4to5to6

Hi Wes, Thanks for all the help. I have a very nice Lachenal 49 key McCann duet, serial number 1663 in almost mint condition. Gut feeling is it is about C. 1900. Very clean... it even has the key for the case. Just needs a new case handle and will tune it to A=440. Please give me a circa year for it? Thanks.

Still available. I'm open to trades for a restorable English... Rock Childley, George Jones, Cramer, Simpson... preferably something unique.

I like the soft bag... I use one like this with a layer of foam in the bottom for day trips... otherwise I prefer the original cases... it's part of the vintage vibe... old wood hex cases with key latches for the mid 1800s instruments stored on their sides to prevent valve droop and the square leather cases for the early 1900s Aeolas, etc. I've built almost bullet proof flight cases out of plywood and resin with foam inserts and also used pelican cases but find them quite heavy overall; these are great for flying but generally I never let my box out of my sight.

Thanks Wes. Would you like photos or any additional info?

Could I please have the circa year for these: 25023 Lachenal Excelsior English 29815 Lachenal - Keith Prowse label English 39807 Lachenal Inimitable English Thanks

I got a small quantity of new BA threaded screws from Steve Dickinson as spares. They are most likely BA threads… BAtaps and dies are readily available on Amazon. As suggested, one can always tap it out slightly oversized and use a small metric or SAE bolt. Go slowly… backing out every quarter turn then forward again to clean the chips out… these taps easily break.

For years I used my eye to adjust the clearances. I developed a great feel for it. I found however, that if I looked at the reed even off at a slight angle, the tongue position appeared fine but sounding it determined it was off. Once the scope was perfectly set up to 90 degrees, looking perfectly straight down at the reed set on the flat glass, now I quickly see any misalignment with confidence. It was well worth the effort to construct the light box. I think tuning reeds is more of an art than a science… a little too much file pressure can misalign a tongue as often clamp screws are a bit loose or you can twist a very thin reed… I’ve even had a tiny filing burr hang over the side of a tongue on a very tight clearance reed and the scope instantly showed it up. A slight edge swipe with a fine file and the reed was perfect. It’s great for checking the gap for debris. It has become a wonderful, used all the time, tool. And I also agree that it would be great for removing slivers!

Free shipping anywhere in North America... within reason

Thanks wechruba. The reason I feel I need a camera with a light table is consistency. I am completely happy holding the reed up to the light and can clearly see the gaps with my naked eye but I find if I’m just off parallel a bit or the tongue is twisted, or a larger gap, etc. I can misjudge the position of the reed. I need to hold the reed fixed against a light table with the camera at right angle to get consistency. I’ve tuned and voiced lots of reeds and built a lot of reed tongues with very good results and measured up maybe 2000 reeds doing reed studies so know what good reeds look like all using the manual approach but think this will be a big upgrade. .

What about an HDMI camera with a $20 HDMI iPad adapter? Anyone have experience with this? I can easily fit it to a light table: https://amscope.com/products/uhm210-11

Regarding a 6x zoom reed gap inspection camera… I just started another thread to try and find one to be more consistent in setting Reed tongues. I am trying to find a 6X digital camera that is Apple iPad compatible (comes with an app).

Thanks. I’m still searching around too. I found a 5 to 500x Amscope camera but no app for an iPad. 6 times zoom is suppose to be ideal. There must be something out there… circuit board scopes, coin inspection… what else?

That’s interesting… I would have never thought of this one. Can you see the entire reed with it?

I’ve been searching all over the place for a 6X scope to inspect and align reed tongues with no success. Ideally, it would plug it into an older iPad mini. USB adapter cables are available but it must be Apple compatible with an available app. I can easily build a small light table for it and a stand to hold the scope if necessary. It seems like 6x magnification would be ideal. Any solutions out there?

Could I have the year for 53127 please? It is a rosewood ended English treble with brass reeds and metal buttons.

A big part in the voicing the instrument is selecting the correct valves. A heavy valve causes the reed to be quieter for example which can be a good thing with an over bearing low register. Setting the reed tongue gap lower will also have this affect. The trade off is with the responsiveness of the note. Also, even brand new valves may need to be changed a few times to find one that works correctly especially on very low bass notes. Who needs that blurpy sound with pops. I’m still learning myself mostly through trial and error but it is going well.

I use “Old Brown Glue” pushing in to the corners as Alex mentioned. It’s generally better to do the chamois gasket before the bellows end runs are done but not impossible to do afterwards. It’s important to use a removable glue in case you have to place a shim for a good seal.

Good thread... I'm also searching for a source of very thin valve leather to make small valves for very high reeds. Theses notes work without them but valves increase the air efficiency, chamber size consistency and reduce the breathiness of the note. All good things as long as volume and responsiveness is not reduced.

Still available. I'm open to offers but don't think I can go too much lower than this.

Reed voicing is going great… this is turning out to be a very fine instrument. Very well balanced. Great tone. I bought it as a project to pass it on but it may just end up a keeper. One thing I learned about making reed tongues (I first did it wrong of course) is to always thin down the tip first then work backwards creating a nice sweeping curve towards the root. Then bring the note down to pitch by working on the root rather than trying to bring it up to pitch by filing at the tip. I tried it the other way at first but then ended up twisting the tongue as the root was too thin to support the tip filing. I can do a reed tongue about 4 times faster by doing the tip first. I’ve noticed that the reed raises in pitch slightly once the steel work-hardens… the pitch also slightly changes with voicing the tongue curve and gap… that said, the reed pitch drops a few cents mounted versus on the tuning bellows due to chamber resonance (which is a good thing cancelling harsh harmonics)... I’ve now decided to tune to the exact pitch at first, then play the reed in for a few hours, then do the final touch up tuning later once the reed is stable. The third final tuning after this is done by ear, counting the interval beats to tune to the temperament. I use a variety of files… some comparatively course that really dig in to remove a lot of metal quickly, then medium, then fine. I’m also experimenting with Eze-Lap diamond abrasive hone files that use abrasives versus teeth. Strangely enough, a few tongue clamps screws have been loose and the reed tongue has shifted. I've had to reset multiple reed tongues in this instrument... I can't understand what was done to it. The reed profiles are all over he place. What a challenge... my apprenticeship in reed tongue profiling and setting and voicing! I can drop a 48 key treble down to A440 in 5 hours and do the final tuning and tweaking in about another 5 total but have spent probably 30 hours on this one so far. It's getting closer and closer and I'm getting fussier and fussier... much. much better all the time... but I just went over it after playing it for about two hours and 14 keys still need tweaking. I still need to do the final tuning after all this and it was at A440 when I started. I’m throwing all this all out there in hopes of some good feedback... I’m open to correction. I am figuring this out as I go. I di reverse engineer about 20 high end instruments before i started doing reed studies... handling about 2000 reeds... this helped. Lots to learn still… I used to tune pianos many years ago so understand temperaments and hear the beats… My wife has near perfect pitch but my main thing is tone. Concertinas need to be expressive and have great dynamics and balance so the bass doesn’t drown out the higher notes but there is a certain perfect tone that I personally love and go for… my 1927 amboyna TT that Steve Dickinson did has it… it’s a tone that is clear, not harsh at all, smooth and silky but still has a bit of grit when you dig in to bring you forward in the mix. It must be fast and snappy but still be able to do those long mournful notes. I’m experimenting with varying the reed profile to bring out this tone. Lots and lots to learn still. Advice is welcome. .

Thanks Chris. Isn’t that the truth! .

Spent yesterday building new reed tongues, re-profiling damaged tongues, tuning and voicing as well as experimenting with different valve thicknesses. The biggest problem was the tongue profiles… the tip and the root were ground down on the worse ones leaving a thicker hump in the middle which made the reed unresponsive and harsh sounding. Reed tongues were often ground on an angle or notches left that had to be smoothed out or the tongue replaced. Once this was removed leaving a flat or slightly concave tongue, the responsiveness came back and harshness went away. Still another day or two to make it perfect while playing it in for a few hours in between tunings but I’m really encouraged that this is actually going to work out just fine. Definitely a challenge… it is so much easier if the reeds are untouched so you can just match the existing profile. i know some use Demels to tune and remember coming across this suggestion in a 70s magazine. I personally would highly discourage the practice unless you are very confident in how you approach it. I was once told that 40 percent of concertinas have been butchered in one way or another. You can’t beat a flat file or a very low profile half round on small reeds IMHO… no edge notches or gouges, easy to keep flat so you don’t file on an angle or taking off an edge, easy to rapidly remove material or go slow. Nice even swooping profiles. File across at a 45 degree angle so there are no stress lines that could start a crack, etc. The weight of the valves has a large impact on the volume and responsiveness of the reed as well. I had to leave a few valves off on the highest reeds or leave part of the hole slightly uncovered even though this could cause air inefficiencies or inconsistent chamber sizes affecting harsh harmonic cancellation and the fine tuning due to variable chamber size but found no way around it. Maybe there is an ultra thin leather I need to find to make these smallest valves out of. A thicker valve on the lowest notes balanced overbearing bass reeds although slightly decreased responsiveness. I’m still learning on this one as well so the jury is still out. The key ingredient is patience. If I started feeling rushed, I had to just walk away and work on something else. Thanks for everyone’s inspiration and advice. I’m now confident this is another hurdle soon to be overcome. 😊 .

127 was a typo. 12.7 microns equals roughly 0.0005 thousands of an inch. I’m in Canada and even though we switched to the metric system in the 70s, most machinists tools, lathes, etc. are still in inches. Sorry for the confusion… I was just trying to be more internationally friendly… obviously being very badly at it. “There are 40 (roughly) thou to a millimetre and 25 microns to a thou.” I’ll try to remember this Chris. I think I mentioned that I reversed engineered the reeds on maybe 20 or so of the best Aeola Wheatstones that I could get access too. I still own many of these concertinas and they are absolutely wonderful. These are mostly golden era amboyna, tort, gold ends, etc… the cream of the crop but also concert level from the mid 1800s when steel reeds were just staring to be used. I think that I also mentioned that the reed gap does not seem to be the critical factor in the performance of a reed as I have seen and heard reeds that I would probably reject visually yet sounded and played wonderful. My question to those with much more experience than I is what are the design factors that make a good reed? There is the tip, the belly and the root closes to the clamp… the pitch is determined by the length, width, thickness of the reed, etc…. the ratio between the tip weight and thickness or stiffness of the root. What is the ideal thickness of the belly? When is it too thin? A nice flowing, filed curved profile seems to be ideal. Should the bottom surface of the tongue be flat? Bent down, than up to have the first third below the surface then slowly rising up? Metal seems to bend away from the surface that is filed??? Do you simply bend it back into the proper curve after filing? I can look at my charts and see what has been done as far as physical thickness and reed scaling and look at the spread sheet curves but I’m looking for advice on the theory for setting the reed by bending it and the ideal gap along the length is still a bit of a mystery to me. Also belly thickness… when is a reed tongue too thin? Some theory on the purpose and ideal thickness of valves may be helpful. I’m back home now so will be back at it tomorrow. Any advice on reed design, profiles, voicing, etc. will be most welcome.

I measured the shoe opening width and subtract the measured width of the reed at the same location. Small high quality reeds were commonly under 0.0005” (12.7 microns)… A piece of paper is 0.004 (twenty times this) so the gap is really unmeasurable by usual methods.

I have always found that the better the instrument, the easier it is to work on. I like the tiny piece of magnet idea. New reeds are easier to set as you have a piece of reed hanging out the end to use as a handle before snapping it off.