I took up the English concertina about two years ago. I've been working pretty hard at it and am now at a reasonable post-beginner standard and can play most tunes I set my mind to at a basic level. I did a bit of research and chose the English over the Anglo because I imagined I wanted to play a wide range of different types of music and I thought the English would be better for this. As it turns out I've become mainly interested in playing Irish music. I'm now regretting that I didn't go down the Anglo route. I'm finding that other players of roughly my standard on the Anglo are playing with a much more authentic Irish sound. I've no trouble with the concept of the ornamentation (I was brought up in Ireland and I have a reasonable feel for the ornamentation which comes naturally on the whistle which I play a little) but I find it very hard to play naturally on the English.

I’m now considering several options:

1. Persist with the English concertina and work at it until I’m successful with Irish music.

2. Sell at least one of my two nice Wheatstones and start over again with Anglo.

3. Keep up the English concertina but complement it by taking up another instrument for Irish Music. I’ve been thinking in terms of a B/C melodeon. (However to be honest I don’t find the sound as appealing as the concertina.)

Has anyone had a similar experience or would anyone like to add their thoughts or advice?

Lawrence

Dangerous question, that. Yes, I would.

An "Irish" what sound? An Irish music sound, or an Irish concertina sound? The sound of the anglo concertina (as played by Irish traditional musicians) is not the only "authentic" sound of Irish music. If you want to sound like a Clare-style anglo player on your English, I can give you some hints on how to do it, but musically that's about like wanting your fiddle to sound like a mandolin. The English and the anglo, despite being similar in construction are very different instruments, and I think it's silly to believe the English should sound like an anglo. (That it can is another matter, which I'll return to.)

I play mainly English, though my anglo playing is gradually improving. My style -- including ornamentation -- when playing Irish music on the English owes more to fiddle and whistle styles than to anglo styles. Fiddles and whistles are not expected to have the "bouncy" feel of the anglo's bellows reversals, and the preferred Irish styles on those instruments tend to be smooth, with a minimum of tonguing or bow reversals. That is also a style to which the English is suited, so why not emulate it? If you want to, you can do frequent bellows reversals on the English, just as you can do frequent bow reversals on the fiddle or tonguing on the whistle, but that just imitates the anglo, not the Irish.

End of that sermon. What should you do?
Don't sell either of your Englishes, at least not yet.

First, you need to answer two questions: What do you want to sound like? (I won't ask you "why?", but you might ask yourself, and see if that prompts you to reconsider your answer.) And how do you learn?

Is it possible that the anglo players you've met sound more "authentic" to your ear not because of their instruments, but because of their training? These days there are lots of teachers, workshops, and even courses for learning to play Irish-style on the anglo, and those who get such instruction tend to meet and reinforce each other. What teachers or teaching materials have you had access to?

Wait! Before you give up on the English and switch to the anglo so that you can get good instruction, let me suggest that there are other options. If it's a particular sound you want, then you can learn a great deal by simply trying to imitate that sound. I've known more than one player of the English who makes it really sound like an Irish anglo. When asked how they learned to do it, they say, "I just tried to imitate the sound of the Irish players." I.e., they learned from imitating recordings, and discovered through trial and error how to manipulate the bellows and buttons to get the same sound. But recordings aren't the only way to do that. I have learned a great deal from attending classes for both Irish fiddle and Irish (anglo) concertina, and experimenting with ways to imitate the sounds -- the flow -- of the teachers' playing. Playing along with "the original" is a great help, because -- just like learning the notes of a tune -- you can feel where you sound the same and where you don't.

If you want to learn a fiddle style on the English, it wouldn't hurt to get a tutor on Irish fiddle, then copy the suggestions for ornamentation, dynamics and flow in bellows movement (not jusst reverals, but also pressure variation). If you want to learn to sound like an Irish anglo, get an anglo tutorial, then ignore the fingering, but copy the notes and bellows reversals. It will probably be difficult at first, but you should be able to get used to it. Then you'll probably feel that you don't need to reverse the bellows quite that often, but you'll be able to choose where to do it and where not to bother, and you'll probably learn that you can simulate that feel by just putting space between the notes and/or giving the bellows a little extra punch. (If you want to force yourself to copy the anglo's bellows reversals, you might even consider removing those reeds from your English (don't lose them!) -- e.g., the push F -- which aren't matched by a corresponding pitch+direction on the anglo. You'd be surprised at how quickly you can learn to play only those "notes" that make a sound.)

All the above has ignored the possibility that the anglo, not the English, may indeed be the right instrument for you. (I won't go into the duets here. From what you've said, I doubt that you'd find them better than either the English or the anglo for what you want to do.) I think it could be worth your while to try an anglo for a while, to see, but I don't think you should have to sell one of your Wheatstone Englishes to do so. If it turned out that the anglo wasn't "right" for you, you'd be in a fine pickle. Instead, you should try to borrow or rent an anglo for a while. If you really take to it, then you might consider selling one of the others.

Borrowing or renting, you ask? Where do you live? Maybe one of the local anglo players has an "extra" instrument they'd be willing to let you work with for a while. (Several individuals have learned to play on instruments I loaned them, and my own addiction really took hold when somebody loaned me a Lachenal English for 6 months.) If not, you could contact The Button Box or Homewood Musical Instrument Co. (Bob Tedrow) regarding their rental policies.

And don't give up the whistle. (You do know about Chiff and Fipple, yes?)

Jim,

Thank you for your very comprehensive and thought-provoking reply to my post. I really appreciate the time and trouble you've taken over answering my question.

To answer some of your questions, I live in Hampshire in England. I have easy access to Anglo teachers but not to English - I'm mostly self taught although I've attended quite a few courses and workshops.

What would I like to sound like? My ambitions are not too high. I'd just like to be able to sit down to play with some Irish musicians and not sound out of place. But I 'd also like to be able to do it without having to spend 10 times as much effort learning to get the right sound as an Anglo player would.

I think I'll try to follow your suggestion of borrowing or renting an Anglo if I can find a source in the UK.

Again, thanks for your help.

Lawrence

PS I won't give up the whistle - although I have to confess that my whistle playing has suffered badly since I started plaing the concertina!

Hi Lawrence,

I second Jim's idea to borrow or rent an Anglo before you do anything drastic, such as selling one of your English concertinas. Too many people have regretted selling an instrument they loved.

I love the anglo, but I have never tried an English. I'd like to try one, but I won't ditch the anglo.

Hope you find the sound you want so you can play with your friends.

Keep us posted.

Helen

Thanks Helen.

Maybe I'm wrong but I get the impression that more people start with English and then take up Anglo than vice versa. Is this other folk's experience?

Lawrence

I've started on the Anglo, Lawrence, and hope to pick up the English in a year or so. (my husband has a moratorium on me buying any more instruments until I can play the ones I have in public)

Hi Friends,
This is a very interesting thread and JIM has, as usual, given you a good and very detailed answer . I would add this. When my father was teaching me to play ( in the 1930's), he insisted that I spend a lot of time practising a Regondi excercise playing scales WITH A CHANGE OF BELLOWS DIRECTION FOR EACH NOTE. I can assure you that this proved to be very useful during the years when good separation was needed and although this doesn't exactly replicate the action that Anglo players MUST perform most of the time, it will help to perform according to JIM'S parable. Another item that might be worth considering, is the opening of the reed "gap" slightly. I don't recomend this unless you really want the extra volume that an Anglo generally produces. Low level volumes would be dificult with this modification. Good Luck. JOHN NIXON.

Hi, there is a lively debate going on right now at "thesession.org" with 60 replys so far about whether or not the English Concertina should be used for Irish Traditional Music. Just like this thread it is very interesting. I play ITM with an English tina and use a lot of bellows and variations on the push and pull to TRY and get the sound I want. I am learning fiddle and that has helped with the ornamentations on the tina. Plus I just ordered two diatonic harmonicas to carry around and play ITM and contra dance tunes. Don't ask where I find the time to do all this.

Come on Lawrence -- there are few enough English players around here as it is! I'm just starting out on English, so don't defect to Anglo and make me feel all lonely!


Steven

Keep in mind that you're querying a predominantly Irish music crowd here....

I started playing English first (despite having played button accordion for several years), and several years later moved on to (Hayden) duet.

I have only ever played Anglo (and love it

Cheers
Morgana

Yes go to thesession.org and look in the disscusion "English Concertina" (which I started by the way unseen122 there is the same as Unseen122 here) it is possible to play Irish style on an English don't switch.

Jim,

Did you really say end of sermon in your third paragraph?

Hi Lawrence,

Just a thought.........I never hear of anyone who plays Irish music on an anglo wanting to change to an English.

Yes, I play Irish music on an anglo and used to play B/C box. If you want to keep your Englishes then look around for a small box with a strong but *nice* sound such as the Castagnari Dinn. Boxes come in a range of sounds and I don't mean number of reeds or tuning........so maybe you need to go and listen to a few before going further and switching concertinas. Then if you still don't like the sound then I am afraid the concertinas with accordion reeds will be out too. So be prepared to dig deep in your pockets for an anglo.

Just for the record...I started with an accordion reeded concertina and I couldn't tell much difference from the Castagnari Dinn we have here, although our Salterelle Nuage does indeed sound different.

So my choice would be to check out the boxes first and then if Irish music is the only way you want to go I would get an Anglo. You will never be happy travelling around Irish sessions......or even Ireland......unless you *fit* in with an anglo........regardless of how an English can sound played in an Irish style.

Ok ok ok don't everyone bite my head off........as I duck instinctively

Sharron

>>I'm now regretting that I didn't go down the Anglo route. <<

Lawrence,
I think you should switch to anglo. You've already decided anglo would have been a better choice for you from the beginnning, so do it already and switch. If you want to sound like an Irish trad anglo player it's obviously best to play the same instrument. I'd do it ASAP. You can then take full advantage of various workshops for anglo, plus you'll be more welcome at any Irish trad sessions.

BTW, I play english concertina and like Irish Trad too. I have no strong interest in switching because I prefer the sound of an english concertina to an anglo. I've heard some great Irish Trad tunes played on english over the years at the NE Squeeze-in, and sometimes they even sounded a lot like an anglo, but Jim made a great point that the anglo & english are two different instruments. Trying to copy the sound of one with the other is possible, but is just going to add difficulty & frustration. Playing Irish trad on an english is a great idea if you let the instrument find it's own voice. I find that Irish trad articulations (ornaments) work great. If anything, the problem is that there are too many possibilities, and it's difficult to put limits on what to use. I found Frank Edgley's anglo tutor useful, and the new Grey Larsen tutor for Irish Flute & Tin Whistle is wonderful. I've been working on Simon Thoumire's one button rolls, which I love. Then there is all the obvious and not so obvious things that can be done better & easier on an english than any other concertina. Of course, then it's *not* going to sound anything like Irish trad on an anglo, but that good as it's a different instrument.
bruce boysen

No, that was after my third paragraph.

And I actually said "End of that sermon." Stay tuned for others.

Bruce, after reading the rest of your post, I wonder if you aren't hoping to benefit when he gets rid of his Wheatstone Englishes.

Don't worry, Steven, you're far from alone.

>>Bruce, after reading the rest of your post, I wonder if you aren't hoping to benefit when he gets rid of his Wheatstone Englishes.<<

Jim,
I wish! I can't afford to buy any more concertinas. I'm selling my McGee flutes to cover the cost of the Wheatstone tenor that I bought this past winter. Between the two flutes & what I sold my Albion for I should just about come out even.

BTW, the tenor is working out great. It's a joy to play. The Crane I bought last year currently has some problems that I need to get checked. Two neighboring notes sound when one button is depressed, plus a few other notes use a lot of air and are weak. It appears that the reed pan has shrunk a bit as it seems to be a loose fit. It happpened during the cold winter we just had here. There don't appear to be any cracks or warps. I can jiggle the reed pan back and forth so I think there is leakage at the edges.
bruce boysen

And I would certainly advise against trying to do it yourself, even if you decide that is what you want.
What a great -- and easy -- way to ruin a fine instrument!

Well, if you start off on the anglo because that's what you think the Irish play, it would probably take a radical experience to motivate you to switch to the English . Meanwhile, there's a lot of social pressure in the opposite direction from some Irish anglo players.

I personally know one person who played English for several years, gave it up for the anglo to play Irish music, then dropped the anglo and returned to the English several years after that. And I've just heard of a second example of the same. But two examples out of hundreds or thousands of concertina players worldwide is statistically insignificant.


If you mean that unseen122 would not be happy... maybe so; I don't know. But if you mean no one could be happy, I know better. And if you mean that English players in general would be unhappy because they'd be given flak by bigoted anglo players, I doubt even that there would be much of that if the English player were a good musician. (By the way, have you ever heard a flute or fiddle player tell an English concertina player that he didn't "sound Irish" because he didn't sound like an anglo?)

As I've said before, there are people who can play the English so that it sounds like Irish-style anglo. though anyone who wants to do the same will probably have to teach themselves. I don't know anyone actually teaching that technique. But at least some of the better anglo players don't look down on the English. I've seen Niall Vallely both jamming and peforming with Alistair Anderson. I was present when another well-known anglo teacher heard a friend of mine (who is not a well-known performer) play Irish tunes in a non-anglo style on the English, and his immediate reaction was, "I'd like to record with you!" (I haven't asked the parties involved about mentioning their names. I can say that the anglo teacher was not Noel hill. )


I would say that if you want to be part of the anglo-concertina in-crowd, that may be necessary. And if it is really the Irish-anglo sound you want, and not just those elements of Irish style that tie together fiddle and pipes as well as anglo concertina, then you should certainly try the anglo. And if you are inclining toward the anglo, you should be aware that it's capable of far more than just tunes. Of course, there's the melody-plus-chords style common for Morris dancing, but I've heard fine song accompaniment, jazz, and ragtime, and I doubt there's any style of popular music that it can't do in good hands. So don't feel that it's necessary to stay with the English to keep broad possibilities open.

But anyone who claims that the English is incapable of playing Irish music in a way that sounds "Irish" -- as opposed to a way that sounds angloish -- is dead wrong.

Edited to correct a silly typo.

I really don't think there's enough data -- nor even anecdotes in various threads here on Concertina.net -- to support such a conclusion one way or another.

Get some Irish CDs and listen to the songs and figure out how to play them. When playing English Concertina you will not sound like an Anglo but you will sound more like a Flute/Whistle and probably be more inspired by them (Flute and Whistle players) that is according to english players that play I rish music you would still be playing Irish music and could play a session and have no problem I would advise against switching.

I know this is thread drift, but can you explain what you mean by and how you play Simon Thoumire's one-button rolls (in detail please).

Peter Dyson
Bellingham, WA

>>I know this is thread drift, but can you explain what you mean by and how you play Simon Thoumire's one-button rolls (in detail please).<<

Peter,
I wish I could, but I can't explain in any great detail. According to the interview with Simon (plus listening to his CD's) at the Footstompin (http://www.footstompin.com/home) site, he uses fingers 1 & 2 only to play repeated notes on one button. He said this is central to his playing technique. He does it all the time and some sound to me like three note hammers, and others like 4. I called it a roll because he uses this in places where it seems to me a roll might commonly be used. I love how he does it and I've been working on getting my speed up and also working on the timing of them.

It would be great to go to a workshop or take a few lessions from Simon. I'm a huge fan of his last CD, The Big Day In.

Maybe we could get Simon to go into more detail?
bruce boysen

Just for fun, I've started a Poll on the subject.

Why not play both an English and an Anglo. I had been playing English for about 15 years and then got an Anglo. For me it was a good thing as I find that it gives me the flexibility to choose which instrument to play a particulat tune as I find that certain tunes fit the english better and visa-versa. Also, I have found that learning the Anglo has given me ideas and techniques that have transferred to the English. In all honesty. I can't say that I prefer one system to the other. I love them both and will always play both.

Have you checked out the Poll? Several people do.

Have you "voted" in the Poll?

I have been playing the English concertina for the past 12 years and Irish trad. on it for at least the past 10 years. One of the compliments I received over this time was from my Irish Anglo-playing friend George, who said: "I hate you Jonathan. Because you play Irish music on the English better than I do on the Anglo, and you make it sound like an Anglo." But he doesn't like sitting next to me in sessions because my Aeola treble -- ebony-ended, not metal -- makes his ears hurt. So much for Anglos being louder.

One problem with learning any concertina is keeping the notes distinct and separate. On the English it's important to do this, otherwise they run into one another and you end up with a continuous amorphous mush, with no clear rhythm, emphasis or structure, and completely lacking punch. On the English you can do this for bar after bar nonstop until you run out of air, and obviously, Irish trad. played this way sounds like utter crap. I have often heard beginners do this, especially when nervous. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that that is what Lawrence is doing, to some extent, at least.

Now Anglo beginners will tend to make exactly the same mistake, but will forced to separate the notes at least some of the time by the bellows reversals, which will also provide emphasis. That is what Lawrence is hearing from the Anglo players he mentioned. Note: it is not the bellows reversals themselves producing this effect, but the note separations forced by the bellows reversals.

But Anglo players who progress beyond this level have to learn how to separate their notes properly, too, just like English players have to. So better players of either system can put in emphasis and punch at will, of course, without needing to rely on reversals. Which means that the apparent advantage of the Anglo that Lawrence is observing only exists up to a certain skill level, and that English players can produce much the same effects as Anglo players, whatever style of music is played.

One such typical Anglo effect that is very difficult to impossible on the English (for me personally anyway) is playing in octaves -- playing whole bars of the tune with both the right hand and an octave lower also with the left hand. The most I can achieve in this is short phrases. But while this is a common feature of Irish Anglo music, it is impossible on many other typical Irish trad. instruments and therefore cannot be an essential feature of Irish music in general.

To compensate for this drawback of the English, there are other common Irish trad. features which are much easier on the English, e.g. fast triplets up or down on to any note (often heard in top-class uilleann piping).

So my advice to Lawrence is this: if you were starting the concertina from scratch, with Irish in mind, I would say: get an Anglo. But in your particular case, there are drawbacks to changing to anglo or learning Anglo alongside English:

- You will never be able to get a similar-quality Anglo for one of your Englishes for the same price.
- You will lose two years until your Irish playing has reached the level that your Anglo-playing friends have now. At which point you, like they are now, will still be using bellows reversals as a crutch to note separation.

So: if you are dead set on playing 100% Irish Anglo music complete with playing in octaves: get an Anglo. But if it's 100% (or whatever) Irish music on a concertina you want, the English will do fine, believe me. If as you say your ambitions are not high, you will probably get more mileage for your time and money by sticking with the English and concentrating on improving your note separation. This will help your playing in general, not only the Irish.

You might have trouble finding someone in Southern England who plays Irish on the English, but if you think I might be able to help, feel free to contact me off-forum. I'm over there pretty often.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I got a lot of useful advice and plenty of ideas. Here's what I've decided to do:

1. To keep on with the English concertina as my main instrument and to persevere with learning to play Irish music on the EC.

2. As a background activity, and as time and funds permit, to experiment with Anglo and Button Accordion.

Lawrence

Oh well done, Lawrence,

and then you must try the piano accordion.

Well, come on, you are experimenting. You'll love it. Well, maybe.

Helen

Good for you Lawrence! Your decision-making process sure did generate an awful lot of discussion, both here and at The Session! I'm glad you've made a decision, and I hope it's one you'll be very happy with.

After all, when it all comes down to it, it's really about the music, not which type of concertina you play it on.


Steven

At an ICA annual general meeting several years ago, Roger Digby presented a series of pieces on cassette tape, and challenged the rest of us to identify whetjher the instrument we heard was an English, Anglo, or Duet. I think I got about half right, which was a typical score among those present. It is not what you play, it's what you do with it.

- John Wild

There are folks who play the English system and melodeon/accordion

and you can get a much better accordion for your dollars than you can another concertina..

I say get a melodeon...(button accordion) something straightforward such as a d/g
and if someone tells you can't play Irish on it.. have them listen to Tim Eady...

Jeff

Good, good, Jeff.

Let's get everyone to play accordions and concertinas.

Ah, my work is done.

Helen