I've played an English Concertina for some years and have become interested in an Anglo. Is an Anglo harder to learn than an English; also, once learned, is it easier than an English to play? Would the fact I can play an English get in the way of learning the Anglo?

My interest has been prompted by a trip to Ireland where the punchier sound of the Anglo definitely appealed.

Also (treading on dangerous ground here as it's a bit 'off topic'!), in terms of difficulty which is harder to learn - the Anglo Concertina or a Button Accordion (Melodeon)? I guess you can see where I'm going with this one.

Many thanks, Chris

Actually, you don't need a new thread on this, there are a dozen old ones. This is very emotional territory for some, so I will step out of the way after reminding everyone here to keep it friendly. To sum up, as Chris Timson puts it, all instruments can be used to play all music. You have to decide your priorities/needs/distractability. There is no consensus on things like "harder to learn" as it is completely individual.

Ken
(standing aside)

Hi Chris,
I started out on the English and played it for years. Then I heard the Anglo and fell in love with it.
I wouldn't say it is harder to play than the English cncdertina. It is equally hard to become adept
on any melody instrument. But it has some challenges that the English doesn't have. I am delighted
to be playing Anglo and don't feel that my having played the English gets in the way.
I also find that the Anglo presents more challenges than the button accordion, but it is more satisfying
to play -- for me, anyway. I'd say to go with the sound you like and don't think of problems before they
arise. If it was all easy everybody would be playing...
David

Apologies for the repetition, Ken. I did find various discussions, but nothing I felt that was wholly specific. Then again, given what subjective thing it is that I'm asking, it's probably unrealistic of me to have found an 'absolute' answer.



I guess that is probably true when the instruments are similar, such as the Anglo and Concertina. But I bet piano is harder to learn than a penny whistle :-)

Regards, Chris

I realise that you are joking but actually it is not. It is easier (for some people at least) to hack out a simple melody with one hand on piano than whistle. The trouble is that this is so easy you are expected to do something different with the other hand.

Like everyone has already said, some instruments are easier for some things. The easy one for you is the one you get on well with.

That was always my problem..melody was fine..just couldn't get my other hand to do chords.

I know several people who play both systems, so I don't think that knowing English would necessarily get in the way of learning Anglo for you. But which is easier seems to depend on the way your brain works. Some people (including me) find alternating hands as you go up the scale, as on English, to be too weird to master. Others find a system where each button plays different notes on push and pull, as on an Anglo or a diatonic button accordion, to be just as problematic for them. I suspect that the only way for you to find out what's true for you is to try it out.

Daniel

All Concertina systems are brilliant in terms of compactness and logic of the keyboard for particular type of music they were designed for.
I wouldn't necessarily call concertinas "melody instruments", as they are equally capable of been "harmony instruments".
So to master the keyboard of any kind of concertina is not a big deal, it's only the matter of some short time.
But to master the sound of a concertina is tremendously more difficult, then of an accordion. Concertina's tone is simple, single and right in your face, it's not masked by another reed a few cents sharp, not painted by octave high reed, not supported by the whole bucket of 4 reeds for wall of sound, there is no heavy bass/chord helping hand. You play a chord a little longer - and your concertina becomes an automobile horn, play melody notes a little shorter - it begins to squack. It's small and has little air in the bellows, it's very sensitive and needs mastering of bellows control. You push buttons directly towards the bellows and each push can add a little "Whack" to the bellows, making sound unmusical.
Tough luck.

Chris,

I've played English concertina for 24 years, button accordion (C#/D) for about 10 years, and Anglo concertina (C/G) for almost five years. I also have a piano background that goes back, well, let's just say a lot longer than I've played English.

Of my three squeezeboxes, English was the easiest to learn, Anglo the hardest. Five years in, I have a lot to learn on Anglo -- but I love it and now devote almost all of my playing time to it. Not coincidentally, my musical interests are pretty focused these days on Irish traditional music; that was not the case 20 years ago.

I don't think that playing one type is an impediment to playing another (nor is it an advantage). I think it's good for my brain to maintain agility on both concertina systems. Sometimes at a session I'll pick up someone's English, and it will then take me a moment to "reboot" my brain, but things fall into place fairly easily.

Occasionally when stuck in a boring work meeting, I'll challenge myself to play "air concertina," imagining how I would finger a tune on one system, then on the other.

I think I've been given sufficient encouragement to give it a try - certainly nobody has cautioned against it which is encouraging. Like you, Michael, it is Irish traditional music that has prompted my interest in the Anglo; suddenly the English sounds 'boring' to me.

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Regards, Chris

I play Irish music on English concertina for many years now, and although I was often advised to turn to Anglo instead I never did. I find the challenge of producing a sound on my EC that suits Irish music as good as any music made by an AC quite interesting. In fact playing Irish music on an AC would be too easy (for me); there are zillions doing that already, and there are only very few that can make convincing good Irish music on an EC.
First of all you need a powerfull instrument, my metal ended Wheatstone Aeola proved best (till now). They are not cheap but probably still cheaper as most good vintage AC concertina's. Then you go and explore....
But I am in no way trying to keep you from playing an Anglo, just wanted to air some thoughts as the subject interests me a great deal!

P.S. I still need to make recordings My small studio is progressing and I will be able to record soon now..

Good for you, chiton1. I'm sure we will enjoy hearing a sample of your playing.

For inspiration, check out this outstanding example of Irish on English: Paddy Fahy jig. The player also recorded his own bouzouki backing.

On the nail, as usual, Misha!

Compactness is obviously the common denominator of the concertinas. And the small size that calls for compactness also makes the bellows control so decisive. A little change in the applied force does a lot.

As to melody/harmony instruments, I'd even go farther and say that the German diatonic system, as in the Anglo-German concertina, seems most logical from the point of view of harmony playing. No wonder, because the German popular music it was designed for was dominated by chording instruments like guitar, zither and cittern, and the musical forms (e.g. waltz) depended on rhythmic chords.

I see the English concertina as a more melody-oriented system. Its background was the English drawing-room, where there was a piano to accompany melody instruments like the violin, so the concertina didn't primarily need chording capability there. Interestingly, the English lower classes, who had no pianos, flocked to the German concertina, and later to the Anglo!

But of course the Anglo can be played melodically, and the English is more amenable to chording than the violin.

"Melodic anglo concertina = ITM," one might say. ITM is fiddle (i.e. violin) music. Why don't ITM musicians like the violin-like English? As Dan Worrel points out ( http://www.concertina.com/worrall/beginnin...eland/index.htm ), it is a quirk of history that the concertina used in Ireland is the Anglo and not the English.

Some say that the Anglo sounds more Irish because it has more "punch" (that stupid clichee about Irishmen always wanting a fight ... ) - but what has the ability to emphasise notes got to do with the fingering system?

???

Perhaps it's not the fingering system at all. Perhaps it's the straps - and here we come to your idea of "mastering the sound".
With the Anglo, the heel of your hand is firmly on the end of the concertina, and the back of your hand is pressed firmly against the wide, heavy strap. The whole strength of your arms is directly linked to the bellows, and there's no slack to take up when you change bellows direction. You are in immediate control of the dynamics.

Recordings I've heard of English concertinas do sound rather anaemic by comparison to typical Anglo (not just ITM) recordings. But perhaps this is because of the tenuous "line of command" between your brain and the bellows. The last joints of your thumb and pinkie are not exactly the most robust actuator rods!

Could the leatherwork be more decisive than the button layout?

Cheers,
John

Surely because the Anglo is diatonic or whatever it's called - more frequent changes of direction are generally employed. The change of bellows direction helps add punch or lift. I suppose you can change direction on the EC if you wish (I've never played one) but do not most EC players play in and out in big sweeps like piano accordions etc, changing direction mostly as the bellows is too full or empty?

The push/pull action definitely acts like an automatic emphasizer, but not very precise. And increasingly useless in the "further" keys. But luckily beginners, who dearly need a "emphasizer" of the push/pull, mostly play in home keys, and as they progress (very few of them, actually), they find ways to play more dynamically in other keys.
The English playing, it seems like, begins in any key the melody was written in, rarely transposed, so often I see two, three sharps right away, but more often I see flats. And gradually (and rarely too) playing becomes more dynamic and push/pull oriented.
But yes, I agree, English bellows changes are less frequent, however I disagree that it depends on fullness of the bellows. It's more oriented towards completion of the phrase.
Leather work has lots to do with the comfort and accentuation, no doubt.
Traditionaly reeded instruments do sound better to me, when played melodiously with very little, but pronounced harmony snippets. In which case Anglo is easier. So it does look like Anglo was designed as harmony instrument, and English as melody. That's why the pinkie rest is there, to place fifth and forth fingers there, and play with other two. Very comfortable and logical. Any other ways of using pinkie rests are anatomically compromised, and playing seated with such a small and light instrument seems like a compromise as well.

Yes, of course the diatonic arrangement forces you to change bellows direction at certain points in a tune. But it also prevents you from doing so at other points. Even on the Bandonion, with upwards of 50 buttons, you're never quite free to choose whether or not to change direction.
Theoretically, with the English system, you're always free to choose reversal or no reversal. So why do some English players go to the lengths of learning Anglo just to get more "punch"?

The only answer I can think of (never having played an English) is that the thumb and pinkie are just not adequate for all that energetic push-pull. I can imagine that old Wheatstone was thinking of a nice, classical legato rather than a boisterous jig when he invented those thumb-straps!

How about it, you English players - can you "punch" out a dance tune with heavy and light beats (like a Strathspey, for instance) on the English?

Cheers,
John

Very nice!

Many English concertina players may be using longer legato phrases on the bellows because they can and they like the effect. Putting punch in the playing involves both bellows control and a certain amount of stacatto fingering. Adding appropriate harmony (something I'm certainly not good at yet) takes more thought.

Is it possible that the accenting in Anglo playing comes from a different set of muscles than the accenting in English playing: on anglo it seems to come from upper body (chest, upper arms) and on EC from wrist and hands?

A similar thing happens in bowing a fiddle-- delicacy in bowing comes from the wrist and hand, heavy accent more from the arm. Shuffle bowing tends to be from the arm, decorations like the rapid triplet with bowing reversal and the snap found in Scottish fiddle styles use the wrist and hand.

Have a listen to the likes of Alastair Anderson (sorry can't find any YouTube clips just at the moment)....
or Simon Thoumire
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LiSnLR6Ojuk

Yes.

I play for dancing, though not for Scottish dancing. I think there is enough punch, though I suppose you'd have to ask the dancers I play for. I enjoy playing strathspeys and hornpipes, particularly the dotted ones with lots of articulation. Certainly I have heard other players of EC who did get plenty of punch for Scottish dance music (Gene Morrow comes to mind) or for other forms needing it (Alistair Anderson and Rachel Hall come to mind). My impression is that historically the EC was more prevalent in Scotland than the anglo. Could someone more certain of the facts on that either support or refute that impression?

I think this is true. To play Anglo to speed, you have to learn how to reverse the bellows very quickly, sometimes for two or three notes in a row. It takes the larger, stronger muscles of the upper body to do that, which gives a much more decisive and vigorous action than you ever need on an English (or duet). It's possible to learn to do this playing English, I'm sure -- but you'd have to artifically create situations where you regularly reverse the bellows quickly back and forth at speed, and that's hard at first. I rarely see an English player that uses this technique. From my experience playing duet and Anglo, I think the necessity of fast repeated bellows reversals (and how you have to use more of your body to do them) is the main difference as far as "punchiness" is concerned. I haven't played with the English-style thumb loop and pinkie rest to assess how they might contribute.

Well I play my EC with as much dynamics as possible. I play with the right end of the concertina on my right knee. I play with 2 x 2 fingers only (very rarely I use an extra finger when playing an air or slow air). So there are two fingers in each pinkie rest. There are also wrist straps. All this allows a firm grip on my instrument and allows me to create the dynamics I want, especially when playing Irish dance music.
I observed my own playing a little and I use the bellows constantly. I use the reverse technique but I also use a kind of push, push, push or draw, draw, draw ''technique''. This technique gives extra punch to the music without having to reverse. So with smaller or larger ''shock-like pulls'' (sorry do not know how to describe this correctly in English) while on the pull you can create a similar effect, and you can use that for the draw also. I see that my bellows is always in motion, like: small pull, larger pull, reverse, series of small pulls, reverse, draw, etc. Most EC players I know use their bellows quite differently which most of the time result in a legato effect. This can be beautiful for airs and slow airs or for just a small passage in some of the dance music, but doesn't work at all for most Irish dance music.
And of course there is all the different ornamentations (much of the ornamentation should not be too smooth but ''hiccup-like'') wich together with the bellow technique will create an Irish feel to the music you make.
But there is more; for instance the way you hit (or just push) a button can also create certain effects.
OK it is way past bedtime here - I'm off....

Having listened to hours of English and Anglo system playing I cannot see any justification to change instruments.The construction of the instruments is the same principle it is only the layout of the notes and buttons that are different.If an Anglo is played across the rows or by using the accidentals for speed on an Anglo there is no difference between what an Anglo player can achieve against an English. What is lacking is technique English players tend to get into a habit of not playing a note crisply, but slightly slurring one note into the next.The art of just touching the button to get a crisp note seems to be lost from a very early age in English playing techniques. An Anglo player usually does not get into this habit as the quick playing to get a note in and out forces the habit of sharp crisp notes and bellows control. This technique suffers immediatly the Anglo player starts to cross rows or use accidentals immediatly slurring the note as English playing. There are certain things an English or Duet player can do like holding a note or a chord and by pushing and pulling fast can provide a sound effect on the instrument that cannot be done on an Anglo. Classical music and Song accompaniment favours the smoother system of the English and Duet systems.
For other types of music I would suggest that you "review the situation".
Al

I think that Alistair Anderson is probably one of the finest exponents of the English Concertina and, in comparison to an Anglo, the playing (for lack of better phrasing) sounds 'light' and lacks punch - not, of course, that is intended as a negative observation. No doubt it is possible to get an 'Irish' sound out of an English Concertina, if one was a good player and I'm not that good. It is the punchier sound of the Irish that appeals to me.

OK, that's off my chest. Anyone fancy making an observation or recommendation on my possible purchase? I am looking at:

The Scarlatti from Hobgoblin at £165
The Stagi from Hobgoblin at £279
The Rochelle from the Music Room at £270

Regards, Chris

well I have the Scarlatti from Hobgoblin no complaints at least nothing major that isn't just being penickety. But its not going to be the one I keep playing forever...I've been saving and am going to get a more expensive one. It was a bit buzzy at first but now its gone away with more playing. Still rather stiff though definitely feel like I've had a workout after an hours practice. lol!

I would suggest a purchase of English International and listen to the playing of Dave Townsend and Jan Elliott before you fully decide.The rest are pretty good as well.
Al

Alistair Anderson is a wonderful player but doesn't come near to what Irish Music should be like on EC (but than he has another repertoir).
Listen to this on English concertina (youtube):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUWKM16vwzA

When I started playing in the 1970s, the only concertinas I saw and heard were English.
So, yes, I would say that the EC was the most prevalent type in Scotland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpMVPV2mf_4

This is a pretty good example of an Irish tune played on the EC.
It's the same person referred to in the earlier post.
It's very punchy and very crisp- and he does it with little bellows movement.
However, it seems to me not to have the flow and beauty of the AC.
I think the playing is very accomplished but it's just not the same as on the Anglo.
It's as if he's forcing the insturment to do somethng it doesn't want to do.

---------------

"...it is possible to get an 'Irish' sound out of an English Concertina, if one was a good player..."
If this is the true, then who might that player be? I've never heard an EC player
communicate the same rhythmic bounce and phrasing as an AC player.
The sound itself seems very different- to my ears at least.
This is odd since the reeds aren't much different.
Could the chambers make the difference?

I agree that the sound of an AC is generally different from an EC, and I still do not know why (I recently posted a thread with exactly that question, but no satisfying answer came from it). Furthermore you must not expect that an EC should sound the same as an AC, just that the music made should have a ''good Irish feel'' to it. Otherwise it's like playing a melody on a bouzouki and trying to make it sound like a guitar...
There is no tradition at all of Irish playing on EC. But there has been a great boom in Irish concertina (AC) playing lately (for quite some time actually) which produced many great young players. I personally am not impressed by most of older pre-Noel Hill AC players. There are quite a few that I find not that convincing both rhytmically and ''punchlike''.

During my lengthy investigations for English International,I spent some considerable time investigating Irish EC playing.One name that was suggested was
Ms O'Dowd (from memory Mary)who was All Irish Concertina Champion about 50-60s and played EC. With the help of friends I tracked her down in Ireland and sadly she had stopped playing about twenty years ago and also there were no known recordings of her playing.You do not however win a competition like this with poor playing so it is possible on this Instrument.
I do not play the English Concertina ,but I would like to suggest some comments on the example of playing put forward by David as suggestions for discussion.
Firstly his button control is excellent ,each note comes over crystal clear .His timing is also spot on with not speeding up or slowing down.The overall effect is good. I would suggest however that his bellows control is non existent. Although he has the choice of the same notes in the opposite direction,most of the tune is played with the bellows totally on the push until the bellows smack together and then to the extent of the bellows in the opposite direction.There is no use of the bellows to emphasise certain notes,which with the Anglo the pressure in the bellows is an important factor.I would suggest that the instrument is not at fault but the technique of the player.
Al

Anybody with an opinion on the above? Or is it just down to my own personal choice?

One thing I can't do is actually compare them myself as I live far too far from anywhere to make that a possibility. So, I'm really buying 'blind', or should that be 'deaf' as well? If anyone can offer guidance on a good choice, then I'd be very grateful.

Regards, Chris

I'm a little hesitant to disagree with such an expert but on the other hand I do play english concertina. I do not believe it is possible to play the EC the way 'clunktrip' is playing without very good bellows control. It is difficult to see changes in bellows pressure during play and that is primarily what supplies the accent and rhythm influence of the bellows of an EC. With anglo playing it is much easier to see the reversals of the bellows giving rhythmic punch to the playing even at fast tempos.

No hesitation necessary Michael,I am a listener not a player of EC, so that is why I suggested a discussion and I welcome points your of view as an English player.
Perhaps you can tell me why so many notes need to be played with one direction of the bellows and a similar number on the pull when there is an option to change direction.With more air in the bellows there is more control.The bellows do not reach their limit and there are more options for enhancing certain notes.
I agree watching and hearing the music he certainly plays with skill and ability,my comments are an attempt at constructive criticism .I still cannot understand why an English concertina who's reeds are made in exactly the same way cannot be made to sound like an Anglo with skilled playing techniques. If on an Anglo player plays across the rows it is possible for long passages to be played on the pull or the push.If that is the case no matter what instrument is being played, the notes will sound the same on an Anglo or an English.
Perhaps I am wrong, do not hesitate to tell me, I am keen to know the answer.
Al

I have never seen anyone try to play an EC with lots of bellows reversals and I have not tried it myself. I think there are several things that are intrinsic to the construction of the instruments that make differences in the sound given the same reeds. The bellows are constructed differently. The anglo bellows is stiffer to facilitate rapid changes in air pressure. Also, similar to a melodeon, the sound is different if you hold a button down and reverse the bellows to get two notes versus pressing the button twice or using two different buttons. As you know it is not possible on the EC to have this option. Consequently I don't think anyone, however skilled, is going to 'fool' knowlegable listeners with an EC and make them think it's an anglo. That is not to say they can't make excellent renditions of Irish tunes. I chose the EC because I think it is a wonderfully versatile melody instrument but I'll be the first to admit if I wanted to play only irish music I would have chosen the anglo.

This conversation has been so polite...and the moon was full. Mr. Stutesman makes good point on the EC bellows. However I play more Irish music on a weekly basis than anything else and would not choose the AC ever. Been there, done that and really found it a limitation...for me.

From time to time the Stoners have had an Anglo player cruse through our session. For the other members it was how can I say...jarring.

The "bounce" and "lift" oft dispalyed was overwelhming. I could see it in their eyes. The instruments were mostly very loud and angular. Instead of becoming a part of the group sound dymanic it seemed that there was a need to stand apart. This is just the experience in Ashland at present, from time to time and as they say "your milage may vary"...

I don't want to play Irish music on an EC like an AC. What I wish I could have done was to play the fiddle. That didn't happen, so I guess I live with second best and what worked with the muddle that is my mind....Over the years I have come to love it almost as much as I envy fiddle players .

Mark,
As an Irishman, and thus one who grew up with the entire spectrum of Irish music - of which so-called ITM is a stylised version of just a small segment - I can relate to that.

Irish dance music is not concertina music, certainly not Anglo concertina music. It is a body of melodic material, with a range of rhythms matching the indigenous dances. The traditional way of playing this material has emerged because of the necessity for a solo fiddler or piper to provide the music for dances in times past. The decorations are there to provide the musical interest and rhythmic support that in other traditions come from accompanying instruments. Later, fluters found ways to realise this playing tradition on their instrument, too.

Fluting, fiddling and piping are all older in Ireland than AC playing. When the AC came along, players looked for ways to adapt to the tradition, as the fluters had done before them.
One thing that fiddle, flute and pipes do NOT have is a necessity to change bellows direction! The fiddler is free to change his bow direction when he wants to (within reason, like an EC player his bellows); the bellows of the pipes are independent of the flow of the music; and the flute has only one airflow direction that has to be interrupted to take a breath.
Each has its limitations, too: the fiddle can't sound more than 2 notes at once; the flute can only sound one, and needs pauses for breath; and the pipes have no dynamics and their sound cannot be interrupted.

The standard C/G Anglo has a decisive disadvantage in this fiddle-determined music, which is often in D or A, which is alleviated by the sparseness of harmonies that was, thankfully, part of the tradition before the concertina arrived. So the AC can find, and has found, its entree.
But why must the EC come in by the same door? The AC does not sound like the traditional pipes, so why should the EC sound like the meanwhile traditional AC? The clips of reels on the EC linked to from this thread remided me very much of uillean pipes - the most traditional dance-music sound you could get. Like the pipes, the EC gets its emphasis from the fingering and the sparse harmonies. If you want to dock on to ITM with your EC, it would seem to me more logical to emulate the pipes than the AC.

Of course, ITM , like OTM in the US, is a vested interest of AC teachers and AC builders, among others, so they have an interest in regulation. And apparently, in their opinion, a concertina that wants to be ITM has to sound like an AC.
Ignore them!

Cheers,
John

Good Luck with your Anglo journey Chris.

I'm just about to go the other way & start out on an English journey, after playing Anglo for nearly 30 years!

However, I have no intention of not playing Anglo in the future.

I actually want to play both, using them for different sessions & different music.

Perhaps we could swop notes after a few months & see how the change has come to each of us?

Cheers
Dick


Thanks Michael, as an Anglo player who has just bought his first English, that is music to my ears!


Fair play chiton, & to hell with the begrudgers I say. Stick to your guns.


Interesting Alan, I'll watch out for that trap!

[/quote]Of course, ITM , like OTM in the US, is a vested interest of AC teachers and AC builders, among others, so they have an interest in regulation. And apparently, in their opinion, a concertina that wants to be ITM has to sound like an AC. [/quote]

Does the answer to this question not lie in the reality, that all the leading concertina players, playing ITM, play it on an anglo. It's as simple as that, isn't it?

For you yes. I'm unconcerned with the world class Irish AC players, other than God bless em' they're fantastic! I'm not a world class anything...just me. Although I have been called a world class arse!

AC took up a lot of my time and I was just laboring along playing the damned thing with oven mits on. There I would be trying to make music with fine musicians who wanted to make music with me, but all I could do was bump and wheez along like a Model A Ford on it's last legs.

The EC was after being shown a C scale, like someone turned the lights on! Never looked back, never will...and I will always play Irish music with whoever will sit down with me and share a pint and a lie or two. It has worked out very well thus far.

And so may it always. Life gets complicated enough; traditional music is about simplicity, to me anyway. Let the "Trad Police" rave on (not referring to anyone posting on this thread ) . Play the music that stirs you with what you have at hand; that is what moves the stuff from generation to generation, and nothing else.

Oh, I agree with you Mark, of course. The most important thing at the end of the day is playing a bit of music not what instrument you choose to play it on.

For one, not ALL ITM leading players play Anglo.
For two, I would doubt the title "World Class Irish AC players". It's an oxymoron. As far as I can tell, Leading ITM AC (wow!) players are as far from been "World Class Players" as any Joe-Shmoe, picking a melody with one finger on Piano. Not that they HAVE TO be, actually I think they DON'T NEED TO be. The closer they get to "world class", the less of a traditional players they are.
But I just disagree with throwing the compliments, that don't belong. Unless, of course, you are fine with people laughing at us, once again.

I don't know whether I should be cross or just reject this as laughable. All ITM players who are "leading" players on concertina play Anglo. I don't know of any "leading" ITM concertina player who plays EC, or any other concertina than Anglo. (The T in ITM stands for Traditional)

Noel Hill, Tim Collins, Michael O'Rhaillagh, Naill Vallely are all world-class Anglo players. They travel the world and are accepted as wonderful musicians. They are also solidly within the tradition. To say "The closer they get to "world class", the less of a traditional players they are." is just silly. Do you mean that traditional players lack technique or sophistication? Are you saying that being world class -- being good and excelling at what he does -- moves a player away from traditional music? If so, please don't tell Ravi Shankar or Matt Molloy or B.B. King.

Re: "As far as I can tell, Leading ITM AC (wow!) players are as far from been "World Class Players" as any Joe-Shmoe, picking a melody with one finger on Piano."
Sorry, but you can't tell very much. Or haven't listened carefully. Or just don't know enough to tell when the music is good and when it isn't. To say that traditional music is like "any Joe-Shmoe, picking a melody with one finger on Piano" shows incredible ignorance. Especially on a music forum. It's hard to believe somebody posting on this site would say something like that.

As far as being "...fine with people laughing at us..." I think that you are the only one being laughed at here.

Now that's the tenor I'm used to on this subject .

After I've had my second Old Speckled Hen with me fish and chips at Stone's tonight and we've rolled through several groups of tunes and I've sung a few and started another afore mentioned pint....I'll think on this not again.

It's been a frustrating bastard of a day at the job site and I can't wait to rip into the Virginia and Abbey reels and watch as Connie starts tapping her feet back and forth and she and her son Graham start bowing in unison. The world will again be balanced...nirvana reached.

I think Mischa is right when he says "The closer they get to "world class", the less of a traditional players they are" -- at least using HIS yardstick. He has mentioned several times he doesn't really like Irish music much. His yardstick is based much more on western classical music values. When a player rates higher on that scale, they are most likely less traditional. I know I miss out on a lot of subtlety of lilt, rhythmic drive, melodic variation and the like which are so elusive but essential to the best Irish music, because I haven't immersed myself in Irish music, or made any great study of it. But I can hear and appreciate subtleties in it much more than I could a few years ago. In any case, not everone values or responds to the same things in music, and that's completely normal. People resonate with different styles of painting or literature too. I think his only mistake is to come across too strong in asserting that there is nothing there that others could possibly notice and value.

Wow, I saw this thread late, but the clips of clunktrip are awesome. I didnt know it was possible to play irish music like this on an english. To be honnest, so far the irish tunes I heard on an english never had that swing that make irish music interesting to me.

I get the feeling that you need to be very, very talented to play irish music the 'right way' on an english.

Heck, I am being provocative? I do hope so!

I still cannot agree that the English is not capable of fantastic Irish Traditional Music playing ,just because the Anglo is played by what is recognised as the best Concertina players of the music and they play an Anglo, it still does not necessarily mean that the music cannot be played equally as well on an English.It is more that the English at the moment is not accepted by Ireland as the Concertina to play their music on, because of the recent tradition (in Irish music terms) of the Anglo.
When playing the fiddle, players do not always use the full length of the bow to play a tune. They do not play 8 Bars of the tune in one direction and then 8 bars on the way back.There are bowing techniques to achieve the sound they are after.So why is it that English playing techniques, used by some, are based on the principle of maximum push of the bellows for 8 bars and maximum pull for the next 8.If they had ten fold bellows would they play half the tune 16 bars on the push and the rest on the pull. An Anglo can be played in many ways and so can the English,it only needs one superb player to open the door.

Let us enjoy the playing and the discussions.
My hat is in the ring now shoot it full of holes.

"Two Speckled Hens and Fish and Chips" Mark .You know how to live !!
Al

Good morning Al. I agree with you on this:



The music changes and part of that change perhaps is to make music with what lies at hand.
I know that when I switched from EC to AC years ago my playing took on a new character.
But had I persisted with EC who knows. So as Ptarmigan says, to hell with the begrudgers.
Squeeze on, on whatever you play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiSnLR6Ojuk...feature=related
The above reel is very telling, isn't it?
So no, NOT ALL leading ITM players play Anglo, unless I'm mistaken about the given clip, and it's not a leading player, the music is not ITM, or is far away from what is considered ITM by some.



Yes, I agree. I also agree, that a young piano player, conservatory graduate, any, will play circles around even Nail Valley technically. And it's been shown every time when Nail plays with piano accompaniment, and lets pianist to have a lead. No matter how fast or complex Nail's playing is, pianist is faster and more complex. And they are a far cry from World class piano players. But we have covered it before, only very stubborn people with cardboard ears can't hear the difference in subtle detailing world class musicians are capable of, in comparison to simple homegrown folk stars. Each field demands it's standards.

Not so silly (thank you), and yes, they do lack technique and especially sophistication. Part of it is their training, that doesn't have formality and strict quality bars, part is their instruments, that are not designed for such performance. Part is the music, that has very different appeal, part is not having to be universal players.
A world class musician may not be always exciting to listen to, but can play anything at any given time in any given key or level of complexity (within reason).
A traditional musician is only capable of such things within the tunnel of music he is accustomed with. A blessed one he is.
So the phrases: "World class Jew's harp player", or "World class bones player" are really meaningless on a World scale.
But it's the good thing, to have something unique, that World Class has nothing to do with. Why do you even want to emphasize that childish wish to have Concertina accepted by the World? Who cares?


I'm very glad you know how to maintain yourself during a discussion. But it's the old news.
I'd suggest you give Glenn Gould another listening and then switch to Nail Valley. But it's futile.
Yes, people do laugh at clowns, especially at those, who don't realize it. Especially pitiful is the necessity to add: "World Class CONCERTINA player". It just sells immediately the unintended excuse for lower level.
Once again, Traditional Folk music is designed not to be listened to, but played and participated in. Nuances and sophistication have nothing to do with it. The more of the above you got, the farther you get from the tradition, the less people can participate, more technical demand is placed on you, and more formality you need in your education. And what is left is "folk" dance performed by Ballet dancers on central stages, with symphony orchestra accompaniment.
River Dance doesn't represent ITM.
But don't despair, Moiseev Folk Ensemble doesn't represent Russian traditional dance just as well. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

P.S.
Boney, I didn't really say that I don't like Irish music, I just said I can't listen to it unaccompanied for long. I said a few times, that young generation of Irish players will make folks like Noel Hill try harder.

Then why is it that James Galway sounds ridiculous when he tries to play traditional irish tunes? It's because he can't. You seem to think that just because a violinist, for example, can play the most complex Bach composition with effortless fluidity, that he can play convincing old-time fiddle. That is not the case. And even a great classical guitarist can't play like Jimi Hendrix. It's not a question of virtuosity. It's a question of feel, style, energy, and more. It takes a rare person to pull off playing the pipes like Johnny Doran, or playing fiddle like Michael Coleman. True, the music they played wasn't as "sophisticated" in an art-music sense as those of classical composers. But the subtleties, drive, lilt, energy, passion, and skill they put into it was as impressive as any great musician who has ever lived.

PS: I said you didn't really like it much, not that you disliked it. Which I think is fairly apparent from your posting history.