http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=17163.
here is an example of a roll on a dotted crotchet in the first bar of the kesh jig.
I only use rolls occasionally, preferring four note embellishments,but since this twerp Micheal Gill ,reckoned they couldnt be played on the concertina,here is a demonstration,there is an emphasis on the first note.
of course there are other ways to play rolls,but [imo] the important thing is to be cutting the main note with notes on the opposite side.
Full Version: Slow Rolls On The Concertina
QUOTE (dick miles @ Oct 29 2008, 10:50 AM) 
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=17163.
here is an example of a roll on a dotted crotchet in the first bar of the kesh jig.
I only use rolls occasionally, preferring four note embellishments,but since this twerp Micheal Gill ,reckoned they couldnt be played on the concertina,here is a demonstration,there is an emphasis on the first note.
of course there are other ways to play rolls,but [imo] the important thing is to be cutting the main note with notes on the opposite side.
here is an example of a roll on a dotted crotchet in the first bar of the kesh jig.
I only use rolls occasionally, preferring four note embellishments,but since this twerp Micheal Gill ,reckoned they couldnt be played on the concertina,here is a demonstration,there is an emphasis on the first note.
of course there are other ways to play rolls,but [imo] the important thing is to be cutting the main note with notes on the opposite side.
Perhaps... The "problem" with rolls on the concertina (Anglo or English) is that they're too melodic. That is - you can hear the notes that comprise the roll (unless the concertina/player isn't up to it, but then it just sounds mushy). A roll played on the fiddle is very different - because the grace notes are much less distinct - the effect is that of cutting the main note with just a hint of a melodic pattern - so it's much more of a balance between a melodic and rhythmic effect. I much prefer that, since it interferes less with the underlying tune, and it decorates without taking over.
QUOTE (RatFace @ Oct 29 2008, 04:06 PM)
QUOTE (dick miles @ Oct 29 2008, 10:50 AM)
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=17163.
here is an example of a roll on a dotted crotchet in the first bar of the kesh jig.
I only use rolls occasionally, preferring four note embellishments,but since this twerp Micheal Gill ,reckoned they couldnt be played on the concertina,here is a demonstration,there is an emphasis on the first note.
of course there are other ways to play rolls,but [imo] the important thing is to be cutting the main note with notes on the opposite side.
here is an example of a roll on a dotted crotchet in the first bar of the kesh jig.
I only use rolls occasionally, preferring four note embellishments,but since this twerp Micheal Gill ,reckoned they couldnt be played on the concertina,here is a demonstration,there is an emphasis on the first note.
of course there are other ways to play rolls,but [imo] the important thing is to be cutting the main note with notes on the opposite side.
Perhaps... The "problem" with rolls on the concertina (Anglo or English) is that they're too melodic. That is - you can hear the notes that comprise the roll (unless the concertina/player isn't up to it, but then it just sounds mushy). A roll played on the fiddle is very different - because the grace notes are much less distinct - the effect is that of cutting the main note with just a hint of a melodic pattern - so it's much more of a balance between a melodic and rhythmic effect. I much prefer that, since it interferes less with the underlying tune, and it decorates without taking over.
Somewhere in my long-term memory there is a story about a
fiddle player from these parts who went to Ireland and happened
to hear and meet Kevin Burke. Being a straightforward person,
he immediately asked Mr. Burke: "What's the funny noises?"
/Henrik
Edited to add an "s" - these parts meaning Scandinavia
QUOTE (dick miles @ Oct 29 2008, 06:01 PM)
he is a very annoyting person on the session [www session .org] who seems to enjoy trolling and flaming,and making statements like the concertina and the banjo are second tier instruments because they cant articulate,or play rolls[sorryAlistairAnderson you have just been consigned to being inarticulate]
.he seems to have something against people who want to read music,yet he refuses to put clips of himself on you tube or sound lantern.
.he seems to have something against people who want to read music,yet he refuses to put clips of himself on you tube or sound lantern.
Far be it from me to attempt to defend the bold Michael, but I think, to be fair to him, he was after all, only stating his opinion, which is really what we are all doing here & is what makes, or can make forums like this one so interesting.
I admit, I have had some fun myself, over on the session forum in the past, poking fun at the status of various instruments, but never meant any of the jibes seriously, so I'm not really sure Michael did either.
I suspect he, like myself & many others, just likes to stir things up a bit to get a discussion going & I know from experience that this technique does often work.
There are so many ways of looking at musical instruments that they will probably all come out on top in one category & bottom in another. So I personally wouldn't take his 2nd class jibe seriously.
Regarding the rolls, I must say I do tend to agree with him, that on Concertinas, rolls can & often do sound very clumsy & so interfere with the natural flow of the tune. It seems to be almost impossible to hit those grace notes on the Concertina, with the same deftness that you can manage on some other instruments, to render them almost inaudible. I would suggest that grace notes are supposed to be, after all, graceful, so if the end result is not graceful, then some of those extra little notes really should be left out.
Rather than trying to emulate other instruments, I strongly believe that players should do their best to bring out the inherent qualities of each instrument, rather than trying to make them sound like another instrument. I guess what I'm saying is that I love the sounds the Concertina can produce, but I want it to sound like a Concertina, not a Fiddle or a set of Pipes
Here's another thought, I wonder how many FOUR NOTE CHORDS Michael can produce on his Fiddle?
Horses for courses I reckon & just for the record, I ride both of these Horses in question here, the Fiddle & the Concertina. I also bashed a Tenor Banjo around sessions for 20 years, so I do realise that some instruments have limitations, but for me at least, often these just add to their charm.
Of course, the above is only my opinion Dick, for what it's worth.
Cheers
Dick
P.S. As for him putting clips up on YouTube & Sound Lantern, I have it on very good authority that he is in fact a very fine musician ................... he just manages to rub some people up the wrong way, sometimes!
P.P.S. I hope I haven't managed to rub you up the wrong way Dick, with my reply?
No personal attacks please.
Thanks,
Paul
Thanks,
Paul
Rolls...this is not a term I am familiar with. When I listened to what Dick posted it was clear. I know it as a "turn". Sometimes I employ a turn at less than a swift jig or all out reel tempo so that I have time to articulate each note. I found it not helpful in the Kesh jig but understand Dick was articulating his point on the ability of a concertina to pull one off.
Is this a folk vs. "classical" or English vs. American english thing...like those crotchets?
QUOTE (Mark Evans @ Oct 29 2008, 05:54 PM)
Rolls...this is not a term I am familiar with. When I listened to what Dick posted it was clear. I know it as a "turn". Sometimes I employ a turn at less than a swift jig or all out reel tempo so that I have time to articulate each note. I found it not helpful in the Kesh jig but understand Dick was articulating his point on the ability of a concertina to pull one off.
Is this a folk vs. "classical" or English vs. American english thing...like those crotchets?
yeah it is a turn,and really I think that term probably came before the term roll.,and is correct terminology.Is this a folk vs. "classical" or English vs. American english thing...like those crotchets?
exactly Mark,I would be happier using a four note embellishment or various triplets or double stop or octaves,what i quite like here is a g low d g ,triplet,which works harmonically with g a g .
of course if one is playing solo,there is much more freedom to use melodic improvisation.
I suppose in a session situation,fine detail is not so important,but when two people are dueting its faily important, that there arrangements are sympathetic.
ga g g [first two semiquavers next two quavers]is another favourite of mine here.,but style is apersonal thing,each to their own,if we all played exactly the same way it would be boring.
Firstly let me say that I agree with a lot of what Ptarmigan is saying regarding rolls on the concertina and indeed on the subject of concertina players trying to make concertinas sound like other instruments. To my mind it seems a strange practice to be getting up to. If you want to sound like the pipes, get a set of pipes surely. And without wishing to offend Dick Miles myself, I don't believe that it is possible to imitate the sound of a fiddle, flute or pipe rolls on the concertina. Even the best of concertina players will acknowledge that for various reasons, certain notes do not ornamentate well on the concertina whilst others can be better ornamented. I know that Dick was obviously trying to prove, in the face of some inflammatory remarks, that it could be done but again without wishing to offend I felt that Dick actually in some ways proved the point- i.e. that you cannot perform a slow (or long roll as it was known when I went to school) on the concertina. You certainly can play five notes, you can certainly make certain sounds on the concertina that might or might not appeal, but a roll as it is sounded on other instruments is, in my opinion, beyond the scope of the concertina. But the whole mechanics of say, executing a roll on a fiddle can be so varied, the timing within the roll can be so manipulated, that asking the buttons of a concertina to imitate it is, to my mind a questionable pursuit
Some contributors here for example don't like the heavy punchy sound that some concertina players use, some others don’t like the chording aspect some use, just as some fiddle players (and indeed a lot of listeners) don't like the sound of Tommy People's "scratching" So as Ptarmigan says, horses for courses and as Dick has just said, whatever works for you, whatever floats your boat.
But and there is a but- this whole issue over rolls on the concertina came about because it was declared that " if you don't play a slow roll on the B at the beginning of "Out On The Ocean" you are not playing the tune correctly or indeed similarly on the G at the start of the Kesh Jig, and it is out if this argument the whole issues of rolls on the concertina (amongst other stuff) arose. And so by this reckoning, all those great musicians, playing whatever instrument, who choose not to play a roll say for example in Out On The Ocean, are not playing the tune "right" (sic). This would obviously include fiddle players who can but chose not to execute a roll at certain pre-determined places. What can one say to that and certainly in the context of Irish trad music where the freedom and ability to play the tune as you want to is prized??
As for stirring it up, which may or may not entertain people - a problem occurs when this "stirring it up " offends and hurts people and it most certainly can and has; and I can say for certainly that I have never seen the same tone or attitude being taken by anyone on this site as I have by certain regular contributors on the session.org. (I must also say that I have been given the best of help both on this site and indeed session.org)
“Flaming “people who come to a forum asking for help is not my idea of fun nor indeed is ridiculing people who ask for the dots of tunes. To paraphrase- if you can’t say anything helpful, stay out of it. To finish and without reference to any one particular person, I don’t care how good a musician somebody is, there is no need for obnoxious and sometimes hurtful behaviour and it certainly cannot be dressed up as a worthwhile way to “get a discussion going”. Not for me anyway.
Some contributors here for example don't like the heavy punchy sound that some concertina players use, some others don’t like the chording aspect some use, just as some fiddle players (and indeed a lot of listeners) don't like the sound of Tommy People's "scratching" So as Ptarmigan says, horses for courses and as Dick has just said, whatever works for you, whatever floats your boat.
But and there is a but- this whole issue over rolls on the concertina came about because it was declared that " if you don't play a slow roll on the B at the beginning of "Out On The Ocean" you are not playing the tune correctly or indeed similarly on the G at the start of the Kesh Jig, and it is out if this argument the whole issues of rolls on the concertina (amongst other stuff) arose. And so by this reckoning, all those great musicians, playing whatever instrument, who choose not to play a roll say for example in Out On The Ocean, are not playing the tune "right" (sic). This would obviously include fiddle players who can but chose not to execute a roll at certain pre-determined places. What can one say to that and certainly in the context of Irish trad music where the freedom and ability to play the tune as you want to is prized??
As for stirring it up, which may or may not entertain people - a problem occurs when this "stirring it up " offends and hurts people and it most certainly can and has; and I can say for certainly that I have never seen the same tone or attitude being taken by anyone on this site as I have by certain regular contributors on the session.org. (I must also say that I have been given the best of help both on this site and indeed session.org)
“Flaming “people who come to a forum asking for help is not my idea of fun nor indeed is ridiculing people who ask for the dots of tunes. To paraphrase- if you can’t say anything helpful, stay out of it. To finish and without reference to any one particular person, I don’t care how good a musician somebody is, there is no need for obnoxious and sometimes hurtful behaviour and it certainly cannot be dressed up as a worthwhile way to “get a discussion going”. Not for me anyway.
QUOTE (Larryo @ Oct 30 2008, 12:06 AM)
As for stirring it up, which may or may not entertain people - a problem occurs when this "stirring it up " offends and hurts people and it most certainly can and has; and I can say for certainly that I have never seen the same tone or attitude being taken by anyone on this site as I have by certain regular contributors on the session.org. (I must also say that I have been given the best of help both on this site and indeed session.org)
“Flaming “people who come to a forum asking for help is not my idea of fun nor indeed is ridiculing people who ask for the dots of tunes. To paraphrase- if you can’t say anything helpful, stay out of it. To finish and without reference to any one particular person, I don’t care how good a musician somebody is, there is no need for obnoxious and sometimes hurtful behaviour and it certainly cannot be dressed up as a worthwhile way to “get a discussion going”. Not for me anyway.
“Flaming “people who come to a forum asking for help is not my idea of fun nor indeed is ridiculing people who ask for the dots of tunes. To paraphrase- if you can’t say anything helpful, stay out of it. To finish and without reference to any one particular person, I don’t care how good a musician somebody is, there is no need for obnoxious and sometimes hurtful behaviour and it certainly cannot be dressed up as a worthwhile way to “get a discussion going”. Not for me anyway.
Quite right Larry, when I made my comments I had absolutely no idea that the session.orger had made such an offensive &/or personal attack on Dick's playing. That sort of behavour is, of course, totally out of order on any forum.
I personally find that 'Flaming' as a technique can be amusing, & can add interest to a thread, but obviously it must be done with tact & in the right spirit, with the greatest of care & attention to detail. Sarcastic & cynical comments posted in jest, can so easily be misinterpreted on a forum, so great care must always be taken & when the line is proving to be just too fine between fun & hurt, they should be left out.
As you say, clearly in this case, the comments posted against Dick fell into the category of obnoxious and hurtful and clearly, should not be tolerated.
I actually have Dick's tutors & one of his CDs too, so I know for a fact that he is an excellent musician & a wonderful player too, with great breadth & variety in his playing.
However his ability as a musician, or anyone else's for that matter, should never be the butt of anyone's jokes on a forum.
I like to think of these discussions as session discussions round a pub table, & obviously some of the best pub banter involves a bit of humour, but my own personal guide line is that I would never write down on a thread, what I wasn't prepared to say to another musician, to his face, in friendly conversation.
Getting back to the rolls, I think a lot of harm has been done to Irish music by the annual competitions they have been running over here each year since the early 50s. They, in my opinion, have had the effect of almost standardising the music, so that young musicians are left thinking that unless they can ornament every note to perfection, they are not good musician. I used to go to the odd competition to watch & listen to great musicians, but I had to stop, because the whole process annoyed me so much. Time & time again I would see brilliant musicians being knocked back, in favour of technique merchants, cabaret acts almost, who had all the techniques in the book, but often much less heart & soul in their playing.
Can you believe that for a long time at these competitions, you were NOT actually allowed to play, or at the very least you were actively discouraged from playing Kerry &/or Donegal tunes! So tunes like Polkas, Slides, Highlands, Flings, Barndances etc were not considered Irish enough!
Personally, I don't considered a session a proper Irish session unless we've run through of each of those tunes, plus a couple of Planxtys for good measure.
Perhaps the competitions are even partly to blame for so many younger players these days only wanting to sit & impress with endless displays of digital dexterity on fast & ever faster Reels all night! <<< Yawn >>>
One of my favourite players is Fiddle player Ben Lennon, who often, when other players are doing triplets on triplets while doing handstands & breathing fire to impress, simply plays one gorgeous, long note! .... & why not? It works beautifully.
The day that traditional tunes can only be played one way, with everyone only allowed to put in certain ornaments in certain places, is the day I stop playing traditional music! One of the joys of trad music must surely be hearing every player you meet playing each tune a little differently & being allowed the freedom to put his or her own little stamp on each tune they play. I would absolutely hate it if someone ever came up to me & said I sounded just like this player or that player. At the end of the day, I would prefer to sound quite good, but I really don't care how good or bad I sound ............... as long as I sound like me!
Anyway, from now on, I am going to make a point of NOT playing a roll on the B at the beginning of "Out On The Ocean"!
{ that's going to be easy, cause I never did anyway ............. but don't tell you know who!
}So I know the point you are trying to prove here Dick, with these Rolls, but I just want to make it clear that you are not saying that we should all be playing a long roll on that G, but rather that it is an option, & that it CAN be done on a Concertina.
Some will like the effect & some will not, but the choice is ours.
However, you have indeed proved that it IS an option & thankyou for that.
Cheers
Dick
That Dick Miles should have been "flamed" is ugly and low. I refuse to read the forum on Session and only sparingly aquire tunes there as I find the versions often a dissapointment.
The competition thing...I've no knowelege of the Irish system by choice. My experience coming from "classical" singing is that the super competitions with the Metropolitian Opera Jobba the Hut squatting atop the pile has reduced the quality and diversity of modern day singers. I find it impossible to listen to many who are the "standard" today. There is a machine like quality to their technique and musicaltiy I find ofensive. Some of the legendary talents of the recent and far past would today be rejected because of what would certainly be considered "flaws" and diversions from the "norm." Their artistic decendents are still there plying their trade, mainly in obscurity. It is a delight to come across them from time to time, remember their names and keep them in my heart for they labor on not for fame or money.
Our Dick Miles is a fine, musician and certainly not afraid of tacking against the wind. I've been impressed with his unique view as a singer and concertinist.
Back to "rolls"....they are great with fresh butter and a good strong coffee which I will attend to now .
"Roll on buddy, don't ya' roll so slow. How can I roll, if the wheels won't go?"
The competition thing...I've no knowelege of the Irish system by choice. My experience coming from "classical" singing is that the super competitions with the Metropolitian Opera Jobba the Hut squatting atop the pile has reduced the quality and diversity of modern day singers. I find it impossible to listen to many who are the "standard" today. There is a machine like quality to their technique and musicaltiy I find ofensive. Some of the legendary talents of the recent and far past would today be rejected because of what would certainly be considered "flaws" and diversions from the "norm." Their artistic decendents are still there plying their trade, mainly in obscurity. It is a delight to come across them from time to time, remember their names and keep them in my heart for they labor on not for fame or money.
Our Dick Miles is a fine, musician and certainly not afraid of tacking against the wind. I've been impressed with his unique view as a singer and concertinist.
Back to "rolls"....they are great with fresh butter and a good strong coffee which I will attend to now
."Roll on buddy, don't ya' roll so slow. How can I roll, if the wheels won't go?"
QUOTE (Mark Evans @ Oct 30 2008, 09:35 AM)
QUOTE
The competition thing...I've no knowelege of the Irish system by choice. My experience coming from "classical" singing is that the super competitions with the Metropolitian Opera Jobba the Hut standing atop the pile has reduced the quality and diversity of modern day singers. I find it impossible to listen to many who are the "standard" today. There is a machine like quality to their technique and musicaltiy I find ofensive. Some of the legendary talents of the recent and far past would today be rejected because of what would certainly be considered "flaws" and diversions from the "norm." Their artistic decendents singers are still there plying their trade, mainly in obscurity. It is a delight to come across them from time to time, remember their names and keep them in my heart for they labor on not for fame or money.
Back to "rolls"....they are great with fresh butter and a good strong coffee which I will attend to now
.Fascinating, and very sad too, to read that those Classical Competitions have had a similar detrimental overall effect on that musical form too.
QUOTE
... a machine like quality to their technique and musicaltiy ..
Huh! With a statement like that, you realise you could be talking about so many of the younger players in Ireland today!
..... Darn it, I only have brown wholemeal bread in my Bread Bin this morning!
I love all ornaments in Irish music, and like to use them wherever I find them appropriate (and when I am fed up with intricate ornamentation I take my bombard and play some Breton music).
Now I tried the roll on the B on Out on the Ocean, and it was fun to do it. But I never played a roll there and think that when a roll is played there constantly it will get quite boring, and will prevent the melody to flow as I would like it to.
Now I tried the roll on the B on Out on the Ocean, and it was fun to do it. But I never played a roll there and think that when a roll is played there constantly it will get quite boring, and will prevent the melody to flow as I would like it to.
QUOTE (chiton1 @ Oct 30 2008, 12:43 PM)
I love all ornaments in Irish music, and like to use them wherever I find them appropriate (and when I am fed up with intricate ornamentation I take my bombard and play some Breton music).
Now I tried the roll on the B on Out on the Ocean, and it was fun to do it. But I never played a roll there and think that when a roll is played there constantly it will get quite boring, and will prevent the melody to flow as I would like it to.
Now I tried the roll on the B on Out on the Ocean, and it was fun to do it. But I never played a roll there and think that when a roll is played there constantly it will get quite boring, and will prevent the melody to flow as I would like it to.
Agreed, & I'm sure most of us here only use ornamentation sparingly, varying its use as we go, as does Dick himself.
Like he said in his post, "I only use rolls occasionally ..." & we must remember that he was, after all, only playing this particular roll as an example.
Cheers
Dick
P. S. I leave the Bombard, Shawm & Krumhorn playing to my wife.
There's far too much effort involved in those beasts, I'm for an easy life myself.
O'Carolan tunes are a perfect opportunity for rolls and other ornamentation. He was a great supporter of early Baroque Italian and French composers and they expected ornamentation on the repeats...not gratuitously, but with meaning and some measure of restraint. Restraint, like I'm capable of that after a pint or two 
.
.
QUOTE (Mark Evans @ Oct 30 2008, 08:25 AM)
O'Carolan tunes are a perfect opportunity for rolls and other ornamentation. He was a great supporter of early Baroque Italian and French composers and they expected ornamentation on the repeats...not gratuitously, but with meaning and some measure of restraint. Restraint, like I'm capable of that after a pint or two .
rolls are fairly challenging,I find them easier with the two strongest fingers,but I do use my third finger too. .Mark, I think you are spot on about Ocarolan tunes,which [imo]are also suited to the english.
Digressing slightly,Iam trying toplay the anglo for half an hour a day,today,I tried a polka [one that works well on the harmonica],and because of the bellows changes couldnt get half the lift that I get with the English,
am I unusual,or incompetent,are polkas difficult on the anglo?
QUOTE (dick miles @ Oct 30 2008, 01:35 PM)
QUOTE
Digressing slightly,Iam trying toplay the anglo for half an hour a day,today,I tried a polka [one that works well on the harmonica],and because of the bellows changes couldnt get half the lift that I get with the English,
am I unusual,or incompetent,are polkas difficult on the anglo?
am I unusual,or incompetent,are polkas difficult on the anglo?
Ha Ha we all have our problems eh Dick.
Of course I'm not struggling with lift, I'm searching for a nice even flow of notes & at the moment I'm struggling with the air to that Ballad 'The Blacksmith', in E right now.
I'm trying hard to get my third fingers in on the action & teach them to find the right wee buttons on those 'far out man', outside rows ....... Arrrrrgg!
Funny thing is though, I find Polkas nice & easy on an Anglo.
Why do I get this strange feeling though, that your now going to tell me that The Blacksmith in E, is a walk in the park for you, on the English?
I guess it's the challenge that keeps us going Dick.
Cheers
Dick
I have got my polka sorted,I needed to play some pull g s,and play a pull e and then a pull d.
hey, I never play in e major,I always cop out and play in f or e flat,or is the tune in a mode,there are a couple of different tunes to the blacksmith
.theonly sharp keys i use are g d and a,
I prefer the flat keys,bflat aflat f ,e flat.if your tune is in emajor try it in e flat,one of the peculirities of the english is that you have eflat and aflat duplicated on different sides,that gives you more options fingering wise in these keys.whereas in e major you only have g# duplicated
Cheers
Dick
There's a lot I could say about this topic but I can't match Ptarm and Larry for diplomacy so will refrain, for the benefit of all concerned. However I feel compelled to point out that - generally speaking - a roll is not the same as a classical turn at all at all.
My understanding is that rolls originated, not on the fiddle, but on whistle and pipes. There, the grace notes are basically used as articulations between notes of the same pitch. So to take a "long roll" on the first note of the Kesh jig, you could notate it in ABC as G{A}G{F#}G. The A (which on whistle for example could just as easily be a B or a C#) and the F# (which could just as easily be an E or a D) are not notes to be discerned as such, but blips to separate three quavers (that's eighth notes, Mark).
If the pitch of these grace notes is discernible, or if they are too long, then yes you will end up with something sounding like a turn - and not a roll.
As Dick will probably point out, some fiddlers do play rolls in a more turn-like fashion, a notable example being Michael Coleman. But among modern fiddlers such players are a small minority.
As others have said, playing an instrument like concertina or accordion you are better off finding a sequence of buttons that will give the desired rhythmic effect than trying to play the notes that fiddlers or players of any other instrument would. On accordion for example, many modern players have twigged that you'll get something much more effective by playing G{B}G.G (with no second grace note, but a repeat press of the G button). Incidentally I believe this way of emulating rolls is copied from early concertina players.
Cheers
Steve
My understanding is that rolls originated, not on the fiddle, but on whistle and pipes. There, the grace notes are basically used as articulations between notes of the same pitch. So to take a "long roll" on the first note of the Kesh jig, you could notate it in ABC as G{A}G{F#}G. The A (which on whistle for example could just as easily be a B or a C#) and the F# (which could just as easily be an E or a D) are not notes to be discerned as such, but blips to separate three quavers (that's eighth notes, Mark).
If the pitch of these grace notes is discernible, or if they are too long, then yes you will end up with something sounding like a turn - and not a roll.
As Dick will probably point out, some fiddlers do play rolls in a more turn-like fashion, a notable example being Michael Coleman. But among modern fiddlers such players are a small minority.
As others have said, playing an instrument like concertina or accordion you are better off finding a sequence of buttons that will give the desired rhythmic effect than trying to play the notes that fiddlers or players of any other instrument would. On accordion for example, many modern players have twigged that you'll get something much more effective by playing G{B}G.G (with no second grace note, but a repeat press of the G button). Incidentally I believe this way of emulating rolls is copied from early concertina players.
Cheers
Steve
QUOTE (ZiziAllaire @ Oct 30 2008, 10:29 AM)
There's a lot I could say about this topic but I can't match Ptarm and Larry for diplomacy so will refrain, for the benefit of all concerned. However I feel compelled to point out that - generally speaking - a roll is not the same as a classical turn at all at all.
My understanding is that rolls originated, not on the fiddle, but on whistle and pipes. There, the grace notes are basically used as articulations between notes of the same pitch. So to take a "long roll" on the first note of the Kesh jig, you could notate it in ABC as G{A}G{F#}G. The A (which on whistle for example could just as easily be a B or a C#) and the F# (which could just as easily be an E or a D) are not notes to be discerned as such, but blips to separate three quavers (that's eighth notes, Mark).
If the pitch of these grace notes is discernible, or if they are too long, then yes you will end up with something sounding like a turn - and not a roll.
As Dick will probably point out, some fiddlers do play rolls in a more turn-like fashion, a notable example being Michael Coleman. But among modern fiddlers such players are a small minority.
As others have said, playing an instrument like concertina or accordion you are better off finding a sequence of buttons that will give the desired rhythmic effect than trying to play the notes that fiddlers or players of any other instrument would. On accordion for example, many modern players have twigged that you'll get something much more effective by playing G{B}G.G (with no second grace note, but a repeat press of the G button). Incidentally I believe this way of emulating rolls is copied from early concertina players.
Cheers
Steve
well as far as I am concerned playing rolls like micheal coleman,is acceptable,the easiest way to do this [imo],on the english concertina is to use stronger fingers,so if the player was rolling on the high d,left hand side of the english,the easiest thing to do is cut the note twice,with eMy understanding is that rolls originated, not on the fiddle, but on whistle and pipes. There, the grace notes are basically used as articulations between notes of the same pitch. So to take a "long roll" on the first note of the Kesh jig, you could notate it in ABC as G{A}G{F#}G. The A (which on whistle for example could just as easily be a B or a C#) and the F# (which could just as easily be an E or a D) are not notes to be discerned as such, but blips to separate three quavers (that's eighth notes, Mark).
If the pitch of these grace notes is discernible, or if they are too long, then yes you will end up with something sounding like a turn - and not a roll.
As Dick will probably point out, some fiddlers do play rolls in a more turn-like fashion, a notable example being Michael Coleman. But among modern fiddlers such players are a small minority.
As others have said, playing an instrument like concertina or accordion you are better off finding a sequence of buttons that will give the desired rhythmic effect than trying to play the notes that fiddlers or players of any other instrument would. On accordion for example, many modern players have twigged that you'll get something much more effective by playing G{B}G.G (with no second grace note, but a repeat press of the G button). Incidentally I believe this way of emulating rolls is copied from early concertina players.
Cheers
Steve
this should be acceptable,as it has been argued that the note cutting doesnt matter.,and it becomes easier to get the blip effect.
I have been experimenting with this in the concertina reel., and it can sound ok [imo],but i still prefer to play a d followed by a d low d octave triplet,or a d low f# d triplet.
so does it matter,if to get a more rhthymic effect,you cut with the same note twice?.it seems to create a better effect.
another alternative,is to play four notes of the same pitch,but the first one like a grace note to the second and the third one like a grace note to the fourth,this is done by rolling different fingers preferably the strongest two,across the button.
steves suggestion[ g b gg]sounds good,but on the english might be better [gagg].icant make a judgementwithjout trying it out.
thanks Steve for your suggestion
QUOTE (dick miles @ Oct 30 2008, 01:43 PM)
QUOTE (ZiziAllaire @ Oct 30 2008, 10:29 AM)
There's a lot I could say about this topic but I can't match Ptarm and Larry for diplomacy so will refrain, for the benefit of all concerned. However I feel compelled to point out that - generally speaking - a roll is not the same as a classical turn at all at all.
My understanding is that rolls originated, not on the fiddle, but on whistle and pipes. There, the grace notes are basically used as articulations between notes of the same pitch. So to take a "long roll" on the first note of the Kesh jig, you could notate it in ABC as G{A}G{F#}G. The A (which on whistle for example could just as easily be a B or a C#) and the F# (which could just as easily be an E or a D) are not notes to be discerned as such, but blips to separate three quavers (that's eighth notes, Mark).
If the pitch of these grace notes is discernible, or if they are too long, then yes you will end up with something sounding like a turn - and not a roll.
As Dick will probably point out, some fiddlers do play rolls in a more turn-like fashion, a notable example being Michael Coleman. But among modern fiddlers such players are a small minority.
As others have said, playing an instrument like concertina or accordion you are better off finding a sequence of buttons that will give the desired rhythmic effect than trying to play the notes that fiddlers or players of any other instrument would. On accordion for example, many modern players have twigged that you'll get something much more effective by playing G{B}G.G (with no second grace note, but a repeat press of the G button). Incidentally I believe this way of emulating rolls is copied from early concertina players.
Cheers
Steve
well as far as I am concerned playing rolls like micheal coleman,is acceptable,the easiest way to do this [imo],on the english concertina is to use stronger fingers,so if the player was rolling on the high d,left hand side of the english,the easiest thing to do is cut the note twice,with eMy understanding is that rolls originated, not on the fiddle, but on whistle and pipes. There, the grace notes are basically used as articulations between notes of the same pitch. So to take a "long roll" on the first note of the Kesh jig, you could notate it in ABC as G{A}G{F#}G. The A (which on whistle for example could just as easily be a B or a C#) and the F# (which could just as easily be an E or a D) are not notes to be discerned as such, but blips to separate three quavers (that's eighth notes, Mark).
If the pitch of these grace notes is discernible, or if they are too long, then yes you will end up with something sounding like a turn - and not a roll.
As Dick will probably point out, some fiddlers do play rolls in a more turn-like fashion, a notable example being Michael Coleman. But among modern fiddlers such players are a small minority.
As others have said, playing an instrument like concertina or accordion you are better off finding a sequence of buttons that will give the desired rhythmic effect than trying to play the notes that fiddlers or players of any other instrument would. On accordion for example, many modern players have twigged that you'll get something much more effective by playing G{B}G.G (with no second grace note, but a repeat press of the G button). Incidentally I believe this way of emulating rolls is copied from early concertina players.
Cheers
Steve
this should be acceptable,as it has been argued that the note cutting doesnt matter.,and it becomes easier to get the blip effect.
I have been experimenting with this in the concertina reel., and it can sound ok [imo],but i still prefer to play a d followed by a d low d octave triplet,or a d low f# d triplet.
so does it matter,if to get a more rhthymic effect,you cut with the same note twice?.it seems to create a better effect.
another alternative,is to play four notes of the same pitch,but the first one like a grace note to the second and the third one like a grace note to the fourth,this is done by rolling different fingers preferably the strongest two,across the button.
steves suggestion[ g b gg]sounds good,but on the english might be better [gagg].icant make a judgementwithjout trying it out.
thanks Steve for your suggestion
on reflection gg[two semiquavers]gg[two quavers]and g [quaver]gg[semiquavers]and g quaver,all work,providing you cross finger,otherwise its too staccato[imo].
Deja vu! While reading your post Steve I felt as if I were learning French again 
. I did finally get it.... mostly (the French I mean).
I'll have to hear a roll played as you discribe to understand. Tuesday I'll ask for a clear demonstration between a turn and a roll. We've a good piper, an excellent flautist and my dear Connie the fiddler who all manage to spend a couple of months a year in Ireland. They'll enjoy helping ole Roly-Poly in his quest for enlightenment.
I appreciate the translation of the quavers. Damnation! Them's such fine soundin' terms. My favorite is still demisemiquaver...or is it demesemiquaver. Oh well, just hit the high spots and paint over the rest .
. I did finally get it.... mostly (the French I mean). I'll have to hear a roll played as you discribe to understand. Tuesday I'll ask for a clear demonstration between a turn and a roll. We've a good piper, an excellent flautist and my dear Connie the fiddler who all manage to spend a couple of months a year in Ireland. They'll enjoy helping ole Roly-Poly in his quest for enlightenment.
I appreciate the translation of the quavers. Damnation! Them's such fine soundin' terms. My favorite is still demisemiquaver...or is it demesemiquaver. Oh well, just hit the high spots and paint over the rest
.
Well there's always the hemi-demi-semiquaver you know.
If you can't wait until Tuesday you'll find explanations and demonstrations of the kind of roll I'm talking about in a series of pages on my site for whistle learners.
If you can't wait until Tuesday you'll find explanations and demonstrations of the kind of roll I'm talking about in a series of pages on my site for whistle learners.
QUOTE (ZiziAllaire @ Oct 30 2008, 02:26 PM)
Well there's always the hemi-demi-semiquaver you know.
If you can't wait until Tuesday you'll find explanations and demonstrations of the kind of roll I'm talking about in a series of pages on my site for whistle learners.
If you can't wait until Tuesday you'll find explanations and demonstrations of the kind of roll I'm talking about in a series of pages on my site for whistle learners.
Dunno, I think I'd like to hear one first...nice, clear explanations though. You see, I'm an American and a Southerner; seeing fleetingly the dabla thing reminded me of Dubbya, our fearless decider. I come here not to think of that and then I get to thinkin' on that dolt and consider drinking at work
Uh, maybe asking about rolls this coming Tuesday ain't such a good idea for we'll all most likely be well oiled at Stones and praying for a sea change. The call for roll help goes out now to the Stoners. Someone will likely roll by the house and instruct me. Bet I won't be able to do it, but I'll know what I can't do
!
there is room for variety of style,to dismiss Micheal Colemans style of roll playing, because he is not a modern fiddler,is going to lead to a standardisation,which will ultimately be to the detriment of the music[imo].
this is the problem that Comhaltas presents,music has to be played a certain way to win a competition.
and those people that state that rolls should only be played in one way,need to reassess their position[imo].why not both ways?to my ears the melodic roll is as valid as the more modern one.
zizi, asserts that accordion players play [gbgg] why?
is it because that is all they can do on a bc button accordion,because if they played gagg there would be a jerk in the middle of the phrase,if that is the case, it is no reason to copy it on a concertina.,because it is being done because of the instruments limitation.
all three concertina systems can play gagg without a bellows reversal,[once the player takes on crossrowing on the anglo].
I agree gbgg sounds fine ,so do the other options I suggested.
as far as I am concerned,the more experimentation and the more variety of ornamentation,and even variety of keys, the better the music sounds.[try playing in b flat sometime it has only two flats]
I get the impression,a lot of listeners are put off by wall to wall reels,thats understandable,how many musicians when they are playing at a session,consider the audience in the pub,do they think about the overall sound,do they think about playing jigs reels hornpipes slides polkas,alternately,do they think about interspersing a song occassionally,or are the musicians forgetting that to some extent it is entertainment,and that the landlord needs people in his pub other than the musicians to make it viable,and that the general public find wall to wall reels boring.
this is the problem that Comhaltas presents,music has to be played a certain way to win a competition.
and those people that state that rolls should only be played in one way,need to reassess their position[imo].why not both ways?to my ears the melodic roll is as valid as the more modern one.
zizi, asserts that accordion players play [gbgg] why?
is it because that is all they can do on a bc button accordion,because if they played gagg there would be a jerk in the middle of the phrase,if that is the case, it is no reason to copy it on a concertina.,because it is being done because of the instruments limitation.
all three concertina systems can play gagg without a bellows reversal,[once the player takes on crossrowing on the anglo].
I agree gbgg sounds fine ,so do the other options I suggested.
as far as I am concerned,the more experimentation and the more variety of ornamentation,and even variety of keys, the better the music sounds.[try playing in b flat sometime it has only two flats]
I get the impression,a lot of listeners are put off by wall to wall reels,thats understandable,how many musicians when they are playing at a session,consider the audience in the pub,do they think about the overall sound,do they think about playing jigs reels hornpipes slides polkas,alternately,do they think about interspersing a song occassionally,or are the musicians forgetting that to some extent it is entertainment,and that the landlord needs people in his pub other than the musicians to make it viable,and that the general public find wall to wall reels boring.
another possibility, I might use in the first bar of the kesh jig,is a staccato tripet ggg,but with either a low d or low g,held underneath it,this reduces the staccto effect,basically this is a melodic varation.
or gag with a low d underneath it.
or gag with a low d underneath it.
QUOTE (dick miles @ Oct 31 2008, 07:14 AM)
another possibility, I might use in the first bar of the kesh jig,is a staccato tripet ggg,but with either a low d or low g,held underneath it,this reduces the staccto effect,basically this is a melodic varation.
or gag with a low d underneath it.
or gag with a low d underneath it.
Got your work cut out for you, then, Dick - enjoy yourself!
QUOTE (ZiziAllaire @ Oct 31 2008, 07:33 AM)
QUOTE (dick miles @ Oct 31 2008, 07:14 AM)
another possibility, I might use in the first bar of the kesh jig,is a staccato tripet ggg,but with either a low d or low g,held underneath it,this reduces the staccto effect,basically this is a melodic varation.
or gag with a low d underneath it.
or gag with a low d underneath it.
Got your work cut out for you, then, Dick - enjoy yourself!
I found something that was more satisfactory in reels [with one finger doing the same note cutting[not sure if this isnt really a trill],.
My "Calling all Stoners" yeilded results:
Brian the banjo sent me two images; a basket of rolls and a bunch of road signs suggesting I eat the first and follow the second later he did send a diagram which is a turn.
Greg the multi instrumentalist said: If it's my turn I play, if it's your turn, you play. Rolls are what Stones should offer with the meatloaf (he's right on the money with that last bit).
Pelham the piper gave me a detailed discription of cuts, taps and what an' all...way more than I wanted to know about the pipes and it's limitations and suggested I read a link from Grey Larsen which was cool. He ended by saying he had decided to be helpful, for he'd rather slag me in person.
Connie the fiddler was very serious and gave me some interesting suggestions about long and short rolls, regional differences et al.
Jim the fiddler said "Michael Coleman old fashioned? Who knew?"
In the end, I don't think it has anything to do with the Tarty Tina and ole Roly-Poly. We will continue being mule headed and contrary. A turn is a turn and will be employed on occation. A roll is to be listened to, or eaten with butter.
One observation sitting next to a piper week after week: They are a special breed to undertake mastering an instrument that needs to be mucked about with, pumpin' with one arm, squeezing with the other, trying to keep ones fingers not involved with that other business, all the while praying some leak doesn't crop up somewhere and worried about atmospheric conditions sharping or flating out the instrument causing the concertinist next to them to scowl, snort, put down his instrument and wander off in search of another pint. Were it me, I'd need intervention, rehab and a good stout staff to beat the concertinist with.
Brian the banjo sent me two images; a basket of rolls and a bunch of road signs suggesting I eat the first and follow the second
later he did send a diagram which is a turn.Greg the multi instrumentalist said: If it's my turn I play, if it's your turn, you play. Rolls are what Stones should offer with the meatloaf (he's right on the money with that last bit).
Pelham the piper gave me a detailed discription of cuts, taps and what an' all...way more than I wanted to know about the pipes and it's limitations and suggested I read a link from Grey Larsen which was cool. He ended by saying he had decided to be helpful, for he'd rather slag me in person.
Connie the fiddler was very serious and gave me some interesting suggestions about long and short rolls, regional differences et al.
Jim the fiddler said "Michael Coleman old fashioned? Who knew?"
In the end, I don't think it has anything to do with the Tarty Tina and ole Roly-Poly. We will continue being mule headed and contrary. A turn is a turn and will be employed on occation. A roll is to be listened to, or eaten with butter.
One observation sitting next to a piper week after week: They are a special breed to undertake mastering an instrument that needs to be mucked about with, pumpin' with one arm, squeezing with the other, trying to keep ones fingers not involved with that other business, all the while praying some leak doesn't crop up somewhere and worried about atmospheric conditions sharping or flating out the instrument causing the concertinist next to them to scowl, snort, put down his instrument and wander off in search of another pint. Were it me, I'd need intervention, rehab and a good stout staff to beat the concertinist with.
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