Roger Hare

Ah! Thank you for that - that will save me a deal of messing about!

John thank you. Your thoughts mirror mine almost exactly. The ABC code you posted a few minutes ago looks more or less exactly like what I came up with as a 'solution'. Thank you for the image from the book - that saves me a trip to the Music Library in Manchester to have a look at the damn' thing... David thank you. I had not thought of this stuff being the product of 'software', but I am now inclined to think that your observation that "there’s no way a human being would have come up with that abc solution given what the page of music looks like" may well be at the bottom of how this stuff appears[1]. I wonder if anyone is still using such software? The rudimentary nature of any such software might help to 'explain' why in different contexts the 'solutions' appear to be completely different... I just (a few minutes ago) found another example - M:9/8l this time - also from Northumbrian Minstrelsy - what fun I'm having... Thanks again both... ____________________________________________ [1] I have however occasionally seen examples of tunes which are clearly printed/written as 4/4 (say) being transcribed as 2/2, or vice versa. I dunno why...

Thanks so much for all the responses! I've forwarded contact details, etc. for all respondents to Frank. I think though, that some of the instruments on offer may be over his price ceilng... Both Frank and myself are blown away by the number of responses - the power of concertina.net, eh?

Thanks to those who have responded via PM. I have passed on your contact details to the prospective purchaser.

Well now, I wasn't altogether sure myself. I do know that he has looked at some new 'hybrids', and found that they were only available in C/G. I know that he has also spoken with a dealer who was a bit downbeat about the likelihood of finding a vintage G/D any time soon. It may be he has been on the receiving end of both disappointing responses. I am in full agreement with your comment "Either way doesn't make much sense to me" if only because in the context of our conversation, we were talking about both vintage and new instruments... I have done two things: 1) trailed here for prospective vendors (I have received two responses in double-quick time and have passed on contact details) 2) alerted him to the existence of makers of 'hybrid' instruments who will undertake the supply of a G/D instrument I'm getting good at this - this is the 3rd time I have acted as an 'honest broker' (he said, modestly) in setting up private sales like this. Maybe I should start charging a commission fee...🙂

Recently I have come across several instances of M:4/4l in ancient ABC transcriptions. For example: X:2104 T:Coffee and Tea C:Trad S:Northumbrian Minstrelsy M:4/4 O:England F:England K:G "C"ef| "G"g2 d2 BGdB| "G"Gggf ~g2 ed| "G"g2 d2 BGdB| "D7"Aefg ~f2 ed|\ M:4/4l "G"g4 d2c2 B2G2 BcdB|\ M:4/4 "G"Gggf ~g2 ed|\ M:4/4l "G"g4 d2c2 B2G2 BcdB|\ M:4/4 "D7"Aefg ~f2:: ed| "G"BgBg (3def gd| "G"BgBg ~f2 ed| "G"BgBg (3dgf gd| "D7"Aegf gfed|\ M:4/4l "G"B2g2B2g2 fgfe g2d2|\ M:4/4 "G"BgBg ~f2 ed|\ M:4/4l "G"B2g2B2g2 fgfe g2B2|\ M:4/4 "D7"Aefg ~f2| The context is different in different examples. For instance, in the above, the bars following the M:4/4l all appear to be 'overfull', but replacing each instance of M:4/4l with L:1/16, and the following M:4/4 with L:1/8 would supply a 'fix' (of some sort). However I have seen an example (can't find it now) where the 'fix' would be to replace M:4/4l with L:1/4 which is in some sense, exactly the opposite approach. I'm deeply puzzled... Does anyone have any idea what this means please? I've looked at some 'early' ABC documentation and can't find any reference to this sort of stuff. Some additional points: I've also seen examples of M:6/8l and M:3/4l Several of the instances of this seem to be in transcriptions of tunes from Northumbrian Minstrelsy, (though there are others). Is there an ancient transcription of Northumbrian Minstrelsy out there 'in the wild' which has got broken up, and lost any accompanying explanation of what this stuff means? Any advice welcome. Ta.

One of my partners in crime at t'Morris is looking for a used G/D Anglo to complement his current instrument (a 30-button C/G Crabb from the 1960s). Ideally, he is looking for a 30-button, but a 26- button is acceptable. Ideally he is looking for a vintage instrument, but a qood-quality hybrid would be acceptable. I don't think a new instrument is on the cards (because of the waiting lists...) I think he would prefer to restrict any transaction to U.K./Europe. If anyone has one to offer, please let me have your contact information and I will pass it on. ________________________________________ He has been told by at least one dealer that 'we don't do G/D instruments any more' (or words to that effect), which I personally find a little worrying...

This is what I do, with those tunes which otherwise appear to end up 'in the air'. Either that or add on an extra 'exit' note of appropriate pitch. I assume this is OK? After all, "no respectable folk musician ever plays what is written in the score"...🙂

Me too! I try to apply the little theory I have in a 'sensible' way, and also couple it with ear'oling the tunes. Yes, it is fun. but sometimes it's bloody hard work. Usually, I fall apart completely when I see these final sometimes (to me) confusing notes (eg: EDC as mentioned by DB). Still, it keeps me off the streets and out of the public houses...

Drifting off-topic... Purely by chance, a couple of hours after I submitted that post, I came across a 'legacy' script which had been cast in Cmaj. It was actually in Gmaj - except it wasn't - it was really (as near as I could tell) in Emin. This stuff about key sigs. is bewildering for a wretch like me who has a very imperfect, and unstructured knowledge of music theory. My limited understanding of this key sig. business is that a 'key sig.' does not indicate the actual key of a tune, but indicates the modal scale which is used for the tune - ie: the number of flats/sharps in that scale, (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, etc.) The real key is deduced (by real musicians) from the actual structure of the tune - which leaves a worm like me with my 'bum oot the windae', if I may use a colloquialism from North of the Border...

No arguments from me - if I use an automagic chord generator to add simple chords, the result does very strongly suggest that it's in Amin. As a general rule, I'm not competent enough to assign a key sig. with any confidence, but I'm increasingly uneasy with some of the key sigs. I do see in tunes posted on the internet...

A somewhat naive suggestion, but have you tried simply transposing the whole thing up by one octave (so the key is unchanged)? I just did this, and looking at the score, it looks as if it would 'work'. I haven't tried it because it's 5am here, and I don't want to wake the neighbours. Here's the ABC code I ended up with... X:1 T:The Gael M:6/8 L:1/8 Q:3/8=90 R:Jig K:Ddor | ~A3 fed | edc dcG | ~A3 fed | edc dcA | | ~c3 ~e3 | gee ede | ~c3 ~e3 | gee ede | | ~f3 fef | gff fed | ~e3 ede | gee edc | | d3 dcd | fed edc | ded dcd | fed edc |

[1] Lucky man - I came late to the game, and being realistic about it, am never going to be a competent 'on-the-fly' sight reader... [2] Yes, but I think I'm right in saying that ME's program doesn't supply full harmonic tablature (if I can call it that) as illustrated in Steve Moore's OP. It's 'melody-only', I think. My earlier post was merely re-inforcing Steve's point that it's hard work creating that sort of stuff. I was using different tabs (Mick Bramich) and different software (OpenOffice). It was a bit of a grind. I packed it in after doing ~50 tunes this way - the little grey cells just rebelled! I think it was easier doing the Bramich tabs than it would be doingSteve's full harmonic accompaniment, so hats off to him...

Thank you! Too much work for me! I think this was discussed here a while back when the consensus emerged that ABC didn't have the capability to do all those horizontal lines. I thought you might have uncovered a piece of software which did the job in one hit. I can add simple (melody only) tabs but I didn't bother in my post (up there somewhere ^^^) as I don't use GC's system, and the main point was to add the words for folks to look at... ___________________________________________________ Later edit: Yeah, I'd almost forgotten, I used this sort of approach myself a while back. I abandoned it fairly quickly - simply too much work. I ended up with something like the attachment (which uses Mick Bramich's tablature). This clearly comes from my 'transition' period - the score at the top has been run through an early program to automatically generate the chords. The pure Mick Bramich tablature at the bottom has been 'hand-crafted'. I think that example dates from 2018. bf.pdf

[1] I have one which was gifted me by (I think) a member of this parish some time ago. I believe they are known as 'lyres', because of the shape. I suspect it may be larger than the ones which came with Salvation Army 'tinas? [2] There is a mounting point on my George Jones Ab/Eb Salvation Army Anglo, though I don't quite see how it all worked because the mounting point is obscured by the hand-strap? Unfortunately, the two items don't match each other and I can't see an easy way to adapt either one to ensure an elegant mating of the lyre to the 'tina...🙁

An An afterthought. May I ask what software you are using to generate that tablature? Thank you

> Heard this on public radio, often as a song, a number of times through this holiday season... And here are the words... No tabs as I don't use GC-style tabs and don't want to confuse the issue... ddcwa.abc

Oh good - I thought I had 'invented' this technique ~4 years ago. It's nice that some-one who knows what they are talking about is recommending it. It works! I wonder, does the effectiveness of the technique increase with the speed of the finger-tap? (I'm a very slow tapper...)

If that's the case. have a look at this PDF. Posted by Gary Coover in (I think) 2014. There are more button numbering schemes there than you can shake a stick at. The system I use isn't there - because it wasn't developed till ~2015...

I think this may be available as a download at: https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_1-thWE5XRmsC

Nice! I didn't know about the 'R' abbreviation for !roll! Sounds good... ____________________ I also spent a few minutes experimenting with this, and comparing it with what EasyABC does. There's some similarity - in EasyABC ~ seems not to work at the very start of a tune (or some tunes, anyway), whereas R does. T (or !trill!) sometimes causes havoc within EasyABC, completely mangling playback. I've always got around this by replacing the T with a ~ which is really a 'quick-and-dirty' solution. Maybe I should try R instead...

The 'easiest' ways to add tabs are using 1) text annotations; 2) lyrics (w:) lines; 3) symbol (s:) lines. There are pluses and minuses for each approach, and all are to some extent 'messy'... The code below is an edited version of the code posted by John Wild, and uses method 2) which is my preferred option. Using '^' for pull can be replaced with '_' for pull, though this uses two w: lines for each line of tabs... X:339 T:Joy to the Person of My Love %A lightly edited version of a tune posted on concertina.net by user John Wild, 17 December 2023 T:17th cent. Scots song/air in Amin T:Tabs added using 'dummy' lyrics using w: lines M:4/4 L:1/8 Q:100 K:Amin %naturals (nominal key of C) |: "Am" a2 ef "C" g3 c | "Dm" defg "Am" e3 e | "Dm" dcBA "E" B3 A | "Am" A4- A4 :| w: R4^ R2 R3^ R3 R1 | R2^ R2 R3^ R3 R2 R2 | R2^ R1 R1^ L1^ R1^ L1^ | L1^ L1^ | ABTCGA |: "Am" ABcd "Em" e2 ab | "Am" c'a"G"bg "F" a2 ef | "C" g2 f/e/d/c/ "G" d3 c | "C" c4- c4 :| w: L1^ R1^ R1 R2^ R2 R4^ R5^ | R4 R4^ R5^ R3 R4^ R2 R3^ | R3 R3^ R2 R2^ R1 R2^ R1 | R1 R1 | ABTCGA |: "C" g2 ec "Em" g3 g | "Am" aAcd "Em" e3 e | "Dm" dcBA "E" B3 A | "Am" A4- A4 :| w: R3 R2 R1 R3 R3 | R4^ L1^ R1 R2^ R2 R2 | R2^ R1 R1^ L1^ R1^ L1^ | L1^ L1^ | ABTCGA

I have that LP too - it's a cracker...

I've used a soft tooth brush with some success - careful - the bristles in a soft tooth brush are a little 'harder' than those in a soft paint brush... Afterthought: ...which, of course, has never actually been used as a tooth brush...🙂

Thank you for that clarification! I suspected that what you have said might be the case... These chord generators are a mixed blessing - they are great for a numptie like me who can't reliably create legitimate chord sequences, but they do sometimes produce what are clearly slightly wacky results. They can be quite useful for detecting (and then correcting) slightly off-colour ABC code - an under-/over-full bar, or incorrectly coded triplet will often sound distinctly weird when played back with added accompaniment chords - however awful the chords may be in themselves... The generators are not well-documented - using them is a bit like cutting a cake with a blunt knife in an unlit cellar, while blindfolded and wearing boxing gloves...