Posts posted by Sprunghub
Some images in support of the sale, on behalf of the owner.
The instrument is located near Worcester ( the Uk one! ) but Posting is a potential option.
Another vote for fish glue. Keep the dog/s away though if you have them, drives them mad. Worse than hot Rabbit glue.
1 minute ago, Mikefule said:
That is the rate of Belgian VAT - which the Uk supplier should be discounting off the purchase price ( albeit only at the Uk 20% rate, so 1% less as Belgian VAT is greater than ours) to be paid on receipt in Belgium. The Import Duty is likely to be a couple of % points on the value? It is marginally more expensive than it would have been a couple of years ago but hardly so.
8 minutes ago, Bill Crossland said:
It is now liable for import duty from the UK to Europe.....
That is as may be, but what is the rate of import duty from the Uk to Belgium ? on a concertina ?
1 hour ago, papawemba said:
Brexit was faster than my brain lol...I should have bought it before...that's life.
Why do you reference Brexit and what (major) difference do you suggest that makes to you buying an instrument from the Uk ?
13 hours ago, Stephen Chambers said:
Certainly, that'll be 1897.
Many thanks, Stephen.
This tends to suggest you are potentially buying a 12 year old instrument of uncertain - but almost certainly not "better" - construction/condition, rather than a brand new 'made for you' Marcus or A.C. Norman instrument at roughly +/- the same outlay with none of the potential risks ? and ongoing maker support??
I know which I would opt for ?
Alex H & John W, I go 'some way' to concur and revise my input accordingly!......when the rules changed there was an emphasis on the Import Duty / VAT terminology "differential" in the information promoted by HM Gov around the 'VAT/Duty' process. It appears that since the end of the Transition Period, terminology may have altered, BUT.....apart from the 2.5% tariff, the principal still applies that you do NOT get charged 20% Import Duty AND 20% VAT. You are charged an import Tariff of 2.5% and then the same value as VAT, so 22.5% rather than 20% which is relatively negligible in the scheme of thngs, my apologies on that front for a mis-steer. The fact remains......the 2.5% and the 20% are charged based on the 'declared value' and the "declared value" is a moveable feast to suit buyer/seller and their preparedness to take a risk on the insurance. As Alex W suggests, there are rules for reduced ID & VAT for Antiques, over 100 years old on importation, but obtaining the evidence may cost more than the value of the potential discount and place an onerous responsibility in the 'seller' to provide.
Leaving the EU made the principal difference, albeit not as great a one as many make out, with regards to buying ( in the Uk ) from the EU, at which point we have to pay VAT on purchases. Carriage costs have gone up about €10 on a typical instrument sized parcel from Europe. But - as above, the "sale" price, if from an EU business should be '0' rated for VAT in the EU country of supply, or the VAT paid ( to the Uk ) at source and the fact declared, which should compensate for it in the most part. The same does not apply to 'private' sales, but there is always room to point that out to the seller in the hope of some 'consideration' on the price.....or.....amend the listed value accordingly on the CN23 form, which means the value of the VAT to be charged is discounted, albeit it will potentially affect any insurance cover.
As far as the ROTW is concerned, certainly over the last decade that I have been buying and selling to North America, the Far East and some non EU, European countries the rules have been pretty 'static'. Some of the problem is that that the system itself, as with the current VAT on 'on-line' EU to Uk sales, means you have to get in front of the potential pitfalls - if you can, because the system hasn't ironed out all of the cross channel process yet.
52 minutes ago, John Wild said:
Import into the UK unfortunately has an element of double taxation.
The goods are subject to import duty. The rate will depend on the classification of the specific item.
Then, VAT is added at 20% on the total cost including import duty.
I am sorry John, but I think you will find that is not correct. You pay EITHER Import Duty on non EU Goods or VAT on goods from the EU. You do not pay "both". It just so happens that the VAT rate - for goods from the EU and Import Duty for goods from the ROTW arriving into the Uk coincide at +/- 20%. Goods purchased from the EU should be '0' rated by the EU seller to allow for the 20%VAT, charged on import into the Uk. The same applies to goods exported to the EU from the Uk, ie. they should be '0' rated on export and VAT charged at the National rate, which varies between ( around ) 19% & 27% for various EU countries. There is no VAT on goods privately imported from the USA.
There are two issues with purchase of goods 'online' from the EU where 'some' sellers are registered to pay VAT to the Uk and there is an issue with items purchased from Ebay in Europe where they charge VAT 'on-line' at the point of purchase and are supposed to pay it to the Uk exchequer. In both instances, that should '0' rate the item when it comes through Customs, but Customs are in some cases charging the VAT again, but that is liable to challenge with evidence that the VAT has been paid and it being claimed back. That is a double charging of VAT, but not Import Duty AND VAT.
On 11/12/2022 at 10:43 AM, Richard Mellish said:
Anyone in the UK considering buying this box will also need to be prepared for a steep import charge. It was an extra 20% on the D-A Anglo that I bought from Donovan in South Africa.
Whilst this is - on the one hand true, it's not a "steep Import charge", per se, it's Duty at the same rate as VAT....same as you would have to pay on the instrument if bought from a business in the Uk or if you bought anything else into the country that was due 'tax'? The "charge/Duty/Tax", call it what you will is calculated by virtue of a % rate ie. the 20%VAT/ID rate against the "declared" purchase price.....ie. that price declared for the purpose by the seller on the Customs Form CN23. It also - unfortunately - includes a 20% charge on the carriage costs. That all adds up, especially with the potential Insurance cover also being adjusted to whatever the 'declared' price is too. I have a feeling that in the USA - for commercial sellers at least, there is a 'Federal' law issue around under declaring value so as to "manage" the tax charge for buyers at the receiving end? Probably all started with 'tea'!
Whether that applies to 'private' sales, I don't know, but whether it does or not, for those who are not risk averse, import into the Uk at a 'declared' value will only ever create a charge of 20% of goods + carriage. Who is to say what an "old Squeezebox" is really worth.....you cant wear it or eat it.....It's RRP back in the day when it was made was only a few £'s. As long as seller and buyer are happy with whatever £/$/€ has been exchanged and the risks are accepted by the buyer if insurance value is under-stated, it doesn't have to be a huge sum or a 'shock' on arrival. They are not likely to "lose" a parcel the size of a concertina and if it is packed to be 'bomb-proof' personally, I would 'compensate' ( at least ) the 20% into the value declaration. Truth is I'd probably compensate 75% in !! but that's just me. Many (most?) insurers only cover for 'loss' anyway on musical instruments rather than damage.
Could you advise/confirm on a Lachenal made, 32k ( all note reeds / no whistles, duck calls etc ); full width, fairly simple fret pattern metal ends, 5 fold bellows, steel reeds with bone buttons, ser. no. 104785. A relatively 'close' number previously advised as being from April 1888? but may have been subject to revision. Tia.
Having said that the engraving could have been done at any time - which of course it could - it appears to be of Maidenhair & A.N. Other fern leaf and well done. Fern's being an 'obsession' of the Victorians, from the 1860's onwards, so quite possibly contemporary with the build ?
I wouldn't advocate it as a leather substitute, per se, but, as a practical & aesthetic 'skin' ( a la cloth ) over folded single length 'folded' card, Melodeon style bellows - which would lend themselves far more easily to square construction than hexagonal, although not exclusively so, it might make for a viable option.
Not one for the purists and traditionalists, I know! and gussets are almost certainly still best placed being 'real' leather ( subject to experimentation )
Hewitt's seem to sell it principally for book binding - although they reference it as commonly used in the Auto Trade, where it must take some 'wear' for finishing interiors. I use it for the "spines" on bellows edges and glue the 'non' shiny side using Hewitts PVA / Archive Glue and it shows no signs of suffering, although there is probably much less 'flexing' going on than on a concertina bellows. The strength of the Arbetex may well allow a reduced 'gsm' in the card which would allow for lighter/more flexible construction.
I have never tried to glue 'to' it's shiny surface - I can see that would raise issues......if I were to ( and will give it a try when next home ) I would give Scotch Weld M3 1099 a go first as I use it for other vinyl related work.
In fairness to the fabric and the bellows, many "better" quality Melodeon/Button Accordion bellows are, as outlined above; on their 4, rather than 6 sides; a continuous 'zig-zag' of folded card. They are then covered in light fabric ( or simply 'paper' ) and the seams reinforced with a strip of stronger fabric reinforced material. Many of these bellows have remained serviceable for the best part of 100 or so years and will probably be so for many more years to come. Even the cheaper, mass produced ones seem to remain sound, although historically, "some" attempts to adapt the gusset material has created 'fails'.
An interesting material which I know Alex has some experience of is Arbetex which is a 'thin', "leather look" synthetic material which he has covered a Concertina 'case' with, I see. I have used this to replace the 'vinyl'/twill material along the seams of traditional Melodeon Bellows with considerable success ( and economy / ease of use ) and whilst traditionalist would "cringe" it appears it may be a useful material for building viable, lightweight, accordion style, concertina bellows as a 'skin' over continuous 'Z' folded card.
I had one, too, Peter, once upon a while ago. I would agree ( in the case of mine ) the "extra" reeds were a few cents apart, but in the same octave, a la typical Melodeon sound, which gave that vibrato/tremolo effect when both sets were engaged.
"Celestial to Organ Tone at the pleasure of the player" - albeit less so in my hands, possibly!
This link may replace the apparently 'broken' one in the thread above, to the original Cambells catalogue.
....and beware the hyper-sensitivity of Security men and their scanners and their "What the 'heck' is that" approach ? Protecting stuff can make it look as if efforts are being made to 'hide' it and encourage suspicion .....would it not be better as hand-luggage ?
Pm sent on the off chance
The danger as I see it, this early in the process is that there is a lot of room for "interpretation". Even in the Uk advice there are "you may be able to" comments, which tends to suggest it could be on the whim of the Officials as to what they will, or won't pass, unchallenged.
There is Uk Gov advice that (even) working musicians can carry their personal instruments through Borders without a Carnet as long as they are in their travelling vehicle and that foot/air passengers certainly can ( by all accounts), yet at the same time other text suggests that for working musicians "kit" carried in vehicles needs a Carnet.
Whether someone in a Uniform accepts that it is your personal, non business possession remains a matter for the individual judgement. Trying to explain the difference between carrying it to play in Sessions for "fun" and a "Gig", which may imply business, may yet lead to some friction.
I don't think many people will have any practical experience yet and it will be useful to get insights - good & bad. My experience previously, under the old EU/DEFRA rules was with small livestock. They were - or should/could have been pretty onerous, as bad as those now around musical instruments, even though we were all in the same regime. In practice, no one bothered! It was probably because it was too complicated and DEFRA spent more time providing advice on how to "work around the rules" than work within them.
I am not sure if this would apply given your intended itinerary, but were I leaving the Uk ( or travelling to, or through it ) to go to some - possibly most countries given the way we are being perceived within "Europe" which, like the Swiss, we have apparently become "disconnected" from by not being in the "EU" - I would have evidence of "prior purchase" before entering/leaving.
A receipt....phone image of the instrument with a date verified picture in the home environment, or whatever to prove ownership, especially with a "new" instrument.
It may be you have no intention of coming anywhere near us, but if you do, you don't want to have a "Ham Sandwich" moment courtesy of some over zealous Customs official charging you an "Import Duty", or seizing your instrument.
It looks as if, for Uk / EU travel, they have "lapsed" the Carnet requirement for "hand luggage" for Air/Sea ( not vehicle ??) passenger, foot travellers if that is relevant.
1889 Lachenal 32k Anglo in C/G - all notes.
in Buy & Sell
Posted · Edited by Sprunghub
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