ceemonster

[[[it's quite rare to hear it on an english concertina!]]] That is because it will turn your brain into Swiss cheese to do it continuously underneath the whole melody the entire time throughout from start to finish, as opposed to what most EC players do, even the most adept, which is create the illusion of it by doing it as fillers/connecters in spaces between stretches of melody. Continuous rhythmic bass is what accordions and duets are for. It "can" be done on EC, but my own preference on EC aesthetically as well as technically, would be to express the melody on it like a violin or clarinet would, with double stops here and there (or chords for those who can't live without multiple voices), and bring in a second instrument to supply the bass rhythm, like a fiddler would do.

I love the modal/modal-minor Dalarna music, and you express it wonderfully on concertina, keep it coming! I recently nabbed a sweet vintage copy of the LP "Folk Fiddling From Sweden: Traditional Fiddle Tunes From Dalarna," played by Bjorn Sabi and Ole Hjorth. This stuff transfers niftily to concertina!

I understand it's not in the thousands. But I heard it from two separate sources, that it was astonishing the numbers of very adept young trad players in Ennis both years for Fleadh Cheol, burning it up on concertina. I've also heard it anecdotally outside the Fleadh context, that concertina is a hot choice at the moment for young trad tyros. Outside Ireland it's a different thing, and that's not what I'm wondering about---In Ireland, young trad players who become adept are not screwing around with Rochelles. Whether hybrid or not, they're using fast, responsive instruments. I'm fascinated to know if they're largely ordering from new makers nowadays, or what. Maybe you're right, Geoff, and there are still enough vintage examples around to supply them, but I'm skeptical about that when it comes to Anglos. Maybe they get going on those very responsive hybrids now made in Ireland, and then order from Suttner/Dipper/Carroll. Certainly in North America the Morses and Edgleys will take you anywhere you need to go technically.

One keeps encountering references here and there to growing interest in concertina among a new, burgeoning crop of young Irish traditional music players, Clare and elsewhere. This came up more than once in the last couple of years a propos of the Fleadh in Ennis, but I've seen/heard it elsewhere as well. So the question comes to mind . . . Where are they getting their instruments? Surely there wouldn't be enough vintage examples out there, if it's really a growing trend. Are some playing quality hybrids? Are many ordering from modern makers?

[[[so you leave me wondering if you would really be happy with a Jeffries-style EC, or in fact are demanding a much different beast.]]] I'd be delighted with an EC that sounded like a Jeffries. I agree with you that the Wheatstone 22s and some of the 21s have a good sound in the vein I like (though not like a Jeffries, which would be my 1st choice in a tone personality), but if/when I buy a nice concertina-reeded EC, it will have to have tenor notes. (I love the lower notes, both for their intrinsic sound and for the way they enable you to play many tunes in "bari" octave, and hate, hate, hate, the way the treble layout instead gives you a super-high octave I never use and don't care about, right in the most comfortable ergonomic position). If I do acquire a concertina-reeded EC, it's probably a TT, since Tenor 48s are thin on the ground. And I'm not thrilled with the timbre/tone personality of a lot of the TT ECs out there. They are beautiful-sounding, I'm not saying they aren't. But it's not the fat, dance-band concertina voice personality I'm looking for. When they're loud, they tend to be "thin" loud. The answer to this is of course for an enterprising, creative, and innovative maker to give the world a Tenor 48 with a nice fat, brassy folk-dance-music sound to rival the volume and timbre of the Anglo. But the market for bespoke ECs just is not there to inspire them to it. Ah, the Model 24. But isn't that an EXT, not a TT? Where, oh where, is the non-Aeola metal-ended Tenor or TT big brother of the Model 22/21, big cousin to the Model 24, with the same lung power and voice personality as those models?

[[[Please remember that many of us are not interested in playing loud dance music, dance derived music is not everyone's thing]]] I've read and re-read my post, and for the life of me, I don't see any position taken that all ECs should have the tone/timbre capability I would love to see developed. The last I checked, your EC tone preferences were in no danger of being scorned in any way--quite the contrary. It is your preferences that are honored by the vast majority of ECs out there. There's no need to be a begrudger about the tastes of others. No one is depriving you of anything. No one is taking anything away from you.

I guess I'm thinking the market hasn't so much "bombed" for EC as, it inflated there for a while. The Anglo market only got sky-high because of the Irish craze. That craze isn't there for EC, and the inflated prices aren't floating now. There was a similar, though lesser, puff-up a few years ago for duets that has really fizzled back down the last couple years as well.

I do think Button Box's vintage EC prices are high for current market. Not doubly high or anything, but they are pushing it, particularly since the discerning browser will note the item listings don't say, "freshly fine-tuned and re-conditioned by Button Box," and the instruments by and large are not going anywhere. By and large, most of the ECs they have listed have been sitting there for a long time. It's unfortunate the incentive is not there for makers to develop, design, and engineer new-generation premium ECs. A peeve of mine with the vintage EC boxes is that exquisite as many of them are, they often have a more refined tone that does not have the lung power, and timbre-wise is not as "fat" and robust for dance-derived, instrumental world folk genres as that of Anglo. While obviously unisonoric concertinas as they've been designed and engineered to the present, have a different default tendency in that department from bisonoric, creative engineering could certainly come up with ways to compensate or augment, and give ECs a more robust quality for the dance hall as opposed to the English parlor. But as the interest doesn't seem to be there out in the market, the incentive is not there for that creative innovator maker. I've seen commenters note a couple times on other threads that they were getting that "fatter" folk-dance voice more from accordion-reeded ECs than from concertina-reeded, and I have to agree. I wonder if this is why Morse found a market out there . . . ? I would like my Morse Geordie tenor to be another 25-30% louder, but its actual voice personality or character is great for folk music. People comment at its tone. My Morse Geordie baritone EC has a big, fat, rich voice, and if it was somewhat faster would probably become my only concertina. I am crazy about the voice personality of that instrument. As it is, response-wise it is amazingly fast for a baritone, it will do everything but the ride-like-the-wind super-fast dance speeds. Mind, both these Morses have upgraded TAM reeds, which in addition to responding somewhat faster than "super durall," also have a brighter, squawkier (and, crucial for a baritone, clearer,) tone that really helps make an EC into a dandy-sounding folk box.

[[[i still want one!!]] Well, fhs, OP, get on the Dipper list. You can always drop out if you luck in to one. Plus, aren't you not too terribly far from the Dippers? Perhaps you could make an appointment to visit, admire, and discuss. My understanding is, it is the custom orders that are super-slow out of their shop. If your order is pretty straightforward, you actually have a chance of getting one before encountering an available Dipper for sale. I lucked in to a County Clare model for sale on this site over a decade ago, and have not seen a half-dozen Dipper Anglo C/Gs listed since.

Oh, sorry, I didn't realize there was still a "Music Room" channel. What, you messaged them and they haven't replied? Hmmm. I'm gonna message them too and start a big "Chantal Noppen" campaign.

Well, I wonder if the store closed down. She worked at, or was associated with an instrument store in the UK called The Music Room. That is who ORIGINALLY posted those demo clips to Youtube. They had their own Youtube channel, of folks playing instruments they stocked and sold. There was a guy there named John Loomis who also demo'd some concertinas and who may have been a/the principal in the business. But Chantal Noppen demo'ed some ECs----Concertina Connection Jacks or Jackies, and also the Morse ECs I mentioned. However, I don't see their site online, wondering if they closed and I didn't realize it. I guess it's been a while since I checked them out online. Chantal should really do a solo trad EC recording, she's a very nice player. Here it is---a 2016 melodeon.net thread about The Music Room closing down. So . . . they are not there to maintain the demo clips. And things have gone down from Youtube. Probly the only stuff left is stuff there secondarily, that was captured by others and is now on the youtube channels of others. I WONDERED why the sole Chantal Noppen clip left on the 'tube was on a channel unrelated to The Music Room. John Loomis may be locatable on the internet, perhaps he has the clips or knows where they are, and would be kind enough to restore them to the Universal Session. Sorry, my computer won't copy links. But the melodeon.net thread title is The Music Room - Closing Down

Here is one of the tunes from the vanished Chantal Noppen Morse Albion EC demos. It is not the one I intended to learn, that one was a 3-part, modal/modal-minorish tune. But this too is a nifty item. It's an English trad slip jig titled "The Peacock Followed the Hen." I recognized it after ordering a lovely Irish concertina CD by Jason O'Rourke titled "The Northern Concertina." This tune opens one of the sets on that CD, and I had an "Aha!" moment due to watching Chantal Noppen play it on EC numerous times on Youtube. Not sure this clip is the same key as the Chantal Noppen concertina demo, but it's the same setting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmf22gPuTrw

​Actually, I'm going to have to correct myself. The Chantal Noppen demo tune I was taken with, was for a Morse Albion EC. She demoed an Albion Bari EC in one clip, and an Albion Treble EC in a different clip. The tune I liked was a three-part with a very modal or modal-minor cast to it. I THINK it was in the Bari demo, but not 100% sure. And I do see both of her Albion EC demos have vanished. What is the deal with that, one does wonder. Even if they don't stock the Morse EC anymore, so what? Why deprive the world of nifty concertina music as well as info that is hard to come by, about a concertina model? So annoying. . . . And even more annoying that I didn't capture that tune when I had the chance . . .

Here's hoping you succeed in getting it returned to Youtube----I, too, loved that tune and meant to learn it one of these days. Had not realized it had vanished . . . One does wish these demo folks would note the tune title in their clips, I do see some here and there are starting to do that . . .

There's nothing new about it, and not much "traditional" about it, either. Niall Vallely was doing this kind of jazzed-up, scalar noodling over a decade ago, and gobs of others are doing it as well. Having said all that, Mr. Amini is certainly a very good player.

You say you're not thinking much of sessions and think that might mean you don't need to worry about volume or responsiveness in terms of speed. I'm going to gently counsel you away from that view given that the concertinas you are considering are already in a high-quality price range. In that bracket, yes, you do want the greatest responsiveness available regardless of whether you ever intend to play super-fast or in sessions. Quick and easy response is a factor of button action, reed response, and bellows. If you purchase the Morse, I highly recommend making sure you order the reed upgrade they offer to "hand-type" (in Italian, tipo a mano, often abbreviated TAM) reeds. TAM reeds are also known as "hand-finished" grade of reeds---regardless, you want the TAM/hand reeds in an accordion-reeded concertina in this price range. There is indeed a somewhat faster response, and the Morse upgrade is not expensive given the price bracket this concertina already falls in. It does not come standard, it is an option they offer and it must specifically be ordered and documented on your receipt. The Morse button action is very quick. I believe that TAM reeds are standard on Edgley concertinas, but that can be verified with Mr. Frank Edgley himself. I have never known these concertinas as "clunky," they respond very quickly, and can be ordered with metal ends and snazzy decorations if that floats your boat. I've heard people say Connor concertinas don't have the most lightning-fast button action in the world, but I have always loved the look and the sound of the metal-ended Connors you see a lot of the young Irish players using on Comhaltas and Youtube clips. A Connor in excellent condition would probably be a great instrument to get going on, as would be Morse, Edgley, Kensington, the Marcus concertinas made in Wales, and the Andrew Norman concertinas made in Sussex. I would check with Marcus and Norman to be sure the reeds are premium TAM/hand-type reeds, but I'm almost sure they are.

I am almost certain the video clips are with the standard reeds. Unlike the ESB, the EC Geordie Baritone does not have TAM reeds as standard. I paid for mine as an option. My instrument does sound subtly different from the clips. There is also a person who several years back posted a slew of Geordie Baritone clips on youtube, and my instrument sounds different from those as well.

I don't see it being a good proposition replacing reeds in a cheap Asian-made concertina. The action, bellows, frames, and pans are simply not high-quality enough to make this anything but a money-loser as an investment. Plus, you really want premium-grade accordion reeds ("tipo-a-mano" or TAM, also known as "hand-finished" reeds), for the quicker reed response. That's not a good expenditure on a lesser-grade concertina. All regular-pitch concertinas are squawky, and particularly high-pitched in the upper notes. A premium-grade, wood-ended Anglo concertina might get you a richer, warmer sound, but it's going to be the same pitch, and you're still going to have some upper-range squawk, that is the concertina personality. Not everyone cares for the sound of concertina, which is considered an acquired taste by some listeners I've canvassed, and this is the most-cited reason. For "deeper," you'd probably need to go for a Baritone as noted by posters above. Many Baritones, though the deeper voice is beautiful, do not respond fast enough to be terribly useful for anything but slow chordal playing, often as backing to vocals. However, the Morse accordion-reeded Baris do seem to be something of a breakthrough in this department. The ESB Anglo is a marvel of engineering in terms of the response quickness for a Baritone. I can't find it, but there is a thread here after the ESB Anglo came out, where someone from Morse explained internal engineering improvements they developed, to make their Bari Anglos respond more quickly, including and especially engineering improvements to the lowest (usually slowest-responding) notes. Additionally, it is my understanding that tipo-a-mano (TAM) reeds are standard in the Morse ESB Anglos, another enhancement for quicker response. (I should also note, I think I recall reading a post in some thread noting the Edgeley Baritone Anglos also had a wonderful response, and sounded very much like concertina reeds.) [[[i wonder if the [Morse] baritone EC's sound as good.]]] They do, at least from my own experience with a Morse Geordie EC. However, that is with these caveats: 1--In the posting I mentioned above by the Morse person about improvements to the Baritones, they noted these improvements were developed first for the Anglo ESB and then later applied to the ECs, and that Morse Geordie Baritone ECs after XXXX date would have these engineering improvements. So your Morse Geordie Baritone must be built after that point, whatever it was. 2012, 2013, something like that. They could confirm. 2---The Morse ESB Anglo has higher-grade, premium "TAM" (tipo-a-mano aka "hand-finished") reeds as standard. On the Geordie EC Baritone, I believe they are an option for an extra $100-ish. This option is a must in a Baritone IMHO. I personally would not purchase ANY high-quality accordion-reeded concertina that did NOT have hand or TAM reeds, but for sure, you want them in a Baritone. In addition to being a bit brighter (which helps clarify the "muddy" low Baritone notes), they respond a bit quicker, than "factory" reeds, and you need that in a Baritone. Perhaps they are standard by now in the Morse Geordie Bari ECs, they certainly should be for the price. But if they're not, I highly recommend coughing up the dosh and getting this option. I have a Morse Geordie EC Baritone with the TAM reed option, and it's astonishingly quick, responsive, and clear-voiced. It is not as fast as a Treble, and might not be fast enough for Irish tunes at the hyper-fast speed in fashion with some of the ITM "super-bands," However, it plays a relaxed, traditional Clare/East Galway speed very nicely at a brisk swingy tempo quite surprising in a Baritone, and sounds wonderful for tango and Eastern European stuff. Tone-wise, I dunno, it might be my favorite concertina. I kind of prefer it to regular pitch.

How will I show my face again in County Clare . . .

I spent years with Anglo and reached a pretty good proficiency level, studied it like a maniac with my Irish heroes and played it with bliss in Irish sessions for some time. . . only to start finding it a little limited, and become interested in EC. I've also given Crane a whirl, did not consider Maccann because I didn't want to be bothered with an irregular layout when there are two more consistent, more easily-memorized layout options available (Hayden and Crane). I liked duet so far as it goes, but . . . somewhat like Geoff, I have found chromatic accordion gives vastly, hugely more scope for the kind of use I contemplated for duet, and am playing CBA for that kind of (two-handed) music. I don't particularly care for the sound of chordal/multi-voiced music on concertina, and am finding concertina most desirable and most useful, for music that is largely melody, like on fiddle, with only light touches of bass or fiddle-type double stops or drones. I'm not saying you can't play chordal music on EC. I'm saying, if you wish to play melody with bass accompaniment or counterpoint, duet or one of the unisonoric accordion systems has more scope. On the other hand, for playing music that is largely melodic, there's no concertina system like the fluidity of the EC.

I find gypsy jazz melody lines particularly wonderful on concertina, and same with paris musette melodies. Personally, I find concertina most attractive as a melody instrument, but it is certainly nice to be able to put some very light bass or chordal touches under the melody here and there if there are no bass/rhythm instruments in the mix . . .

There are two incredible large-size metal ended maccann wheatstone aeolas at Button Box in Massachusetts at the moment. They have been sitting there a long time, and I do think the prices are set too high for current market. However, even priced more realistically they would be priced quite differently from this ebay listing. Oh, not to mention, there are video demos, and needless to say you can go there and test them anytime you like.

I favor the four-hour drive, with extra treats built in to the excursion along the way. Second choice is escrow, but FYI, can't find the news story at this second, but there have been recent reports of scam online escrow companies. So there's vetting to be done for the escrow service as well as the instrument.

I have not found workshops terribly useful for technical learning, and probably would never have attended even one had I not fallen for a ton of bricks for a musical tradition/instrument/style with NO master musicians in my instrument in geographic proximity to my habitat. I went to workshops for a while just to get the time in the same room with the master players who were my own touchstones, and found it really valuable, despite the fact that I find the workshop setting really annoying. YouTube is helping a lot with this for folks, but really being in the room with that person---It does work a magic and helps get it into your bones. 2 of my own touchstones remain Dympna O'Sullivan and Mary Macnamara, and I was fortunate enough to spend several days running with each of them at different festivals---Lawrence already threw in some of my own 2 cents on that one. Mary's classes BTW are very crowded. As in, like 2 dozen grownups both times I attended. But she handles it very well---There is discussion and demonstration for everybody, and then people are loosely divided into groups. But all groups stay in the class with Mary the whole time, in one big circle. (There is none of this sending people away to "learn from each other" while the teacher focuses on one group--a total waste of Irish music-learning travel money if ever there was one). If your group is sidelined, you are still in the big circle, just not playing---you are watching, listening and tapping along while Mary leads the tune and plays with the group she is focusing on. And it is just about all, with Mary leading, so there is a master at the helm and you are hearing the East Clare music and rhythm as led by a master. So at 3.5 ish hours daily for a few days running, that is a good chance to get some of the East Clare swing and rhythm intaya. I think if you don't have it close to hand where you live, as much as you can spend a bit of time with players whose style you really admire, it can be really valuable for some period of your development. RE crowded classes in the Catskills---Ha, my experience was that the advanced classes were clogged up with intermediate-at-best individuals who grossly overstated their skill level because they just had to be there with such-and-such teacher. I do have to chime in with Geoff and Peter here. I went to the Mrs. Crotty weekend in Kilrush the last year it was an official festival event (there is one sad loss, btw). And during the official concert, they packed the bill with local exemplars of that same, patented style. It was very boring and dreary, no fault to the young players. It's just tiresome to listen to. However, it was kind of spoken of by the sponsors/emcees as just the last word in incredibleness.

A nice package of Edel Fox offerings from the recent Corofin event as well. Gee, all this stuff is really swell . . .