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4to5to6

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  1. 4to5to6
    Are any of the relatively less costly vintage instruments available in a 56 key tenor-treble? I am getting mixed reports on what tenor-treble models I should be searching for on a limited budget. Did Wheatstone or Lachenal make a simple rosewood ended, bone buttoned, steel reed in a TT compass for example? Please give me some suggestions so I can focus on some specific models. This could cause some debate (valid discussion but not here please) but I am not interested in instruments with accordion reeds. I also much prefer a vintage Lachenal or Wheatstone as they will keep their value which is very important to me as this instrument wil have to be sold when I have the extra to trade up. Right now, I have a treble tthat is very basic with bone buttons, rosewood ends, steel reeds and could easily get by with a similar TT while I save up. Please advise.
  2. 4to5to6
    I just listened to the CD by John Nixon - Just A Little Jazz. He plays treble, baritone and contra bass English concertinas on the CD. Now I want a baritone next after the TT! Awesome tone! I would loose a lot of money if I was a gambling man as I would swear that many of the tracks were played by a clarinet or a saxophone. Amazing tone! I am struggling with a bit of a bad habit with the hand that holds the free end of the concertina while playing. I tend to catch myself supporting the instrument with not only the little finger and thumb but put two fingers on the slide instead of one. I can get away with this on certain keys by get tripped when I go for an accidental note and my finger is busy supporting the instrument. A bad habit trying to take hold but I am fighting it. My point here is that even my small, light weight 48 key bone button Lachenal has enough weight to affect me. I imagine one can get used tit Still compiling data. I could use some more serial/size/weight data on trebles please. John
  3. 4to5to6
    Thanks Stuart. I appreciate the insight and think I see what you are saying. To clarify, are you saying that you've observed a tenor-treble or maybe even a baritone-treble feel more comfortable than say a 48K treble? Please explain more. I could see this if the treble was set up very poorly but if everything was fairly consistent wouldn't the treble be more comfortable? I remember having a somewhat similar discussion with Wim Wakker over air flow, action etc. which may apply and will go back and search for that email. I know it is very important to have the action, air flow, reed voicing, etc. set equal on every key so the response of the instrument is fast and consistent. What do you think makes one concertina more responsive than another? I've been reading about reed pan design, cross bracing, sloped walls, etc. which I sure all applies. I guess that I may just have to take a trip to London after all and get Chris Algar to line them all up. Thanks, John
  4. 4to5to6
    Thanks Geoff. Some more data: An unrestored metal ended model 11A tenor weighs 3 lbs, 6 oz and is 6-1/2" ATF. Not bad... it's really too bad these are so rare. Here's quick summary of the compass (interval range) of some different models. Please check this over please and let me know if I have something wrong. Thanks. 48 key has roughly 3-1/2 octaves 56 has usually exactly 4 octaves (I have left out 60 and 64 key English concertinas due to rarity.) No. ??? piccolo concertina - no information No. 17 Aeola 48 key English concertina is from G below middle C to C, 3 octaves above middle C (the same as a violin). No. 8, 56 key extended treble is G below middle C to G, 3-1/2 octaves above middle C (four octave G to G). No. 19, 56 key tenor-treble Is C one octave below C to C, 3 octaves above middle C (four octaves C to C) No. 17A (11A?), 48 key tenor is C below middle C to F 2-1/2 octaves above middle C (roughly 3-1/2 octaves) No. 17, 56 key Baritone-treble is from G (first line on bass clef) to G (four lines above treble staf) No. 20, 48 key Baritone is from G (first line on bass clef) to C two octaves above middle C (3 octaves, 3 notes) I'll try to add what I have in sizes and weights and list the instruments in order from smallest to largest. I am still missing a lot but this way we can see where we are at. Thanks everyone for all your help. This information has already made my choice of instrument so much easier. John
  5. 4to5to6
    I have about £800 (1,600 CAD, 1,250 USD) saved so far. The great thing is that after a lot of struggle, I now know what I want / need. Thank-you every one on Cnet for your input. John
  6. 4to5to6
    Thanks Jenny. I appreciate the extra info. Best wishes! I hope you find a buyer soon. John
  7. 4to5to6
    Thanks Don, Send me a PM please with your number. I would like to chat with you. Yes, Robert Pich told me it's very important when importing a concertina into the U.S. or Canada to call it a "mini-accordion". "Concertina" to customs is concertina wire... a barbed wire with raisor blades attached to it used as a barrier... a restricted item. The customs code for a mini concertina is "HTS code 9205.90.15.00" "Private sale of one second-hand mini-accordion. Price as agreed £XXX GBP plus £XX GBP for insured postage HTS code 9205.90.15.00" would be a typical way of putting it. Thanks for the information. I'll contact Greg. John
  8. 4to5to6
    Hi wolf, the only concertina I have in my possession right now is a RE BB MR circa 1900 Lachenal (6-1/4" AF, 2lbs, 9oz??? from memory). It fails the hang test in 6 secounds, needs pads (leaks ands action is jamming), springs (3 replaced with safety pins), valves and felts (pop and flapping sounds). And it is horribly out of tune and at old high pitch. It was unbelievable when I got it with 11 reeds fouled, loose pads rolling around inside, etc. It took me 6 hours to get it as good as it is in playable but very poor condition. I started with a very nice 48K Wheastone crane duet with raised ebony ends a few years ago. I learnt a few songs on it but it never stuck. I sold it a while ago but had sellers remorse kicked in so I went on eBay and 6 hours later I had won the auction for what I have now. It was meant to be... I can't believe how much fun I am having with this instrument even with a few weak reeds, leaky bellows and jamming action. I'm convinced the English system concertina is a perfect match for me and so I'm saving up for a really good instrument. I want to buy one more instrument that will last me for life. It's been a tough choice and I don't want to keep promising restorers I will take their instruments and the back out. There are so many variables: Treble, Tenor, Baritone, extended treble, tenor-treble, baritone treble, 48K tenor, 48, 56, 60, 64 keys!!! Availability? Size? Weight? Metal ends, ebony ends, raised ends? Exotic woods? Then there's the whole thing of the Wheatstone Golden Age which "when" seems to be controversial (probably 29xxx to 32xxx (1920 - 1930) with 31xxx being the peak). And then to top it off, the £ to CAD$ exchange rate (1.94 ouch) and £40 to 60 shipping plus 12% taxes to get it into Canada. Again, I want to buy one more instrument; the one that will last me for life. I started this thread as I need more info. It's been really tough to focus in what to look for with limited information of features, etc. I though I had found the perfect instrument: untouched, unrestored, pristine 48K 1920 Aeola that I can get fully restored and into my hands for maybe £3000 and best, not have to pay for it until it is done in December. Still, that's the price of a decent used car in Canada so not a small decision to make Unfortunately, I am now thinking that I made a mistake to put it on hold as I am really into baroque and renaissance music and am constantly rearranging notes due to a lack of a few low notes. Current tune I'm working on is Rat in the Bed by Danny Chapman https: m.youtube.com/watch?v=b1VW2HEZzbs http: www.rowlhouse.co.uk/main.htm Danny uses a tenor-treble. I may be wrong but it seems that the treble can be compared to a violin and tenor-treble a viola. I was under the wrong impression that a tenor-treble is huge (got it confused with a baritone-treble) and so needed more information so started this thread. I haven't received enough info yet for it to be conclusive but it looks like a treble Aeola model 17 is 6-3/8, (don't know the weight) and a TT is 7-1/4 AF and about 3lbs, 13oz so not a really big difference. I am struggling with the current prices of the Wheatstone Aeola and so is it really worth it with my limited funds. As much as I would love a 31xxx Boyd model 19 TT Aeola or even one with amboyna ends (sorry, I'm day dreaming here), maybe I should get a 6 sided model 11a (56K TT metal ends) or a model 11 (as above but raised ebony ends) instead. Is it better to look for the lowest priced beat up abused Aeola I can find and really afford or spend the same and get the best model 11 I can find? Is a model 17 Aeola really a model 22 dressed up in it's Sunday best? I am certainly open to a really nice Lachenal as well like you have. But again is an Edeophone really a New Model just all dressed up? I've read through the Lachenal price lists as well but I can't even figure out where my own BB RE SR circa 1900 fits in. Excelsiors are very popular. I found your description of your instrument: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14590 Sounds like a very nice concertina! Cross walls in the reed chambers? Dome top versus flat top buttons, silver, glass, nickel, buttons.., more to contemplate! I should maybe add "button type" to the list (glass, silver / domed, flat, etc). Problem is that most likely the butyon type wasn't consistent even thought same model number as these were all semi-custom built instruments. I just wish Chris Algar and a few other collects would get together and write that long waited for book covering all this. I would be first in line to get a copy. John
  9. 4to5to6
    Thanks Geoff. This really helps. Awesome!!! A couple of questions... Please describe what your model 4a. (27264) is better? Is this an Anglo? I can't find reference to it in the price lists. Also, how would you describe playing your Model 14. 56K Baritone-Treble? Do find it heavey at all? This will really help me. Let me compliment you on this instrument as even by the toughest standards... it is right in the middle of the peak 31xxx Wheatstone golden era: 30xxx to 32xxx (1924 to 1933). I would really value your description of it's tone and response.
  10. 4to5to6
    Wow! What are the chances of that? Two siblings reunited!
  11. 4to5to6
    Thanks, I agree, tenors are not on my list because of rarity. I've only had one response so far. Thanks again Tom. Please! Can anyone else share a few details about a Wheatstone they have access to? 1. *** Serial number (then I can look up the model etc.) 2. Date of manufacture (if known) 3. Model # (if known, otherwise I can look it up) 4. *** Number of keys 5. *** Type (Aeola, treble, tenor-treble, extended treble, etc) 6. *** size across the flats 7. weight (if known) *** please include if at all possible, if not fill in what you can.) Data might not be in ledgers for some instruments but let's see how this works out. I am specifically searching for info on models: No. 17. treble Aeola No. 19. tenor-treble Aeola No. 22. treble metal end No. 11a. tenor-treble metal end No. 6. treble raised ebony end No. 11. tenor-treble raised ebony end but please don't restrict it to just these as I think it would nice to compile as complete s list (as possible). As a side, I am also trying to find out what the range of a model 12E is. It's a large Aeola with maybe 64 keys but that's all I know, maybe a tenor-baritone but that's a guess. Edited by 4to5to6, Today, 09:58 PM.
  12. 4to5to6
    I am (today) personally interested in models: No. 17. treble Aeola No. 19. tenor-treble Aeola No. 22. treble metal end No. 11a. tenor-treble metal end No. 6. treble raised ebony end No. 11. tenor-treble raised ebony end but don't want to restrict it to just these as think it would nice to compile a complete list (as possible). As a side, I am also trying to find out what the range of a model 12E is. It's a large Aeola with maybe 64 keys but that's all I know, maybe a tenor-baritone but that's a guess.
  13. 4to5to6
    Thanks Ken. That would be great!
  14. 4to5to6
    Thanks Jim, I will do the search for past data as you suggest. When I can collect size/weight/type etc. for even 10 or 20 instruments I will start compiling the data. Location and owner of the instruments will not be included in the list. John
  15. 4to5to6
    Thanks Tom, That's perfect.
  16. 4to5to6
    Thanks Wolf. I never considered that the same model could have different dimensions.. This does conplicate things a bit. Okay, good idea. Let's keep it to individual Wheatstone English instruments for a start. How about: 1. *** Serial number (then I can look up the model etc.) 2. Date of manufacture (if known) 3. Model # (if known, otherwise I can look it up) 4. *** Number of keys 5. *** Type (Aeola, treble, tenor-treble, extended treble, etc) 6. *** size across the flats 7. weight (if known) *** please include if at all possible, if not fill in what you can.) Data might not be in ledgers for some instruments but let's see how this works out. This could be interesting. It shouldn't take too many people chipping in to quickly see some patterns developing. What do you think? Did I forget anything? Add too much? John
  17. 4to5to6
    I've been searching for an hour comparing the Aeola English system Tenor and Tenor-Treble (model 17 and model 19) Which is right for me? I have the note range figured out but can't find anything specific on the size and weight comparison. Can soneone give me the size (across the flats) of both a 48K treble and a 56K tenor-treble Aeola please? Maybe a Model 22 too as well please. Actually... If this hasn't been done before, let's compile a chart comparing the different models. If it has been done please point me in the right direction or PM me for my email to send it to me please. I am mostly interested in Wheatstone but why not open it up. Please let's stick to English system though. Every few days I can put the info into a summary post. What do you say? Not the primary concern when choosing an instrument of course but it does come into it. I think this could be some very useful data compiled into one place. Please help Type (ex: tenor, tenor-treble, tenor etc,) Model # (ex: Model 17 for 48K treble Aeola etc.) Serial # (optional but especially useful if no model #) Number of keys Note range Features (ex: wrist straps, thumb strap to note position, etc.) Type of ends (ex: ebony, raised ebony, metal, etc.) Number of bellow folds Size (distance across the flats) Weight Thanks.
  18. 4to5to6
    Yes, sorry, above post edited to say Nov. 11, 1920.
  19. 4to5to6
    This is bazare. I am soon to get a model 17 treble Aeola serial 28628, built Nov. 11, 1920. It's in line to be restored so should have it about October. That's really close! Should we start the consecutive serial number club and attempt to fill in the gaps?
  20. 4to5to6
    I don't want to go back and forth on this. To safe guard myself, I always ask that I be sent an invoice, then I pay this invoice. I can then see the sellers information and besides then there is no confusion on who pays the fees, etc. What put up the red flags here was the phone number on the invoice did not match with the phone number on the directory listing. Maybe nothing, but worth checking into. I sure wouldn't mind if someone phone called me and asked me to push a few buttons on my concertina even if I didn't know how to play a note. I made it clear that I didn't expect her to play a song or anything like that. And I certainly wouldn't of sold some of my precious items to get cash if I was just tire kicking. I bent over backwards to make this happen and just by asking for a quick phone call the deal was instantly cancelled! I was certainly shocked to say the least!!! I wouldn't think that asking to make quick phone contact is changing the terms of a contract but maybe I'm wrong here. I was given until Friday to pay and that's what would of happened. I thought I was doing my part. This all seems so harsh to me!!! I went through a ton of grief to secure the funding on Saturday and this was well known. I was at first told it would not be held for me even though I offered to PayPal a $200 deposit to do so. I then bent over backwards and sold every thing I could to get the money and I ask for a simple phone call and it's all over!!! Harsh at the very least! The listing ended with no bids at 2750 and I was then asked multiple times to make an offer through Cnet which I did and it was instantly accepted. Again, I had this funding in place when the offer was made. I communicated what I had left to do... make a deposit on Monday, make a payment on my Visa, then wait for it to clear and then pay through PayPal probably Wednesday. I was told up to Friday would be fine and it would ship out Monday. I was really excited to get this concertina, maybe too much so. I think when red flags go up one should act on them. I acted on them. Sadly I can't see this working out even if everything is legit. I could go through eBay and if no other bids, then get it for 2750 I guess... but too many hard feelings now. And I've phoned and left messages at both phone numbers still with no response so in reality the red flags are still there. I don't want this to go back and forth. This is just too upsetting. I just want to play music, all this negativity deeply affects me. If I get a phone call from Jenny at her directory listed number and she knows nothing about the concertina for sale I will of course pass this info on here for others to see but other than that I guess that's it. John
  21. 4to5to6
    Thanks Robert. I appreciate your confidence in me. You are a real asset to the concertina community and have helped me immensely! Wow! This is a bit of a shock. I really thought this was a done deal. All that was left was a phone call from Jenny or for her to give me her number so I could call her. Through great effert, I raised the funds for these two concertinas. She knows this. I had the funds in place for sure or would not have proceeded. It was not one of the other. It was brutal on such short notice but I didn't want to pass up a 48 button Boyd as they are so rare. Seeing these comments here and this conversation on here is really hurtful to me. I am sorry, but I think most would agree that it would be foolish to send $2500 USD to a PayPal account with no verification whatever that the concertina even exists or that this is even really Jenny that is selling it. I don't think this is unreasonable. Times are tough. I simply can't afford unreasonable risk. Is it really wise for me to send money across the country with no contact information or verification? I don't believe there is any way to get my money back on PayPal as it's not an eBay transaction. Through directory assistance I tracked down Jenny G Hubert's home phone number and have now left her a message to contact me. Maybe everything is perfectly fine or maybe I will get a call saying she sold it years ago and doesn't know what I am talking about!!! If she contacts me through her home number than everything is on the up and up and I can proceed. Sadly, I see that she has now cancelled my PayPal invoice and relisted it again on eBay so I may just have to let this one go either way... all because I asked for a phone call! If I've done something wrong then I'm sorry. I was not even going to say anything until I knew for sure and maybe shouldn't even be writing this. By his is really upsetting to me. All my correspondence has been very open and respectful and I honestly do admire the legacy of Gene Hubert and would be honoured to play his concertina. John
  22. 4to5to6
    Looks like this concertina is going to travel 3000 miles and end up in Western Canada! I am sure that no one could possibly ever value this instrument more than I will! I will take great care of it. It will be my main instrument until I can afford and find a Boyd Wheatstone Aeola and with my little money that is not likely to happen for a very, very long time! But I am a musician and I will play this instrument with heart and soul! I have been researching the life of Gene Hubert. Wow! There are even YouTube videos showing his dances! He left quite a legacy. Thanks Jenny!
  23. 4to5to6
    This is my dream concertina! Perfect for loud outdoor playing in a band. It would be a big upgrade from my bone buttoned Lachenal. Sadly I am flat brook right now. Best wishes for the sale. If it doesn't sell quickly or you are willing to save it for me I can promise to purchase it from you late Sept. or Oct. Thanks, John (fernie_view).
  24. 4to5to6
    Wanted - 48 Button English To Learn On - West Coast Canada Or PNW, Seattle area. Edit: I am now actively searching for a Lachenal Edeophone 48 key with the large reed pan hole from the late 1920s. I am really enjoying the English concertina but my bone button instrument is in terrible condition and not worth getting professionally restored. I have been told that the Edeophone has the best balance of all the vintage concertinas for the type of music I want to play. It is very important to me that the steel reeds have never been tuned, that it is in old high pitch. The rest of the instrument can be rough as long as it is able to be restored. Please let me know if anyone has something like this or knows of one for sale. I prefer to buy locally in Canada but would certainly be open to getting the right instrument shipped from the UK or the USA. Thanks, John Message me through this forum please.
  25. 4to5to6
    I would be very interested in a photo of the action. Thanks.
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