I won this concertina on ebay and would still be interested to know more about it's origin etc. I'm very curious to see how it plays. congrats! keep us updated. i think it would be a great addition to any collection. too bad hohner didn't keep selling such concertinas. i think that over time they could have developed to be as good as their accordions and harmonicas (which are so much better than their concertinas).

yeah, i'm aware that it is technically a tremolo. didn't i say so in my post? so, i think that it is inaccurate to suggest i do not know the distinction, when i myself alluded to it repeatedly. although i did later mention i had not done a mathematical analysis of the pitch or amplitude oscillations, i think that the very fact i mentioned this would suggest i knew the distinction. you can disagree with my distinction, but as you can see, i myself called it a tremolo. the use of the word "might" does not looking up vibrato, it seems that depending on the context, the oscillation can be between 10 and 100 cents (tending towards the higher end). i was guessing the pitch variation in the video i posted was at a maximum of 3 to 5 cents, which is why i said it was "mostly an oscillation of amplitude." it is actually rare to encounter a true vibrato or a true tremolo, at least that's what we were taught in my physics of acoustics class. in practice, the words are sometimes used interchangeably, and it is in this spirit that i call it vibrato, and hesitate to call it a tremolo except in a technical discussion. now, if you are referring to my initial post, i did not say tremolo on purpose. in casual conversation, i find it cumbersome to make that sort of a distinction. that is why i initially used the term "vibrato," rather than saying that it was a "tremolo with a pattern of oscillation in amplitude that approximates the frequency of pitch oscillations in vibrato."

Vibrato? How do you do that? well, i will address if it is actually vibrato below, in response to those who addressed it directly. i learned how to do vibrato from noel hill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTPCXukpYNE#t=3m48 so, it's a little understated in that video, but it's similar to what i would go for. he is doing vibrato all over the place, but the most full and robust of a vibrato happens between 4:13 and 4:15, and then a wider, but quicker example between 4:40 and 4:42. noel is much better at "vibrato" than i am, so i tend to go for the fuller, heavy handed vibrato. so, if you think this is vibrato, and want to know more of how i do it, i'd be more than happy to answer more fully or make a video describing how i do it. The most common definitions are tremolo=variation of amplitude and vibrato=variation of pitch. With free reed instruments the later is difficult to achieve in some regular way. You can do it one way by "bending the note" as with blues harmonica playing. What are you actually doing David? I also believe that very frequent and energetic tremolo practise with concertinas might wear the bellows out a bit quicker but everything is relative. Done gently it ought to do no more harm than any pumping. Have you heard of reeds being damaged by it? That might be more serious... well, please check the link above earlier in this post for an example of what it sounds like. it might not actually be vibrato according to the dictionary definition, but i would argue that it's done to the same effect. i haven't done an acoustical analysis of the sound, but i would suspect it is closer to a tremolo (according to your definition) insofar as it is mostly an oscillation of amplitude. i would like to add, however, that variations in amplitude on the concertina are also accompanied with variations in pitch, so i am hesitant to fully agree with the assertion that it is a tremolo. whether or not classical music term police would call it a vibrato, i am not sure. all i know is that i do my "vibrato" when one would do vibrato on a capable instrument, and actually studying violin vibrato technique has made my concertina vibrato better (my flute vibrato was never highly developed). Vibrato? How do you do that? Vibrato,as I understand the term, is not an option on the Concertina. Tremolo, as I apply it, imposes no additional strain whatsoever on the bellows. please see my discussion of the term vibrato earlier in this post you are reading now. as for the tremolo..., rod, do you apply the tremolo as in the kalfie waltz, as linked by "blue eyed sailor" above? i have tried to do that, and it DID NOT feel like it was good for the bellows. i had never understood why concertinas from south africa were notorious for having damaged bellows until i did that. over many years i can't imagine it would be very good for them at all. even though i am hard on my concertina, i am planning for the bellows to last the rest of my lifetime. i could be wrong, but i felt a lot of pressure being put on the folds of the concertina that i have never felt before.

thanks for posting the video~! i was just going to mention it. it is a great key for an instrument, indeed.

Well, I don't play any music that traditionally has tremolo. Now, I do use vibrato, but not tremolo as demonstrated in the above video. I have learned how do such tremolo, but I don't think that it is good for the bellows (I blame this technique for the infamously damaged bellows in old whetstones sent to South Africa), and since my tradition doesn't require it I don't do it. I believe, however, that I have been able to replicate the tremolo using another technique, Over the years I have developed many tone modulations or techniques that I never use. Haven't found a place for them in folk music, but if I ever branch out, I might incorporate tHem.

wow, that is a remarkable instrument! if only they had continued to make concertinas like that. it seems like a lot of work to make a fake hohner, lol. i'm interested as well in seeing if anyone else has seen these before.

Thanks, Michael! I don't have a cd yet, lol. I think about it a lot, but I still have a lot of work to do to fill up a whole cd well. It would have to be a duet one to start, because I probably couldn't manage a solo cd. I've always wanted to do one with my Grandma's cousin, or my friend in the video. One can dream... Now all I need is the money and the talent,

odds and ends asleep at the wheel concertina casserole bottom of the barrel Anglo amalgamated concertina melting pot squeezable passport concert in a park the grab bag bellows loose reeds concertina confetti

get a diatonic harmonica in C. that is basically the C row on the Anglo. Get a harmonica in G, and likewise. See if you can figure out tunes on these two instruments. Anglo Concertina is more or less the same, but perhaps less awkward (no blowing).

i am right handed, and most of my work is done on the left hand. if i am doing something technically difficult on the left hand, i find it easier than technically different things on the right. who knows!

if you want to "become a friend of itma," here is the link: http://www.itma.ie/itmashop/category/cat/friends/

i hope his sciency equipment is better than his concertina....

I disagree... with your apparent assumption that the only purpose in avoiding the use of the air button is to obtain a "legato effect". Contrariwise, one can (try to) avoid using the air button by choosing fingering which deliberately and frequently reverses the bellows to obtain pushes and pulls in equal balance, in much the same way as a fiddler will choose bowing patterns. E.g., in a jig you might see how close you can get to a repetition of (pull-pull-push, push-push-pull) or vice versa in each measure. Or for a different rhythmic effect, (pull-pull-pull, push-push-push), etc. But unless you have a very leaky instrument, you should be able to balance the pushes and pulls over periods longer than a single measure and thereby develop rhythmic patterns of longer duration... patterns chosen by you the player, rather than dictated by some rule about button-and-bellows sequences imposed from outside the tune itself. I do believe that the air button is a useful tool on the anglo, one which seems unnecessary on unisonoric squeezeboxes (English, duets, PA, etc.), but I think it reasonable for the player to choose how heavily (and how) to use it. Edited to add: Thinking further on the above quote, it seems backward to me. I would think that the more you try to play "legato" -- i.e., without reversing the bellows through a phrase, -- the more likely it will be that you will have to use the air button, to compensate for "too many" notes in one bellows direction. there is really no need in irish music to get into the habit of balancing the pushes and pulls over periods longer than a measure. in heavily chorded music, this can be very beneficial, but it can very quickly kill the lift of a tune in irish music. i see what you mean about the legato thing, but if one is adept at playing all on the push or all on the pull, you could balance pretty easily use button direction alone to manage the bellows in irish music. my point is that it would not necessarily bring anything good to them music. when i was learning my way around the anglo, i learned to play one jig all on the push and all on the pull. after that, i learned to play it with a D drone all on the pull in the first part and/or the second part. although it was a useful exercise, i have never since played the entire tune that way. i will, however, randomly pull to keep the drone going, but more is less with those kind of things. so, without doing a bagpipe like drone, i would never take all the lift out of the tune by just pulling or pushing for no reason ad nauseum.

i have never played an irish tune beginning to end without the use of the air button. depending on the tune, it does tend to average out half push and half pull, but that does not mean you don't need the air button. then, as Ross points out, there are some tunes that are very slanted towards mostly push or pull. i agree with Richard, in that the air button is an essential part of Anglo playing. if one tries to avoid it entirely, you might as well just play english concertina, which would much more easily make that legato effect.

hey rick, welcome to concertina.net. as of right now, there is no book that i am aware of that teaches anything close to Noel's style of concertina playing. i myself learned from the book you mention, and had to unlearn everything in it to learn Noel's system. that being said, it helped me get started, but i do not use anything in my own playing that i learned in that book. in my years of learning music, i have found direct exposure to experienced players essential. concertina technique can be especially problematic, because there are just so many factors that go into playing a single tune. it is not easy to find concertina players at all, never mind a good teacher. personally, i think Noel's camp is an unbelievable opportunity to immerse oneself in an instrument so rare in the United States. Edel Fox is one of Noel's most famous students. her basic G scale is one note different than Noel's, and i'm not sure how she approaches entire tunes. if she was excited about Edel, she'll be just as excited by Noel live. if she would like to learn from Noel and is nervous about being unlearning everything she has learned, my advice would be to sign up for this year! an extra year of reinforcing "other" habits will not make it easier in the future. i still wish i had gone my first year of playing rather than my second. if your friend is interested, pleases show her this video, below, of me playing. i started with the same book she did, and then went to Noel. even though i had to unlearn a lot of things, i think i may be better off for the experience. 7 years later, this is where i am in my playing. everything i do in the video i learned from Noel, even though he did not teach me these tunes. the mistakes are my own, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_NXCYUtpQ8 if your friend is at all interested in attending his camps this year, there still is space in the midwest camp (western kentucky). if she has any questions about camp or the experience of relearning technique, you are more than welcome to pm me for my email and forward it along to her. there is also contact information for registration and other questions listed on Noel's site. if you were wondering, i would like to clarify about the non-disclosure agreements. they are designed to protect Noel's copyright on sheet music, classroom recordings, and concerts--not to prevent any of us from teaching his system. this may seem to be overdone, but just 2 or 3 years ago a major organization in ireland made a recording of Noel's playing (as well as others at the same concert) and illegally sold the bootleg as a fundraiser. i will not mention the organization, but it just stands as an example of people infringing on Noel's copyrights in the past. there are several of us who have learned from Noel that teach our own interpretation of his method, including his basic scales, alternate fingerings, chords, and ornamentation. we are not prohibited from doing this by the non-disclosure agreements, but we have to make our own materials and recordings. even so, the best way to learn Noel's system is from Noel himself. hope that is as helpful an answer as possible given that there are no books on the market describing anything similar to Noel's system.

hey Carey, hope to see you in a few years! hope all is well. i can't wait to see everyone again and meet new people. this year is a big year for me, lucky number 7! Susan, I definitely like your new user name, hey lorie, the picture didn't load. we only have your local file path. try again!

there is also an iphone amazing slow downer, which is also excellent. i have found the amazing slow downer to be indispensable in learning to play music at a higher level, never mind learning tunes by ear.