Just a thought, but another forum where I spend a fair bit of time, Sound on Sound, has recently opened a Newbies subforum. This has proved a great success by being a first stop for the easier questions and reducing the traffic in the general forum where otherwise all such questions go. I find myself wondering if it might work as well here.

Chris

It could be deja vu all over again, but I could swear this idea came up once and Paul had some interesting reaction to it (what it was of course I don't recall). I'll try to remember to check on it.

Ken

or maybe a FAQ for newbies might be good.

with answers to questions like "I'm on a budget what concertina should I get" etc.

But who would write the answers? We're a pretty contentious bunch here...

There's also a very good FAQ already out there, the venerable Concertina FAQ from Chris Timson, who started this thread (though it hasn't been updated in a while): http://www.concertina.info.

Daniel

Yes, there is. Lot's of information.
On a newbie forum. When you ask a question, you don't want only newbies to answer it, what's the point? You want some advanced newbie, who still remembers the beginnings, to answer, and you want a seasoned player, who knows, where it will come to, to answer, and you want occasional maestro to join in, to verify or dispute seasoned player's opinion. Newbie forum will only give a newbie false feeling of safety and inhibit his learning. I'd say, critique, tear apart and offer solutions. No neutral positivity, please. It will only insure that those who can play - will, those who can't - will never learn.

As a sample answer:

I'm on a budget what concertina should I get?

As this is traditionally a pirate instrument, I would recommend going to a large inexpensive or free festival (examples: Dublin Irish Festival or Portsmouth Maritime Festival) where concertina players are likely to congregate and liberate a nice box. I would concentrate on a neglected instrument that is in hard case, as usually only cheaper instruments are to be found in soft cases. Then just pick it up and walk away. I don't recommend burying your newly acquired treasure, as people will wonder as to why there is newly turned dirt on the grounds. This method should help you to get a reasonable concertina, though it is not guaranteed. Likewise, the type and brand of concertina you have just pillaged also cannot be guaranteed, which means you may end up with an English or a duet when you wanted the superior Anglo style. Look at it this way matey, you got a concertina on a budget. Sort of like that time when you wanted a catchers mitt for your birthday and grandma bought a miniature fielders glove sized for a five year old. Live with it.

Sound advice.
Simple and elegant.

I would hate to see newbies isolated in any way. Let them jump in feet first, this is the most friendly, welcoming forum on the web!

Thank You

The problem isn't the neophytes per se, it's those among them that ask the same old question, time after time, without ever checking to see if it's already been done ad nauseam.

There is no need for anyone to ever ask the 'What sort of concertina for a beginner?'; the info's there to be read in the forums. (Including the 'Why don't you give us a clue as to what you want to play and how much money you have?' standard first response...) I suspect most people who are too idle to do this sort of background research are wasting everyone's time anyway.

I don't think it needs a separate forum so much as a 'You can't post here for the first time until the system has registered that you performed a search.' function.

(Thinks "I wonder what my first post was?")

Well, so much for the "most friendly, welcoming forum on the web".....

When you search for such a question...it comes up with a million threads and for a newbie this looks rather daunting and I suppose they may want a 'custom' answer.

This was the original intent of the Buyer's Guide, most of which is between 3 and 8 years old. While I always enjoyed working on it, we found it was a lot of work to keep up; I still tinker with it a little now and then. My impression over recent years is that a lot of new people never look at it, perhaps because of the disclaimer we have up there (go to forum for latest information!). Hmmm...a trip full circle.

Ken

I've tried using the search function many times and have yet to get reasonable results. I think there is something seriously wrong with the way it functions.

-- Rich --

I read it before hand but I found the guide US biased...I needed up to date uk prices. So that's why I posted on the forum.


Yeah that search engine is rubbish. I can never find anything becuase it gives me a million results.

Search is useless, but articles outside of the Forum are good. Problem is, we want quick answer without bothering with lengthy research. Usually we think: "hmm, nice little instrument, let's see the price". And we type "concertina sale". Oh, it's only $100! Cool! Well, now let's be serious and ask the forum (I'm sure there's one somewhere). Oh, here's the one. "Hey guys, whadaya think of this cool consmenrtinah? Is it good? I mean, I know it's a beginner's, but I just want bla bla bla, but tell me, if I can bla bla bla (and I have already spent good half an hour researching!)?
So it's OK to have same questions over and over, but not necessarily OK to answer them publicly. PM is the way to go.

Come off it, Daniel; we aren't talking to one of them now, we're discussing how best to deal with them. I hope I've been as patient as everyone else definitely is with the new boys, but are you going to tell me you've never thought 'We did this one only last week' as you type that the Rochelle is probably best bet and not to touch a Chinese cheapy with a barge pole?

And I get away easy, in most cases after the first few 'Well, what DO you want?' exchanges I can honourably duck out and leave it to someone else, not being qualified to speak on Anglos, folk, Englishes...

Could it be that a search on the basic beginner questions gets thousands of results because the same question is being asked and answered thousands of times? It certainly feels like it. Better the question is answered nicely, than to put someone off, I agree, but it does get repetitive and seems like a waste of everyone's good intentions. Perhaps 'cut and paste' is the answer?

Why do you assume that "they" wouldn't read a thread titled "Newbies Forum", see your post and think "perhaps I just shouldn't ask my question"? And new players' situations often vary, so the old answers don't always apply.

These "newbie" threads are only a waste of your time if you choose to participate in them and resent it. I personally don't mind answering these questions, even if they're repeats. There are plenty of other threads (e.g. "Mornington Crescent") that don't interest me and I don't read -- but I don't begrudge the space that they take up.

The search function doesn't always work well. It works fine if you're looking for an unusual, specific term (like "baffles" or "Nickolds") but not so well for something like this. How exactly would you construct a search for this question?

As a double newbie, whose elementary questions were indeed answered nicely, and in a most welcoming manner, let me add my perspective. By double newbie, I mean that I am new both to the concertina, and on-line forums such as this. I suspect from some comments I've seen in various threads (even from some non-newbies) that not everyone on this forum is super-comfortable with the technology (and etiquitte). In fact, I'd bet this board harbours more than its fair share of card carrying Luddites!

I think an up-dated and clearly labelled FAQs, or "Newbies read this first " page would be a good idea. I found the home page a little bewildering at first, and the info contained appeared out-of-date (eg Rochelle is not really discussed in Buyer's Guide). And the search function didn't seem to work very well for me.


But I would discourage anything that limited the mingling of the tyros and old hands. I have noticed that with the patient forebearance of the veterans, newbies here do seem to get up to speed pretty quickly!

I have never seen us overloaded with requests for information from newbies. Its not like we get a hundered a day, or month or year even. There is always someone who is willing to welcome a new member and answer their questions. They then feel that they have been accepted to the forum and are more likely to continue participating. If one doesn't want to answer the same old questions, just skip the thread trusting that someone else will be there to provide the requested information.

Maybe a bit of housekeeping might solve that problem, and instead of a newbie forum have an 'archive' section for older threads.


(I'm joined to about 10 forums and comment regularly on about 5 of them and moderate/admin 2) So I'm not what you would call a newbie to forums. lol! But I still find the search function useless.

Chris,
I agree with most of the precious "speakers" on this motion, who don't really see any benefit in a Newbie Forum. The FAQ alternative has also been mentioned, and here, too, I agree that FAQs are usually out of date and can be misleading. Especially on prices and new developments, e.g. Rochelle & Co.
I believe that the way to become a concertinist is to rub shoulders with concertinists. And a few of us have only recently emerged from the newbie stage ourselves, and are proud to be able to give someone else the benefit of our newly-acquired wisdom.

And anyway, what's a newbie?

Someone who's seen a neat little instrument, knows it's called a concertina, and wants to learn more? Let him read through the General Questions section.

Or is it someone who's inherited a run-down concertina and might like to have it done up, or do it up himself? Let him ask on Construction and Repair.

Or has he handled a concertina, tried it out, liked it, learned to play it a little, and decided to get one of his own? Go to Buy and Sell!

Or has someone bought a concertian and tutor, and doesn't seem to be making progress, despite enthusiasm? Teaching and Learning is the place to go.

Others might want to know what this newly-discovered instrument can be used for before embarking on the adventure - they can do this in Videos and Music.

Basically, each existing sub-forum is suitable for some newbie! The newbies are as different as we are - we don't all have to look after each newbie!
And I've never seen a newbie question ignored since I've been in the forum.

Cheers,
John

The reason I suggested it is that on those forums I use that have adopted it, it works well. I can't see why it would not work equally as well here. But that's the pragmatic approach, and that's never been all that popular.

One day in ancient Greece a bunch of philosophers were arguing about how many teeth there were in the mouth of a horse. One would say a number together with good reasons to support it, than another would propound a diffwerent number. The argument got heated and eventually they collared a passer by and put all their arguments to him and asked him to decide. He thought for a moment, then left the room. A few mintes later he returned and gave them the correct answer (between 36 and 44, depending on age, if you're interested). They asked him what reasoning had convinced him of this. "Reason be damned", he replied, "I've just been out and counted 'em".

With regard to the FAQ, yes, in some areas it is definitely been getting a bit long in the tooth (hah!). I've been meaning to give it a complete overhaul for a little while, it's just a question of finding the time. But it will happen.

Chris

Well I'm sure with everyone's help it would take less time.
Anything I could help with?

So who's going to count the horse's teeth and how?
chris

I wonder if he would have counted the teeth if they had been discussing how many a lion had lol

Thanks for the offer, but I just need time to rethink and rewite some of the sections. I have thought of asking for help, and will do if I find I just don't have the time to do it properly.


Fancy you not knowing that!

Chris

Fancy you not knowing that!
Doh

chris (other)
this made no sense due to me missing Mr Timsons name off the quote. Sorry 'bout that

Chris,
What about a "breathing" FAQ?

What I mean is technically a sub-forum to which anyone can append, with a title like "Beginners' Info" or "All you ever wanted to know about the concertina but were too embarrassed to ask" (preferably the former )

When someone recalls a problem he or she had at the start, they could start a new topic. Or if a newbie asks an interesting question on one of the main sub-forums, the answer, or a collective answer, could be copied to a new topic in the "beginners' Info". Similarly when news comes up that might interest newbies, like a new entry-level concertina, or a teaching DVD.

Being a sub-forum the newest topics would be at the top, so any topical info, like prices, would be read before the outdated posts. Also, if the FAQ answers generated more questions than knowledge, a posting asking for clarification would be indicated in the index.

This would solve one newbie problem: on a forum with such heavy taffic as c.net, topics percolate down off the first screen pretty quickly. As a newcomer, you may arrive just after some info that would have been helpful to you has been debated at length and disappeared down the list. A Beginners' sub-forum could keep it visible.

Just some thoughts,
Cheers,
John

I for one did not mean to imply that I was against the idea of a forum along these lines. If one were set up I would participate in replying to questions that are within my areas of knowledge.

Daniel

That would meet many of the aims of a Newbies forum as I would see them, so far as I can see, with perhaps a less condescending name. I would certainly welcome it. Let us hope our esteemed administrators agree. Ken and Paul, pretty please?

Chris

Easy enough to start a new topic on Learning forum, called "The Newbies questions". See how many people will go there. There is always a way to improvise by yourself and get the result. No need to wait for somebody to make it happen for you.
Funny that I (been from initiative challenged culture) should mention it.

You? Initiative challenged? Nay, nay, come come!

Chris

PS the reason why a forum may be desirable rather than a thread is that threads disappear if not used much. A newbies thread could be very popular, and yet if not used for one period of a few weeks would sink out of sight under the weight of later threads, and many newbies appear to be new to computers and fora as well, with the result that many have never discovered the significance of the search buttons.

Why not just "Pin" the Newbies thread permanently at the top of the page? Another forum I visit (on a non-musical subject) does this, and they use the same software as Concertina.net

on Timelord we have a stikied locked thread
http://timelord.yuku.com/topic/3171
with a introduction for newbies.
do you mean something like that?

Yus.

I agree, and would add that one topic in an existing sub-forum would not make it possible to diferentiate between the varied beginners' information needs, e.g. about instruments, tutors/learning DVDs, suitable music/genres, maintenance, etc., etc., or between English, Anglo and Duet(s).

Cheers,
John

A fair point well made (but then I would say that, wouldn't I?). But unless you had lots of stickies then you would end up with a horrendously long and unwieldy thread. And if you have lots of stickies then you might as well give it a separate forum.

Why not try a Newbies forum for an experimental period - say 3 months. If at the end of it it isn't being used then it could be dropped again.

Chris