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Everything posted by 4to5to6

  1. I have been contemplating building a number of different wooden ends to fit my model 22 metal ended treble. That way everything will be consistent except the different ends. Also thought of trying different fretwork patterns including the early Aeola dot & comma pattern while I'm at it. I've down the CAD drawings, just need the time, money for materials and a place to work. Maybe one day. You know... I don't really understand how the ends affect the sound as it's a total mystery how the reed generated air vibrations even travels through a concertina. For example, with two sets of reeds on an English, why are there reed pan chambers only on the outside of the pan? Wouldn't this chamber only be active on press when the air inside the bellows flows through the inside reed, pulsates or cuts up the air flow causing a tone, goes through the valve then into the chamber and finally out through the open pad hole and out the fret work. But what about on pull when the air flows inward? Does the sound still go outward? Probably a dumb question but it appears it does and so a total mystery to me! I've always wanted to make some models to experiment with how the sound travels through then start doing experiments with chamber sizes, pad hole sizes, reed scaling, etc... even how the thickness of valve material affects the tone. I've asked this a few times with conflicting answers. Probably getting off topic and maybe should be in a new thread but your comments on Britannia metal got me thinking about it again. Maybe someone could explain it quickly and especially the affects of different valve thicknesses and stiffness. Why are shallow reed pans louder? What about mahogany reed pans? And this is all apart from the different types of reed material which radically affects the tone. It would awesome to be able to go back 90 years and pick the brains of one of Wheatstone's master builders. Wouldn't that be something?!!
  2. Thanks Geoff I often wonder why the more "hard use" an instrument experiences, the better it sounds? Your 315xx examples fall nearly right in the middle of 1927. 31536 dates Aug 26, 1927 http://www.horniman.info/ 1927 = 31332 - 31773 31000 = Feb 18, 1926 31999 = Nov 5, 1928 Interesting.
  3. 4to5to6

    For Sale

    Donald, does the one you were playing fit the description of the one for sale? Any photos? Is it possible to have two Wheatstones with the same serial?
  4. I wholeheartedly agree. The instrument must fit into the mix. What sounds great as a solo instrument may completely get lost in an Irish session for example. So "The Best" is very subjective. 1927 serial numbers range from 31332 - 31773. Geoff, what made the 1927 ones you had so good? Was it the tone? Responsiveness? Balance between treble and low notes? Was there anything that stood out in the design, materials, workmanship, etc.? Maybe the reed scaling was different? What was going on in the history of Wheatstone around 1927? Off the topic... What is the range of your 1927 Baritone/Treble and how many buttons does it have? What model # is it? Serial maybe so I can look it up?
  5. 4to5to6

    For Sale

    Wow! Great price for a fully restored Aeola. Any chance of posting some photos?
  6. What is the Wheatstone Golden Age or Golden Era all about? I was told this was 30xxx to 32xxx (1924 to 1933), others say 1900 to 1930. Some strongly object to this narrow of range and others insist it is exclusively only 31xxx instruments. I know every concertina is an individual and so it depends strongly on current condition, the reed tuning (re-tuning) condition / skill, the voicing, whether it is played in, air tightness, bellows condition, etc. etc. and I certainly agree that an older less popular instrument can be much superior to a rarer more expensive one. There is collector's antique value vs. players instrument value. Tone quality and even volume, dynamics and responsiveness can all be subjective. It seems the musical quality of an instrument is hard to define but most agree that you can instantly tell when it's there. You just know it! The instrument speaks out and is expressive. You connect with it. So is the Wheatstone Golden Age about reed pan design, action design, materials, quality of workmanship, etc. etc. or is this a collector's thing? All things being equal... What makes these instruments superior? This is probably not an objective thing (or is it?), but more of an opinion thing. I see this phrase a lot so have to ask... What is the Wheatstone Golden Age and when was it?
  7. Thanks Michael. Very nice arrangement and wonderful instrument as well.
  8. Interesting and helpful discussion. Thanks! I am curious to know what tuner or tuner software you use so I can check the overtone harmonic's frequencies and amplitudes. John
  9. I understand that the pitch of the 3rd and 5th overtones can be adjusted to match correctly to the fundamental when tuning a reed (the inharmonicity). This is achieved by adjusting the profile of the reed rather than just filing the base or the tip to lower or raise the overall pitch. The reed tongue vibrates in a figure 8 pattern if not filed flat. All this shows up in the overtones. Problem is... there are plenty of tuners that show the root frequency and some that have built in spectrum analyzers like TonalEnergy and others that show multiple notes at once like Dirks but what about the actual frequency of the 3rd and 5th overtones! Does anyone know of a tuner that show the frequencies of the fundamental, 3rd and 5th? Amplitude of the overtones would be nice as well. I was once told that 6 out of 10 concertina suffer from reed vandalism! I want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Thanks, John
  10. I am interested if you decide to ever sell. I have been searching for a TT since I started playing and live in Canada so please keep me in mind. I would have a very special purpose for this instrument! Thanks, John
  11. Temperaments are tuned by counting the beats. One easy way to do this is to set a metronome to 105 and count 4 beats per tick, then you will be counting 7 bps (105x4=420), (420/60 = 7). Set the metronome to 120 and count 4 beats per tick for 8 bps. Set the metronome to 136 and count 4 beats per tick, that is 9 bps. Etc. To answer the OP's original question... This method may also may be used to calculated A=440 or even old high French opera pitch A=453. As a side, we could even use 60 or 50 Hz AC hum today as a reference these days. The temperament reference octave is then tuned using third, sixth and fifth intervals, tuning them to specific beat rates. The fifth and fourth interval for later used for testing. You can do this the other way around of course. I digress again... Still, the biggest mystery to me is reed inharmonicity! Piano strings have a fixed inharmonicity based on the length of string, string material, bridge design etc. so that the stretch or leveling can be easily predicted and the stretch tuning of each string calculated using software. I use TuneLab. Problem: A free reed tongue's inharmonicity is controlled by the profile shape of the tongue which is varied while filing it. Wanted overtones are tuned and enhanced, while unpleasant overtones are suppressed. I have yet to find any info on how to file a reed to adjust the pitch and amplitude of it's harmonic overtones. John
  12. Since this has gone almost totally off topic, (I like the duscussion and I am learning a few things) whenever temperaments are mentioned I like to recommend the book: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care by Ross W Duffin Reed scaling is also a fascinating topic. Many concertinas will use the same reed frame size for up to 7 different notes to save money while some manufacturers (Wakker for example) will use a frame size for only 2 notes. I've tuned many pianos over the years and first started by counting the beats of the overtones. I am just about to begin tuning concertina reeds and while I understand much of the theory and have enough experience to know what a good concertina should sound like, I have no idea how to physically profile a reed tongue. The best wisdom I think will be, at least at first, to just copy the existing profile, then experiment and just hope I don't ruin too many reeds. The timbre of an instrument is a mostly a result of the number of overtones and the amplitude of overtones. This is why a flutte, trumpet, guitar, concertina sound different even though playing the same note. inharmonicity is simply that the overtones can be out of tune with the fundamental. The stiffness of a string at the ends causes higher overtones to be flat. Pianos are stretch tuned to compensate for this. Higher notes are tuned sharper, lower notes are tuned slightly flat. Apart from scaling (the physical size of the reed tongue in thickness, length, etc.) I understand the profile of a reed drastically affects the number of overtones (harmonics), amplitude of these overtones, therefore tone... the inharmonicity of these overtones. I know that the reed must be filed perfectly flat or it can vibrate in a figure 8 pattern. Oops, must go... to be continued... John
  13. I greatly appreciate this Wes. I can't thank you enough! John
  14. They used a tuning fork as a starting point reference then compared similar harmonics counting the beats to get the correct temperment. Once the middle octave was in tune to the correct temperament, this was used as a reference for the rest of the instrument. Please look up "inharmonicity" and "Pythagorean comma" for more interesting info on this topic... I've heard that Lachenal supplied complete sets of in-tune reference reeds to sub-contractors who would then tune raw reeds to the reference reed pitches. The pitch of the reed out of the instrument is different from when it is in the instrument. The mystery to me is how they got the right profile of the reed tongue enhancing/suppressing certain harmonics and tuning these harmonics is the big mystery to me. See inharmonicity on Wikipedia. Thanks, John
  15. I'm still searching for C&S 01 no 01.pdf if anyone can help. Thanks, John
  16. Thanks Ken, It's sad to hear that George Salley has passed away. I'm sure it is ok if I was sent an issue. I'm reading The Wheatstone Concertina by Alan Atlas and he makes references to this volume of C&S, the one I don't have. The specific pdf file I am searching for is "C&S 01 no 01.pdf" if anyone can sendspace it to me. Let me know if you have this file and I'll message you with my email address and instructions. Much appreciated, John
  17. I am about 50 miles from Vancouver, BC. There is the young lady I sold my duet to of course. Rumors are there is a player in the Fraser Valley but I haven't been able to get a name yet. If you know of someone, please let me know. Probably best to PM me. John
  18. I started playing music in the mid 70s... I've always been interested in trying the concertina but it wasn't until about 3 years ago a friend of my uncle's brought a few over for me to try... all very inexpensive Anglos. It did inspired me to look around again and I found a Wheatstone Crane Duet in Newfoundland for a very good price. Unfortunately, I only learned a couple of pieces and it ended up on the shelf after a week or so. I sold it a few months ago and instantly had regrets so put in an eBay bid and 8 hours later I was the proud owner of a BB RE MR 48K English Lachenal which although in terrible condition was working fine after about 6 hours of tinkering. I've never stopped since and was soon offered an Excelsior in by far even worse condition (which I've spent well over 100 hours on restoring and still have a long way to go). I finally found an untouched, unrestored Wheatstone M22 which I play everyday and work on almost every day. It's a real gem! I'm having an amazing time both restoring and building up a repertoire at the same time. The English concertina seems to fit me perfectly, both working on them and playing them. I just wish I would of started in the mid 70s when they were a lot easier on the pocket book but it's never too late to start a collection if one is very, very patient. I would love to find an unrestored Aeola TT next, then a Baritone. There are no other player's around me but I am doing my best to change that. John
  19. I am searching for the PDF copy of Concertina Magazine I/I (winter 1983) which later changed it's name to Concertina & Squeezebox. I understand someone here on Cnet put the entire collection on a CD years ago. I only need the first PDF file. It can be easily sent to me through www.sendspace.com please PM me. Much appreciated, John
  20. Any chance of passing on what it sold for? I'm curious. PM me please.
  21. I wish it were a treble now that I've given up searching for a TT!
  22. Please correct me on this, I may be wrong again, but I believe all the ledgers containing info for serial numbers 21,354 (Dec, 1891) to 24,999 (May, 1910) are not available (roughly 3645 units over 18.5 years or 197 units per year). Doing some math (assuming constant production) makes 23102 circa 1900. I just made up this way of finding the year for the missing ledger years... there is probably a more official way: (Serial - 21355) divided by 197 plus 1892 = circa year (The John Method) ((23102 - 21,355) / 197) + 1892 = 1900 As a test: 21,353 - 21,355 / 197 + 1892 = 1891.9 Serial number 21,353 is Dec, 1891 25001 - 21,355 / 197 + 1892 = 1910.5 Serial number 25,001 is May, 1910 It works!!! Date also lines up with "Her Majesty" on the logo as King Edward started his reign in Jan, 1901. "No. 5" is most likely the model number but I'm not knowledgable enough to know all the features. I keep hoping Chris Algar will write all the vast knowledge in his head down on paper one day. You can look the model numbers up along with short descriptions in the old price lists available online : http://www.concertina.com/pricelists/wheatstone-english/ The two closest price lists are 1859 and 1915 so a bit off from 1900 but it should be a bit of help to you anyway. John
  23. Here's a serial label from 22551 that's really close. Just "No." added. I think it's awesome that they saved the logo and serial numbers when the baffles were removed.
  24. 23102... The plot thickens! I can't quite read all the writing. The experts on here will know. Isn't this serial one of the ones from the missing ledger? How about a close up of the label Trish? Now I'm curious I tried to enhance it but this is the best I can do.
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