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4to5to6

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  1. Hi Malcolm, I still think the serial is okay. They took the time to re-glue the logo from the baffle to the bellows paper so it makes sense that they would also transfer over the serial. Trish, please take it a part again and gently pull the reed pan out. The serial number will be stamped into the wood frame. It is also stamped inside the action box but this can be trickier to reassemble, Just put your finger in the reed pan pull hole and the reed pan will come free. As I recall the label said By Her Majesties Letters and Patents, 20 conduit Street so pre King Edward (Jan, 1901) John
  2. A very similar concertina is on eBay right now with serial No. 1352, ledger dated 1847 (so the serial numbers really are all over the place). Not a lot of details and no mention of reed material. Bone buttons. The opening bid is £600 but no bids and it ends today. It's a UK only auction. Box is the standard vertical wood type similar to what Lachenal used. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271919591004
  3. Thanks Wolf. Just dreaming I guess. You are right, the fact is, as much as I would like a TT, availability and price make it impossible anyway. I have no choice but to stick with 48 keys and just see how far I can take it. Lite weight and response are the advantages of a treble as well as availability and lower cost so what's not to like! Contentment! On the music side, I've been getting into playing scales in double note octaves, a bit of a challenge on the EC. Figured out a new tune today... Tabhair Dom Do Lamh... one of my favourites! I hope to play it for a certain wonderful lady in my life soon! Thoinot Arbeau Bransles tomorrow maybe. I love 1500s music. As long as I'm busy and having fun, I'm happy! It will take me years to master the treble anyway if ever I even can. Action and response is really bad on what I have though which is slowing me down... not that I have to play super fast all the time. Can barely play Danny Chapman's Rat In Bed waltz even without the bass counterpoint. I find bellows control is still the big challenge... It's an art to play smooth and even but it would be ease if the keys all responded the same! Getting there. I already know the tunes from playing the whistle for years... Tunes are in my head... just have to get them out! Again, I'm really only just the bass player anyway! It's great to be out of the basement for a change.. into the sunshine of the upper octaves. John
  4. I've been involved in music and the music business nearly my entire life. Here's the common expression that I have always heard: "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where pimps and thieves run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." attributed to Hunter S. Thompson I must say that it is sure relaxing to play the concertina... if I can just find a decent one at a decent price... I will say no more!!! A lot of guys like Robert Pich, David Robertson, Chris Algar, to name only a few have been an awesome help! I've searched (harassed) the world! But... are these musical instruments or antiques? Maybe both! I'm finding out. When I come up with my $500 carbon fibre model that sounds smoother than an Aeola, with unbelievable action, lite weight, even response, speed, balance and dynamics.. and with an indestructible bellows also made of modern materials so that you can leave to whole thing in the back of a boiling hot car all day... look out! Maybe I'm a dreamer... but... Don't worry... Right now I'm only in it for the joy of playing a tune. To me that's priceless! I'm flat broke and still trekking along with my completely unrestored and out of tune but awesome bone button Lachenal. No cash right now, but I feel like the richest guy on earth discovering what can be done with this wonderful instrument!!! I'm just a musician therefore no beans to count... Give me a gig! John
  5. Thanks Malcolm. That is awesome. I have it bookmarked. The closest two I could find to 12310 is: 12317 - C1053, Page 8 - Nov, 1864 12319 - C1053, Page 9 - Dec, 1864 So if the serial number is correct lets just call it a circa 1864. Am I right? I am still learning. I went through a lot of serial numbers for fun and there is a lot missing. Interesting. John PS. I was just offered an old unrestored Wheatstone today for $200 CAD. I don't want to rip anyone off so maybe it will be my turn to do my own research tomorrow. Could it be a TT Aeola!!! Amboyna burl! Tortoiseshell! One can only hope. Thanks again Malcolm. You saved me a lot of time.
  6. I don't think the case is original to this concertina. Just a guy feeling from looking at Very nice case though. Please check the serial number. An interior photo of it and the reeds would be nice. You said steel but are the reeds two screw or riveted? The indexes for these years were not sequentia so a pain but it should be in there somewherel. I think I found serial 12313 with date 1864. If I have time tomorrow I will page through a few hundred pages and try to find it... reminds of when I genealogy research many years ago, Please add the bellows photo showing the the Wheatstone logo that has been glued to a bellows paper. Very nice they saved it. I could be put onto the end again with a little TLC. Very nice concertina. Has it ever been tuned? Pristine, untouched reeds will raise the value. Thanks, John
  7. I'm not surprised. Thread is getting too cluttered. It took me over an hour to try to put together what I did. I'll dig through it all again tomorrow. After 11PM my time and I'm off to bed. What's a bean counter? An accountant maybe? Obviously not with all my typos, errors and omissions! I'm a musician, can't you tell? Don't answer that!!! I've nearly made my decision and just about abandoned this but thought I had better finish it off at least the best I can in hopes it can help someone else in the future. I'm either going with a tenor-treble if I can find a decent one or will possibly get a new one built or else I will just stay with a 48K treble for the responsiveness and light weight and then get a secound instrument, probably a baritone or a baritone-treble, whatever overlaps the best. Actually... Why not? I'm also going to add in the note ranges as well: C4 is middle C Treble - G3 to C7 Tenor-Treble - C3 to C7 etc. I find this stuff interesting and very helpful! I can't thank everyone enough for all the input. Let's add some more Lachenal's to the list: New Model, Edeophone, Paragon, Inimitable, Excelsior, etc. please. John
  8. How do you get around the taxes? Can I get concertinas into Canada tax free from he UK? Is there a trick? That would be nice
  9. Metal does not become noticeably less springy when cold. There is the Ductile to Brittle transition (DBT) temperature which I believe is something like -50C but I am sure this would not apply unless you are in the north poll! I wonder if the reeds would all snap at this point? Scary thought!!! The original brass Lachenal springs are not the greatest and I have had three break on me. Until they broke, they felt fine. Only sticky when it's cold you say? You may have some old lubricant on the keys that is not cold friendly. You may just have to do a re-bush. Springs are a bit trickier as they have to placed correctly and tensioned properly for the action of each key to feel responsive and correct. I have to do a complete respring one day because of the broken ones. Jump in off the deep end...
  10. I haven't tried it on a concertina but use Protek Prolube on piano key pins. Metal and felt... should be the same thing. Do some research first please. Try on one of the worst keys then wait a few days. Spray into a small cup then use a Q-tip to apply. There's also "PTFE powder" which is applied with a small brush.
  11. Still missing: No. 22 treble - metal ends No. 6 treble - raised ebony ends No. 11 tenor-treble - raised ebony ends No, 14 baritone - 56K (have 8in./203mm) no weight Lachenal New Model Boyd treble - 48K (presume 6-1/4) Please look over list at end, Have I missed anything?
  12. A summary. Did I miss anything? I've highlighted the missing models in bold. Please provide info if you own one of these instruments. pm me if you want to remain anonymous. - No. 17. treble Aeola 6-1/2in, 3lb-6oz (165mm, 1540gm) - No. 19. tenor-treble Aeola 7-1/4in, 3lb-7oz / 3Lb-10oz / 3lb-13oz (184mm, 1559gm/1644gm/1730gm) - No. 22. treble metal end - No. 11a. tenor-treble metal end 6-1/4in, 2 lb-15oz (159mm, 1318 grams) - No. 6. treble raised ebony end - No. 11. tenor-treble raised ebony end - No. 14 56K Baritone-Treble 8in (203mm) - 64k Baritone-Treble 8-3/4in, 4lbs-6oz (222mm, 1969gm) - No. 4a 48k treble 6-1/4", 2lb-11oz (159mm, 1221gm) - Lachenal Boyd New Model 48K - Lachenal Boyd New Model 56K 163mm AF, or a tad over 6-3/8 - Lachenal RE BB MR treble 6-1/4in., 2lb-10oz) (159mm, 1180gm) Other considerations affecting feel/weight: - Smaller instruments (of the same quality) are usually louder, react faster and have a greater dynamic range. - Availability (tenors are rare) - has it been recently serviced/tuned? - fast response can make a larger instrument feel smaller - Every instrument should be assessed individually - position of thumb and finger rests make a big difference - Aeolas have better dynamic range, model 21& 22 bark out better - 48 key tenor-Aeolas react considerably better than 56 and 64 key TTs, but run out of air faster. - Aeolas come from ultra quiet pin-hole to screeming 48 key metal-ended treble - and anything in between, depending on end-material, fretwork-design, reed-length and period. - consider TAM reeds - tipo a mano, aka "hand-finished" reeds - Boyd bowing valves can get in the way
  13. Very nice looking vintage concertina Trish. I'll have to look more tomorrow but looks it like 12310 is a an 1864. http://www.horniman.info Probably in Wayne 1053 somewhere. Very clean looking. It's interesting how they stuck the Wheatstone logo to one of the bellow's papers. Very nice touch actually. They usually discard the logo when the baffles are removed. Let me know what you want for it. I might just have to start my own little collection of Wheatstones. Is this how it starts? First a few brass reed Mahogany trebles and then one day I am starring at my book case full of amboyna and tortoiseshell Aeolas!!! Post a few photos for everyone to see. John
  14. Yes... I like Adrian's sound clip! Very nice. Edited.
  15. Thanks Adrian. I enjoyed your recording. Great feel!
  16. Yes... I agree... practice, practice, practice... Thanks Robert for the good advice. I'll be patient. I'm playing two or three hours a day wearing out my chepo unrestored bone button. I can't wait until I get the restored 48K RE Lachenal from you... A big upgrade at a great price!!! Thanks. First big performance in less than two weeks! Wish me well. I do need those lower notes... It's my bass background I guess. I just finished memorizing and fully transcribing a song by Danny Chapman. It frustrates me that I can't play the low notes like it is written as Danny uses a TT. I'm rearranging it for 48K treble but it's just not the same. Here's the YouTube link: https: m.youtube.com/watch?v=b1VW2HEZzbs If anyone wants the MIDI file or sheet music for it, PM me and I'll email it to you. You can help me with the rearrangement for treble if you wish. Thanks, John
  17. Any updates on restoration? I listen to your YouTube video and it sounds great? Thanks. I am searching for a TT now and would definetely consider a New Model. Thanks for the info. John
  18. I've read the bowing valve patent... as I recall, comparisons were made to using the valves and bellows like bowing a violin. They are different than air valves as on side works on draw and the other side on push... most are converted to act like regular air valves as I guess they never really worked. I've always wanted to try one out since first hearing about them. David Robertson has an ET Boyd in his restoration queue right now and had my name on it for a few days realized I have no use for extended treble notes and now I know I need the lower notes instead. I think David gave me the size and weight and will add it to the list early next week.
  19. Yes, I remember asking Chris Algar about Boyds once and he said that he has never seen a Boyd Aeola but they could exist. The Boyds were on there way by the time the Aeolas arrived. I've always wondered if there were tenor-treble Boyds??? When I was researching Boyds I too mostly came across extended trebles that are the same size as the regular trebles. I just about bought a 48K Boyd once but thankfully it didn't work out as I'm now convinced I need a tenor-treble. They may be a bit better due to better reeds and select craftsmen building them but after a 100 years of use and possibly abuse, a pitch change to A440 and a few tunings after that, there is no guarantee of any difference at all. I agree. For example, a Lachenal Boyd is just a New Model with a custom end plate. I could use a few measurements, serials, etc of specifically some different year 48K treble Aeolas if anyone has the time to measure theirs up. Thanks, John
  20. Thanks Ceemonster. Lots to chew on. Give me a day or two. I'll search myself but if you come across the thread on Boyd acoustics / small concertinas being louder, let me know please. I will read up on the TAM reeds. Very interesting. Down the road, but is there a English system baritone that uses TAM reeds? Many thanks!
  21. Wow! I think you guys really said it good. This explains a lot about why smaller instruments generally are more responsive everythung being equal. I guess it's just a matter of getting used to the instrument you are playing. Reed pan design, dampening affect and resonance... that could be an interesting topic! I don't think I can add more or have to but I like to think in terms of extremes to make things easier to visualize. In this case, the accordion versus the concertina. When pressing both wirh equal pressure, the larger accordion would have less internal pressure. PSI (pounds per square inch)... therefore square inches high, pounds low), with the exact opposite in the smaller concertina (small sq inches, high pressure)... so the smaller the instrument, the higher the internal pressure. It's interesting... I was reading a few weeks ago about the difference between accordion and concertina reeds... As I recall, accordion reeds have straight walled slots where the tongue vibrates while concertinas have tapered slots. This affects the tone, reaction time of the reeds, etc. The point here is that accordions reeds are specifically designed to work under low pressure and to reduce air consumption which is a big concern when there is multiple reeds per note. Comparing two concertinas, both with concertina reeds, the larger concertina would have less internal pressure so would have to be squeezed harder in order for the reed to speak the same. I have no experience wether this is a good thing or not but imagine it would limit the dynamic range. There obviously must be a much different feel. I'm fairly new to the concertinas but from playing other instruments including the Irish whistle for years I learnt how to listen to and control the resonance of the notes. By here's a sweetly spot where the notes ring out. With a concertina, I can feel it and hear it when the reeds are really speaking. They just ring like a bell. I love this tone. For the same reason I love adding in those low harmony notes toy arrangements and feeling the notes swell and blossom as I'm playing. This is tricky compromise sometimes though because it takes a different feel (pressure I imagine) to make the larger bass reeds ring out than the the smaller melody reeds. I'm still learning how to control the concertina bellows. It sure is fun learning! I think this is another reasons I especially like listening to arrangements using the tenor-treble. In my limited experience it seems the 48K treble to be the best size based on this feel of the reeds at the extreme ends. Of course I'm basing this on my entry level instrument. The question is would I have the same feel with a tenor-treble. What does a baritone feel like when playing? I really want those few extra lower notes a tenor-treble offers and would imagine the slightly larger instrument is designed physically larger for more reasons than to fit in more reeds. Is the higher register compromised though? I was also reading about how the larger Boyd's were designed to be the same size as the trebles. It would seem this would be a compromise on the tone but the Boyds seem to be highly regarded. And on and on and on... All interesting stuff... a lot goes into the design of these wonderful little boxes we all love so much!
  22. Thanks Geoff. That should read "used to it". Ha ha ha! Funny guy! Thanks for the John Nixon insight. And yet more to research! Will this ever end?!?! Any insights on " The Flight of the Bumblebee - The Fayre Four Sisters"? Sylvia Fayre was unbelievable! I didn't think a concertina could ever react that fast!!! And no MIDI in those days! They did cheat a bit by getting special concertinas made that would play entire chords with the pressing of only one button! So much for staying on topic!!!
  23. Thanks Conzertino (Robert). I was thinking exactly the same thing... I understand one of the advantages of the slightly larger tenor-trebles is it's slightly larger bellows/air flow. One of the biggest challenges I have is bellows control and so I am experimenting with keeping both ends always on my knee (some use a large elestic on the bottom side to help) and then using small movements in a fanning motion versus long extensions and big gulps of air. I'm still experimenting but it seems a larger bellows would allow for lower pressure and air flow with less movement making smaller fan movements more practical. I understand in the early days 4-fold bellows were standard and look at the music they were playing. Amazing! Thanks again for the very helpful insight. John
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