Hey, are Anglo players allowed to speak about the English Concertina here?

I've been looking for a Bb/F Anglo recently, in fact I have an option on one in the pipeline.

Now the reason I was looking for a Bf/F is because the guys in our group all sing in F & C.

However, before I commit myself, I'm wondering how easy it is to play along with songs in C & F on an English Concertina?

How easy is it to play the English system after playing the Anglo for nearly 30 years?

How easy is it to play both systems at the same time ... if you know what I mean?

Also, is it simple enough to play tunes fairly quickly in C & F on an English? You see, our Northumbrian piper's pipes are in F.

Cost wise too, am I right in thinking that for the same money I might spend on an OK Bb/F Anglo, I may be able to buy a really good English?

I also like the idea of being able to play big rich chords too.

So many questions ...... so little time!

Cheers
Dick

P.S. Last question .... would Anglo players still speak to me, if I started playing an English Concertina?

Dick,
As an angloist of many years' standing, I have come to a similar crossroads.

My take is that the anglo is very easy and very effective - as long as I get to choose the key. As the number of sharps or flats increases, the capabilities and the ease of playing get less and less. So I have decided to go chromatic!

I have no opportunity to try out different concertina systems, so I've studied the various layouts in detail on paper.
The English concertina seemed too much of a paradigm shift for me, with its left-right-left-right scale. The Maccann duet has a similar zig-zag scale, though on one hand (reminiscent of the "square roll" on the banjo, which I have always found difficult). And the zig-zag seems to be irregular, as opposed to the English zig-zag.
So right now, I'm bidding for a Crane duet on Ebay!
With this system, you play three notes of the scale on one row, then skip to the start of the next row. For an accidental, you take the adjacent button in an outer column.
I decided on this system because it is similar in approach to the fretted stringed instruments, and I have been playing the mandolin even longer than the anglo. We shall see how much skill transfer is possible from the anglo and the mandolin respectively!

I would also hope that the Crane is more amenable to sight-reading than the anglo, because there are no alternate fingerings to take into account. I expect the increase in difficulty from no accidentals to many accidentals to be less, too. And I expect full chording capability in all keys - it's there, I'll just have to work at it.

I have occasionally considered procuring a couple more anglos in different keys, so as to be able to play along properly in many keys - but that's a serious financial and transportation issue!
Cranes (when you can get them) are cheaper than decent anglos, and you only need one of them!

Interested to hear how you decide,
Cheers,
John

Certainly.



Fairly easy



Depends who you are. Ever met Keith Kendrick?



Most Northumbrian pipes seem to be in F-sharpish



Probably not. Win some, lose some, Roger

I swap between English concertina and D/G diatonic accordion all the time and have never experienced any problems at all with regards to getting "confused" between the two scale systems (swapping sides vs in/out). I guess it might be more confusing between Anglo/English, but I doubt if that would be a significant hurdle, assuming you're prepared to put in some work.

I also swap between B/C and D/G boxes, and yes there can be a few seconds of having to find your place, but very quickly your brain just slots into the right mode.

Playing in F on the English "as easy as playing in G" (i.e. one flat compared to one sharp). The only "problem" is that the standard treble range only goes down to G, so the lowest F on a standard English treble is the F above middle-C - rather high when constructing chords. However, many trebles have the lowest G# or Ab modified to be an F (since the original is duplicated). A tenor-treble obviously solves the problem by going down to C below middle-c

I've already told you privately (if you got the message?). Buy a Crane.

Ptarmigan,

On the matter of playing multiple systems, take a look at the comments in the "English v Anglo" thread.

If I had to play something in F, I'd find it easier on English than Anglo, I think. That's because I haven't learned Anglo fingering patterns for that key. Playing English relies less on learned finger patterns.

Thanks for your honest answer John. Like you, I've been playing the Mandolin a lot longer than the Concertina so it all makes perfect sense .... so now, perhaps I shall go & bid on that Crane too ....

Cheers
Dick

Very interesting. Being an Anglo player, I must confess, I'd never even heard of a Tenor/Treble!

Sounds like I would really want to have the option of those lower notes alright.

Thanks for the nod on that good point. I shall bear that in mind.

Cheers
Dick

Och well Roger, if Keith can do it, I suppose anyone can!

But seriously, I'm sure it's all down to how much time I'm prepared to commit to getting it right.

By the way, Sam's N. Pipes are in F alright.

I wonder, is it possible to disguise an English to make it look like an Anglo?

Cheers
Dick

Yes thanks Dirge for your very helpful message.

I'm still poking & prodding around here, just trying to make sure I end up making the right decision.

Unfortunately, I guess those Cranes don't come up very often, do they?

I certainly wouldn't bid against John. .... { I don't want to lose my C.net license !! }

Cheers
Dick

In the case of the standard treble English, the button next to the useful low G is an utterly useless G#. Not a major problem to have it retuned to F, as I have done, to give that low note for songs and tunes in F or Bb.

Dick,
Just take your time and think it over carefully for a couple of days. Like until that auction is over ...

Chris Algar put it this way: he doesn't get them that often, but they're like busses - they come three at a time!

Interesting that you're a mandolinist, too. I think it's that background that made the Crane system go "click" in my mind when I looked closely at it. We often talk about button layouts being "logical" or "illogical" - but what most of us find logical is what follows logically from what we are familiar with. I'm quite sure that an English-concertina player, looking for a duet system, would find the Maccann more logical (because to me, as an angloist and string player, they look similarly illogical).

I'll let you know what it's like learning a Crane with our background when I've won that auction ...

Cheers,
John

I play English most of the time. When I decided I wanted to try a duet it was the Crane, not the Maccann, which looked logical to me. Now it I could only find twice the time to practice so I could master both systems.

Dick asked me about the 71 key Lachenal Maccan I have for sale, and did I think it might suit his playing? I thought that as he accompanies singers and dancers, and, as I understood it, is mostly improvising, the large range was not necessary for him. As I see it there are really 2 reasons for going the Maccan route, with it's much more discouraging starting stages; one is because bigger instruments with greater compass are easily available, and the other is that there are a good choice of high quality instruments about (and at relatively reasonable prices too; £2000 for a good one is a lot of money but look what you'd get in the Anglo world for that).

(I didn't say this to you, Dick but I have a sneaking suspicion that being able to play another concertina system is close to the kiss of death to any chance of succeeding with a Maccan; when you get discouraged you can just slide off to what you knew before. If it's your only instrument you have to slug away, having financially nailed your colours to the mast.)

I suggested to Dick he look at a Crane or even consider ordering a Wakker Hayden and enjoyed the rare luxury of a brand new bespoke instrument. (and I notice that Bob Tedrow also lists a Hayden, Dick) I thought he should definitely get a duet, though. Couldn't see that English gained him nearly so much.

Good Luck John, & yes, I'd be very interested to hear how you get on with the Crane.

Cheers
Dick

Thanks Jon,

That IS very useful to know & it could just swing it for me, going for an English instead of a Tenor/Treble or a Crane.

Cheers
Dick

Hey Larry, if you don't have time to play your Crane ................




Cheers
Dick

Arrrrrrrggg Dirge ... So many Concertinas .. so little time!

I don't know what it's like where you are Dirge but there are no players of Cranes or McCanns or even Duets over here & believe it or not, only one English player that I know of, which is of course a big drawback, cause it'd make life so much easier for me, if I could have a wee rattle on each, before I took the plunge.

Also, not having a large pile of money in my pocket means that I am a little restricted in my choices.

I wonder, does that go for a Tenor/Treble too, Dirge?

Anyway, many thanks to everyone who has replied so far.

It's great to get all these ideas out in the open, to help me choose.

Cheers
Dick

Apparently MacCann duet player are ten a penny in New Zealand.

Hey tallship, aren't pennies themselves, rather rare in New Zealand?

Concertina players are rare here full stop.

Dick,
That's also my position here in Germany. Concertinas of any kind are few and far between, and when you find one, it's an anglo owned by an ITM freak. You'll occasionally find a Stagi English in a big-city shop, if you're lucky. Duet - whazzat?!?



Ditto



As far as I can see, the only difference between treble and tenor-treble is the range. They're like pianos with longer or shorter keyboards - same system, same learning curve.
Range can, of course, be an issue. I decided against a 35-button Crane, which would have been relatively cheap, because it lacks the high A in the treble, which is often needed in dance tunes in D. And there's no "useless" accidental in the neighbourhood that you could retune to an A.

One thought I had about the change of system is that the English and Anglo systems each have their capabilities, but also their limitations. The anglo lets you play melody on the right and accompaniment on the left, which is handy for European music, but the diatonic architecture imposes limitations on harmonising keys other than the main ones. The English gives you full, chromatic melodic capability, but forces both hands to keep swapping between bass and treble for harmonised playing.
So switching from Anglo to English or vice versa would just be swapping one difficulty for another.
The history books tell us that the duets were devised to combine the "treble right, bass left" of the Anglo with the "all notes available simultaneously" of the English. So, to me, the step ahead would be a duet - the English would only be a side-step. After that, it was merely a matter of which duet system to go for. The fact that the Maccann, Crane, Jeffries and Hayden duet systems are all so different actually made the choice pretty easy for me.

One decision aid I used was printing out the various fingering charts at www.concertina.com and trying to play "air concertina" on them!

Hope this helps,
Cheers,
John

Its a shame there isn't a virtual concertina online to try....or practice on.

http://www.id-werbeagentur.com/concertina/

Sebastian

wow! that's cool. Thanks Sebastian.

It's useless. Better chance to actually learn what it feels like is to print chart of buttons with notes on them, and, having laid them side by side on the table, "play" a tune or two.

That's brilliant Sebastian.

I was able to check out exactly where the low G is & where that 'useless' G# is!

Thanks for posting that.

Now if only I could work two mice at the same time on this screen, I could probably even play a tune on that dude.

Cheers
Dick

Hmm. What the English will definitely do is to teach a player to be economical and deliberate with the choice of accompaniment.
Less is more.
A Duet system may fool one to think it's a strangely shaped piano. As a listener, I would vote for English, then for Anglo, then for Duet in terms of listenability. But it's suggestive and I'm yet to produce my version of "Fly around, my little Miss" by Jody, composed for the Anglo, and Bony's waltz, played on Hayden Duet.
And I haven't even touched my English in 4 weeks, so I better shut up.

Yes.

Incidentally I never claimed it to be 'usefull'.

Sebastian

Interesting you should say that, because this very evening I finally made up my mind!

I decided to follow Jon's advice & have ordered a beautiful Wheatstone, with the low G# tuned down to F.

I have a few photos of it, but I'll resist the temptation to post those until I finally have this little beauty in
my hands.

Thanks again for all your very helpful advice guys.

It made my decision so much easier.

You can be sure I'll be asking loads of ... how do you do this & how do you do that ... kinds of questions, next door, very soon!

Cheers
Dick

Dick,
Congratulations!

I agree - this forum is a wonderful place for advice in a situation like you and I were in recently. Lots of first-hand knowledge, but little ideology. I also have the impression that it's a good place for a beginner to be, but you and I will be finding that out by experience in the days, weeks, months ... years? ... to come, won't we!

Cheers,
John