How do you know if your a beginner, intermediate or advanced player?
What criteria do you judge by?

Ain't no hard & fast guidelines that I'm aware of. If you can play a dozen or so tunes at the speed they're meant to be played at (that means danceable-to in my book) without making mistakes, you're out of the "beginner" class, in my view.

But you're not in the "advanced" category until you can join in at most sessions with the majority of tunes without people giving you "Paddington Bear" hard looks.

That must make me "intermediate".

I suppose there are objective criteria, but if we're honest with ourselves, we can apply subjective criteria. How do you assess yourself?

"I'll never be able to play the concertina properly!" - Beginner.
"I can play the concertina!" - Intermediate.
"My concertina playing is improving gradually!" - Advanced.

Me? I play the Anglo. I'll never be able to play the Crane duet properly.

However, I do think my Anglo playing has been improving gradually of late... That probably means that, with the Foothills of Beginnerhood far behind me, I'm about to leave the comfortable, flat paths of the Plateau of Intermediacy and head for the Peaks of Advancement. Allegorically speaking. (I re-read "The Pilgrim's Progress" recently.)

Cheers,
John

Cheers,
John

unconscious incompetence

conscious incompetence

conscious competence

unconscious competence

I like the criteria used at the August Heritage Center in West Virginia when advising you which summer class to sign up for (edited to limit to music rather than dance or craft classes):



e.g. If you are doing some tunes up to speed but not ornamenting them yet, but still can learn tunes more easily than as a beginner, you're one of their intermediate students. I watched Cajun accordion students pick up a tune by ear in just a couple of minutes and right away go to how to ornament it, play variations, trade cues with the fiddler, etc. They were definitely out of the intermediate category. I was stuck at advanced beginner for a long time. I finally hit intermediate on anglo by these criteria after 3 or 4 years of effort (spread over a longer period!).

Just one definition, there are lots of other good ones.

Ken

I can usually pick up the melody fairly quickly (if the buttons I have to push/pull are written down...no hope of even getting started otherwise.)...but its just when I add the accompaniment it all goes pear shaped..quickest I've got both working is a month.

So does that stick me inbetween novice and beginner?

I''ve been trying to analise how I learn. I think because letters like 'A', or 'C' don't stick in my head what I do is a memorise the patterns my fingers make/numbers in the tabulature make and use the written music to judge the rythm. Now I just need to get it to stick in my head and be able to tie a letter to the buttons which I find really hard so then I can make sense to other people and they make sense to me when talking about notes.

Then you go to Conservatory and there it starts all over again:
Beginner: can play any music from the dots, in any key, but without much insights
Intermediate: some of the passages raise brows, but already lost enthusiasm.
Advanced: Ready to join orchestra to become enthusiastic beginner.

Sometimes that inherent Russian optimism really shines through, you know. (Right. Lovely morning here. I'm going fishing.)

This is a very poor reply. It demoralises enthusiastic beginners. We all started somewhere you know? According to your definition only those who have have passed a baptism of fire will ever reach the exalted position of being worthy to learn. I'm a socially inept but technically bright person (like yourself) too; the difference is I don't have a chip on my shoulder or have anything to prove to anyone. You however have decided that a: the world is against you. And b: only your opinion counts.

Wrong in both assumptions. Why? because a: that's paranoid and b: that's narcissistic. Look back on your numerous posts and ask yourself if you ever gave impartial or hesitant advice.

Somehow I think your heart's in the right place but you just go way too far expounding all that is right and wrong in the field of musical teaching and learning. Am I right in thinking that you greatly respect the teaching methods used in eastern Europe but either you or your forebears have chosen to live a life in a somewhat easier regime in the West?

We await the m3838 guide to all that's right and proper with less than bated breath.

Beginner One who has just started to learn to play an instrument.

Intermediate One who has been playing an instrument for some time.

Advanced One who has been playing same instrument for a great many years.

Of course, it doesn't mean you necessarily end up being an accomplished musician!

Chris

Actually it's interesting question and I'm eager to answer it.
My life philosophy is very simple: you can be anything, at any level of talent or ability, even a criminal (God forbid), but you just MUST realize what you are. If you are a poor player, it's OK, but only if you realize it. Then it becomes fine and inoffensive and you get great freedom to live YOUR life any way YOU want (with just equal amount of responsibility. If YOU decided to drive above speed limit and are caught, don't argue with Police. YOUR choice and YOUR punishment. Take it.)
Second, I disagree with your seeming assumption that people are weaklings, and always need to be cheered up, for good and for bad. "Good Job" has become an ironic remark by Russian "Patriots" in relation to stupid, naive, weak, inept "pindoses" (that's how they calle Americans). I personally think people (and Americans particularly) are pretty hardy, stoic and designed to take abuse.
The only difference is the upper middle class "new Agey" Yappies in Marin County, California. But they have reasons to be, with around million dollars on saving accounts and great paying jobs. Most people in the "convinient" West are struggling from pay check to pay check and don't need fake tapping on the shoulder.
Yes, Russians (of all ethnicities) are generally much less optimistic on the surface, they have been taught a hard way not to expect the good things come their way. But folks in the so called "West" are the same, only they have been taught by lawyers to smile a lot. It's coming this way in Russia too.
Thirdly, I don't really see, where you found discouragement in my statement. The opposite is true, the core of it is: "Life goes on, and there is no end of climbing the ladder".
Haven't you become a little too conditioned by easy compliments?

Now, what is right and wrong in music.
Well, everything I like is wright, and dislike - is wrong. Isn't it the utter truth?
Thanks.

Yes, Misha's contributions are always pronounced and looking for "the truth according to M3838". That's exactly what makes them so recognisably subjective. They help to look from another perspective. I don't think that's poor. And it didn't demoralised me when I was a beginner.......

I think all M3838 was trying to say is that the stages applicable to amateurs and to professionals are on different levels, and that even an advanced amateur will be on the lower rung when compared with professional musicians.

It may be true in the world of "serious" music (how I hate that term). In other genres, I'm not so sure. In folk music, which is the field I know best, there are plenty of amateur musicians on all instruments who can compare with the professionals, and indeed might be capable of turning pro if they so wished, but have chosen not to.

I couldn't agree more, I'm a great advocate of people realising their personal limitations. As it happens I delight in remaining within mine while watching my 'superiors' making a complete hash of their jobs because they have risen to the level of their own incompetence.



Here is where you and I differ. As it happens I don't suffer fools gladly and believe me I'd be the last person to give praise if it wasn't due. Your approach 'appears' to warn people off trying to realise their ambitions unless they have the approved degree of aptitude and skill. My opinion is more that people will get from music what they put in, simple as that.



I won't even pretend to understand this statement and I'll write it off as being uniquely American!


Lawyers? don't talk to me about lawyers.



I hope not, but we're back with the hoary old question of is the cup half empty or half full? For me the cup is always half full. I agree that there is never an end to climbing the ladder (and long may it be so because if there are no more challenges you might as well be dead).

Don't blame us! I didn't understand it either
California is a culture all it's own. It has nothing to do with the US

Thanks
Leo

Maybe so but beer mugs are ALWAYS half empty.

I happen to take massage classes in Marin County, California. Some of the advices from the teachers will get roaring laughter from any Russian, and I suspect, any normal American as well. But here in the Land of the Golden Eggs they are taken with serious faces.
Such subjects as "Emotional Release", Music healing, dealing with fashionable nowadays "Past Sexual Abuse" etc. will put any teacher anywhere in the World out of business or in Comedy Club. Not in Marin County! Here a pimple on the nose can be a source for artistic inspiration.

But why some folks take my posts in straight over the forehead manner, I am not able to understand. I guess some people just are born to take things for face value.

Back on subject:



The only way is to compare yourself to others. It's up to you how you pick the others - unless somebody else is asking you how good you are, and then you have to decide what kind of pool of players they are thinking of.

Since there aren't that many concertina players around (and almost all are amateurs), you might want to consider non-concertina players as well, to help put things into context. This, perhaps unfortunately, moves most concertina players down quite a few notches. (As an example, I somehow made it onto the English International CD.... but there's no way I would ever come close to making it onto "Cello International", even if it was restricted to amateurs... yet I'm actually far better at playing the cello than the concertina - it's just intrinsically harder...).

The things to judge yourself on are technical ability, ability to phrase, ability to improvise, ability to sight read, ability to understand and express the structure in the music, ability to recognise good music and play it in preference to not-so-good music(!), ability to harmonise... all or some of these things and more! Again - the criteria depend on the context of the question - if it's for you, then what you think important - if someone else is asking, then it's what they think is important.

Hmmm....well I don't intend to be a professional....its more of a creative outlet for me..something to fill time. And a way of joining in when family and friends decide to play music and I feel left out because I'm 'musicly challenged'. (Not that they play anythng folkie its more your rock sorta music)


Well then I'm the advanced concertina player in my household.

I find it hard to judge my 'stage' because I don't learn in a linier way. I try to give myself a yardstick. I don't take it step by step...I tend to try something hard straight off...find its too difficult then try something eles...and keep going till I find something easy I can do.
Then later I might try the hard thing again and if I still can't do it I go I go back to something easier. and so on and so forth untill eventually I can do the hard tune...or at least what I thought was a hard tune.

That brings back memories ........ well, if it worked for me , I'm sure it will work for other people, too!

You only just made it onto English International Ratface,
I had to twist your arm for the recordings.
Cello International !!! Now that's worth thinking about.
Al

I'm sure that Danny is correct with his comments about the cello, and the wider musical world ...... but in the concertina world, he is far too modest.

I quote from the recent review featured in "Living Tradition Magazine" by Roger Edwards
" Players of classical music on the English Concertina are well represented too.Distinguished professional players make their appearance and give exemplary performances,taking the instrument to places where we're not used to hearing it. Personally I'm struck by the playing of a young chap from Germany (now Oxford) named Danny Chapman whose "Adante Largo" is the ultimate three minutes and sixteen seconds of the whole album."
ARISE SIR RATFACE it gets no better than that.Richly deserved.
Al

Have you ever seen a rat blush?!

Hi
I spent lots of money (and time) buying different instruments. The main reason was that I would find 'a piece' difficult to play on a particular instrument - so I'd buy a different instrument on which said 'piece' was playable, then I would find a different 'piece' and 'need' a different instrument to make playing it possible. This is why I have so many instruments In the end I realised that it was better to find an instrument that would be 'possible' in 'any key' and possible for the sort of music I wish to play - for me that is the concertina. That doesn't make me an especially good player- but it does stop me buying any more instruments (apart from concertinas ) I guess the main thing I learnt was that 'application' is the important thing- that, and practice.
I'm not sure that 'competition' is good for music either (having played in competitions in brass bands) it just makes you good at winning competitions not really making 'music.' The main thing is whatever level you're at (within whatever definition you use) enjoy it
chris

Well, to go back to LDT's question .. whilst I understand why you are trying to learn in this way - it's a very slow and tortuous approach. You seem to be trying to read the notes off a page, 'now which button is a B? and which way do I move the bellows?' Trying to do this for a sequence of music and keep the rhythm as a beginner is just hard. It seems logical to the adult brain - cause and effect. The manuscript says play a G, this button plays a G - but that won't give you music.
Music is like speech and language - as a child, imagine being given a book at 2 years of age and told to read it, when you could yet barely make the correct sounds. It's that crazy. You probably didn't learn how to read and write with any fluency till about 12 but this is how many adults approach learning music.
I'd repeat the advice to get a teacher. Also get a 'simpler' instrument - whistle or recorder or even your own singing voice. Learn the melody on those so that you know what it should sound like, play tunes and songs you know. Then pick up your concertina and aim to get the tune out. Try not to think too much about which button you're pressing - concentrate on the sound and rhythm. You might think about what you are going to say before you open your mouth but you don't have think about what muscles or wind you need to use to actually make the sounds that make up language. Its the same..

And now comes the ultimate note: regardless of "level" you are at, if you have talent to express yourself, you can create a piece of art.
An Artist can make anything to work towards the goal - evoke predictable emotion in a receiver, in this case, a listener.
It is very subjective, but if a particular artist directs his/her efforts towards particular audience, it becomes quite obvious.
In which context I recall suggestions of all music teachers I have encountered:
"no matter what you play, a scale, arpeggio, or a piece of tune, consider it Music, and play it, as though it's the last time in your life, so you need to put all you have into it." I wish I listened.

This hits the spot for me. I've been struggling and rather disenchanted with my playing lately because I've hit the wall again. It's been mentioned many times before, and I like many others tend to move forward in bunny jumps; it's just that sometimes there seems to be a long gap between one jump and the next so this time I've taken matters into my own hands and have taken a step backwards.

At the moment I'm playing everything very slowly, even pieces I know quite well, and concentrating on phrasing, bellows control and fingering. If there's more than one fingering option for a passage I practice each one. It's surprising how much expression you can work into a piece when your not solely concentrating on just getting to the end of it.

At first I was quite surprised to find that in difficult pieces I still made the same mistakes in the same places but in slow motion! This highlighted flaws in my playing technique that I'm now addressing - mostly by playing even slower until I find the cause of the problem. This is very often a series of notes that occur frequently in tunes that I play that are subtly rearranged in the piece I'm struggling with, in other words I'm tripping over my own reflexes like someone who comes across an unfamiliar word in a book, you recognise the letters but you're used to seeing them in a different order.

Practice continues ...

This slowing down technique I use and then very slowly build up speed.If I make a mistake it's back to the slows again.
It works eventually until the next brick wall.
Al

Playing slowly with good rhythm is the key to it all.
You must like what you play, as you play, and not think of "getting better," or some end-point of this journey.
There is no end-point. This is what there is. Every good musician hears better music in his head then what comes in through the ears.
We all are on the same road. Some people are just farther down the road, for a variety of reasons.
The most important thing to learn is to learn to love to play. Even -- especially! -- to love what you "practice."
In my mind there is no practice. Even playing a tricky passage over and over, slowly, til I have it, is playing.

If you make just one mistake you are playing too fast - then you have to go back and play it again more slowly.

It's not hard work when you love what you play. It's easy work.

I will always practice and never play....everything is practice to me playing is what experts and performers do. I'm no performer or expert. I hate to have an audience. And I always make a mistake one the first couple of tries I can not play things straight through from a standing start without mistakes. If I'm trying to play in front of someone I do it wrong every time or get up to a point and keep getting stuck and go well I'm learning you get the gist of what it should sound like.

Give it time. It takes a lot of practice before you are confident of playing a piece without mistakes, even on your own. Playing to an audience, even if it's a single member of your family, is another thing again. But given time and effort, but most of all enthusiasm, it will come. Things you think now are beyond you will become possible. We were all at your stage once. One day, you will be able to play, and even (assuming you want to) play to an audience.

But David is right, there is no end point. We are all learning, and striving to get better. After more than 30 years playing, there are still things I can't play, and things I know I could do better.

Always be self-critical. Congratulate yourself on your successes when you finally achieve something, and then move on to the next challenge. That is what makes learning any skill so fascinating, and so rewarding. You have started on a path which will give you immense pleasure for life. Sure, it will be frustrating as well, but it will be worth it for the enjoyment of making music and the friends you will make through it.

Ratface brilliantly makes the point that this is more than one-dimensional and most players are going to be stronger in one department than another.

Some people do not want to sight read at all. Some people do not want to pick tunes and are happy for someone else to do that. In fact the only time when "levels of ability" are of any real use is when signing up for courses and, even there, they do not really acheive what you want.

I still intended to transcribe the short speach that Alistair Anderson made to the first ever basic band at the Folkworks summer school (heavens, this must be 2002). The important part described the difference between classical and folk playing. Alistair said that if you want to play Beethoven you need to be pretty damn good but he could think of many players who were not technically very good and he would not normaly cross the room to hear better who had latched on to one particular tune and produced a performance to remember.

Like Ratface said, the criteria depend on the context.

Easy test.
Sit in a bar and start playing.

If it takes twenty minutes for the bar to empty, you're probably an advanced player.
If it only takes ten, you're intermediate.
If you get thrown out of the bar, you're a beginner.

Phil

Hate to think what my stage is, they wouldn't even let me in the bar........

All the world's a stage, Rusty,
And all the men and women merely Players.
One man in his time plays many parts…

m3838 has it right, I think:

"no matter what you play, a scale, arpeggio, or a piece of tune, consider it Music, and play it, as though it's the last time in your life, so you need to put all you have into it."

Gosh think of all that great music I've missed by never playing scales and arpeggios.

Scales and arpeggios...but not "Twinkle, Twinkle-?" Very confusing. I'm confident that m3838 won't fail me and will summarily elucidate why it is that exercises are forms capable of artistic expression, but not tunes derived from childhood nursery rhymes..

Those that have ears will hear.

Ah. Thank you for the exegesis.

Ditto...and they'd ask for ID.


What on earth is an arpeggio?
sounds like a pirates wooden leg (arrr-pegeo)

An arpeggio is a series of notes from a scale or chord. If you played C D E F G F E D C that would be an arpeggio from the C scale, C E G E C is an arpeggio of the Cmaj chord.