I thought I'd share with you the delivery of a new 38 button anglo By Geoff Crabb. This was designed by Geoff for me to play predominately Irish music. Geoff has curved the hand rests to fit smoothly into my palms and the straps were made to measure to ensure a snug fit. Another feature is the two stage air valve which can either provide trickle on the half push or fully open when completely depressed.

It is a joy to play with a fast responsive action and beuatifully sounding reeds which will improve as the instrument is broken in.

PS Geoff is the handsome one.

There will be many here green with envy, I'll warrant, and already planning the secret commando operation to liberate your concertina into their care

Congratulations on what is obviously a very fine instrument.

Cheers,

Chris

Ah, so you got #802, congratulations!

I had a play on #801 the weekend before last, a highly unusual treble-piccolo English that was custom-made by Geoff for a member here.

I believe they were both delivered at Bradfield?

The "highly unusual instrument" was made for me. I had approached Geoff's dad, Harry, way back in 1980 about making a tenor instrument pitched an octave above (or another way of thinking of it was as a piccolo extended down to Middle C, if you will). I had a piccolo at the time, and also a great Crabb tenor, and wanted the ability to play the "low notes" on the piccolo. Harry thought this was "unnatural" and turned down my request. I also tried to convince Neville (Geoff's older brother) at the time and after Harry's death, but by that time they were so busy making normal instruments that it didn't seem like a likely possibility. And then Neville died suddenly and the shop closed -- a terribly sad time for concertina players everywhere.

When I met Geoff again a few years ago, after his retirement, and he told me that he was again making instruments, I renewed the idea with him. At first he thought I wanted a tenor instrument that went up an extra octave or two, and protested that would be impossible to make. I finally got across the idea that I wanted a tenor instrument pitched an octave higher than a normal one -- i.e., like a piccolo. (This gosh-darned concertina terminology sure is confusing -- why do we call a "treble" a "treble" -- it's the soprano voice, right? And why do we distinguish between a "tenor" and a "tenor-treble," which really are the same thing with slightly different ranges . . .) Anyhow . . .

Geoff kindly agreed to make the instrument and I am happy to report it's as good, if not better, than anything that ever came out of the Crabb workshop in its heydey. Someone with lots of money should film Geoff making an instrument or at least document his methods as he represents the last in a distinguished line of makers. I had suggested to the Horniman that they hire him on a part-time basis as a consultant/lecturer but I think they lack the money to do so. Any inheritors of large fortunes (or smaller ones, well-invested) might consider undertaking this task.

Here's Geoff giving it a try at Bradfield:

I believe a boy soprano's part in a score is also called the treble part. Maybe a treble EC is a treble to keep it from seeming too "girly"?

jdms

I believe a boy soprano's part in a score is also called the treble part. Maybe a treble EC is a treble to keep it from seeming too "girly"?

jdms
[/quote]


True enough, but how about the SOPRANO saxophone?? It's a manly instrument, that's fer sure!

Howdy:
Seems that "treble" is causing all the trouble.
In the world of one might want to indicate as "legitimate" or maybe a less controversial term, standard "orchestral instruments", no instrument uses the term "treble" as a portion of it's name.
Also, aside from a few oddities, there are no hyphenated uses such as "tenor-treble" or "piccolo-tenor" or "baritone-treble".

It appears that the concertina, similar to the other famillies of instruments, could easily be named in a proper hierarchy as follows using the basic names to label the instruments.....

"Legitimate" Orchestral Instrument Label

Soprano (as in saxophone, clarinet)
Alto (as in saxophone, flute, clarinet)
Tenor (as in saxophone)
Baritone (as in saxophone)
Bass (as in saxophone, clarinet, bass)

Present Concertina Label
Piccolo
Treble
Tenor
Baritone
Bass

New Concertina Label / My Own Suggestions?
Soprano
Alto
Tenor
Baritone
Bass

By the way, the saxophone also has a "sopranino" (an octave higher than an alto in E flat AND in the last few years something called a "Soprillo", an octave higher than a soprano saxopone in B flat.
But, I'm sure that is the copyrighted commercial ame for this thing.
We could save those terms for naming the mini concertinas, when we get around to it, but that's maybe for another time.


As is obvious, I am using the saxophone (my previous instrument) as a basis for this due to the fact that it is one family in the "legitmate" (and some would question that term for the saxophone) that uses different names for each family member on a regular basis, as does the clarinet, flute, trombone (partially) and a few others.

Continuing the list with the more "odd" concertinas, adding a hyphen appears to make sense, in addition to the use of a few less commonly used terms in the "legitimate" world

Piccolo-Tenor (no doubt our newest family member) CHANGES TO Mezzo-Soprano
Extended Treble (up) CHANGES TO Alto Extended Up (any other suggestions?)
Tenor-Treble CHANGES TO Alto Extended Down (any other suggestions?) or Tenor Extended Up OR Tenor-Alto
Tenor-Baritone, Bass-Baritone, etc. CHANGES TO.......HELP!!!!!! Any suggestions? How about "Chubby"


Anyway, the real problem seems to lie when the hyphenated name instruments make their appearance and gets more confusing when an explanation needs to be added when describing the instrument like

"Yeah, I've got a treble which extends up like a piccolo, but also has a few extra notes at the bottom like a partial tenor-treble, but I had the C# changed to a B double flat, so I could play in the key of F# Mixolydian with less effort. Oh yeah, I'm also having the right pinky rest removed, since I had my left pinky shortened so I could play jazz".

Those are the ones that really drive me to the brink.

Can each example of customized concertinas have a special label?

Heck (see below), I have a 56-key baritone which is extended upwards (I think) or is it s tenor extended way down. I'm still not sure what I have.
Wind and other manufacturers throughout history have come up with clever, pretty, technical, etc. names for many of the "oddball" instruments.
Like in the double reed family, we find the "oboe d'amour" (one of my favorites).
How about a "Mezzo-Soprano Concertina d'Amore"?
Or, also in the double reed family the "heckelphone" (kind of a giant, scary looking oboe on steroids).
If we add the first syllable "heckel" to a concertina, that's exactly what the auduence might do when the darn thing gets squeezed.
And why name the high guy with "piccolo" if we're not going to name a low guy like a baritone-bass a "tuba" or something.

By the way, can anyone answer who exactly came up with the commonly used concertina labels.
Charles Wheatstone perhaps or a more musically inclined employee?
Again, I think it's treble who's causing the trouble !!!!!!!
But then again there are all of those oddball varieties of concertinas with the oddball numbers of buttons.
What are we going to call them?
How about........Little Bastards!!!!!!!!
In the world of wind instruments anyway, there were very few custom made instruments with extensions, extra keys, extra bells, etc., etc. manufactured.
They do exist, but are quite rare in most cases.
Performers have always had instruments modified but the concertina players seemed like they went wild with ideas and variants and specific needs.
Seems like in the concertina world these were much more common and no doubt easier to configure and produce. An extra few holes and keys here, an extra bellows fold there. Stuff like that.

Any other suggestions or insights (or labels)
Have fun,
Perry Werner


PS: By the way, if you are interested in this sort of thing there are some excellent books out there on the history of instrument manufacture and of special note is "The Bate Collection" in the Faculty of Music buildings next to Christ Church College, in Oxford. A fascinating collection which I got to visit a few weeks ago, showing things you could have never imagined and if you did, they are there!

Man, that pulled a heart....

The very first EC I held in my hands was a brand spanking new Crabb. It was love at first touch What a beautiful, welll crafted instrument. The proud owner seeing I was hooked, offered me his beat-up Bastari. After fighting that thing for a few months he put me in touch with Grey Larson who was selling a Wheatstone recently restored by Crabb. What a thing of beauty. I stole down the stairs out of the apartment building half fearing Mr. Larson would think better of parting with the instrument.

On opening up the Stone I found to my delight each reed's pitch was designated in pencel by a confident hand in pencil. I enjoyed thinking it was the Sr. Crabbs script.

Congratulations Richard. Enjoy!

I think this ''trouble'' is great fun. I don't think using alto instead of treble will solve anything. It will only result in the loss of a well coined term, which is specific for our concertina world. As I like diversity I would consider that a loss indeed.
Likewise I love the fact that so many personalized instruments were made, resulting in many different types of concertinas. In wooden simple system concert flutes of the 19th and early 20th century you can see the same thing. Apart from the regular 6 or 8 keyed flutes there were a myriad of ''odd''keyed flutes made.
As one of my passions (beside concertina playing) is systematic biology, it would be no great effort to make a identification key of all (? or most) types of concertinas. Using certain characteristics like; number of buttons, keys, range etc.

I agree that this is fun, and I agree that replacing "treble" with something else is not going to improve anything. We have a wealth of musical terms, each with a traditional meaning, and from my linguist's point of view, we should take the "semantic auras" of the existing words into acount when naming new instruments.

We've got the terms "treble" and "bass" to denote the upper and lower ends of an instrument's range. In piano music, we write the higher notes in the treble clef, the lower notes in the bass clef. In four-part church-choir music, the soprano and alto voices are noted in the treble, the tenor and bass voices in the bass clef.
For instrument families, like the orchestra strings, we even have a special "tenor clef" for the violas, because their range doesn't fit comfortably on either the bass or treble clefs. So we tend to call instruments that are pitched lower than the highest member of the family "tenors".

The saxophones are an unusual family, in that there are a lot of them with different ranges. The simple treble, tenor and bass distinction that works for viols and krummhorns doesn't work here. But the human voice also has very fine graduations of range: soprano, mezzo-soprano, alto, tenor, baritone and bass. So it seems appropriate to use voice metaphors for the saxes.

With English concertinas, there's a standard configuration with 48 buttons - isn't there? (I'm an angloist ...) This is analog to the "normal" compass of a trained human voice. These 48 notes can cover different, overlapping sections of the scale - like treble (high end), tenor, baritone and bass (very low end). This is all you need for 4-part ensemble music, analog to a church choir or a string quartet.
Now, as it seems to me, the "hyphenated" concertinas - e.g. the tenor-treble - are NOT pitched BETWEEN two standard pitches, e.g. tenor and treble. They have more than 48 notes, and have the compass of a tenor AND a treble - am I getting this right? The tenor-treble is both a tenor and a treble, and that's what the name indicates. If you called it an "alto concertina", one would tend to expect it to have the standard compass of 48 notes, lacking the high notes of a treble and the low notes of a tenor.

Yes, this is a fun problem!

Cheers,
John

Howdy John:
Yeah, I think you got it right.
A tenor-treble has all of the notes of a standard (not exteneded, which goes higher) 48-key treble and goes down to what I believe is called "tenor C", the same bottom note of a standard tenor concertina, so tenor-treble is right on if we accept the hyphenated name which it has evidently always had.


To throw more confusion and thought into the mix, following my initial posting about the labeling (or mislabeling or relabeling) of the concertina family I started thinking about the additional concertinas of which I recently became aware of.
Two of those being what I beleive was called the "clarinet concertina" and much to my surprise the "saxophone concertina" (great another thing I have to have).
From what I understand, these were instruments which had their reeds modified to give their sound a "flavor" which mimicked the indicated instrument.
Evidently for use primarily in concertina bands.
Maybe an appropriate subject for another thread.


In the new world of concertina labels, where will they fit in?
Leave them the way they are or rename them also?
Anyone know if there were other concertinas with other instrument names added.
Euphonium Concertina? Krumhorn Concertina, Bass Fiddle Concertina, how about a Piccolo Piccolo concertina?

And as for clefs. why are the other instruments aside from the viola not using some of the more oddball clefs.
Why does a tenor saxophone not read tenor clef, a bass saxophone, bass clef.
The only instruments that I am aware of sing these less frequently used clefs are the viola and I believe, the trombone, which if I remember from music school also at times is required to read tenor clef.

I'll stop there. I just did a Google search on clefs to find out more about which instruments use the "oddballs" (sorry oddball clef users) to find there are many other clefs, most of which I was unaware of.
Take a look.
This will will either make you give up music altogether or make you very "clefer"

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory14.htm

Have fun,
Perry Werner

I wish that music written to make use of the lower range of a Tenor-Treble were written using a Tenor Clef.
I'm not practised enough to sight read so many leger lines below the stave.
Occasionally, I have tried playing a Baritone part on a Tenor-Treble, provided the part doesn't go below the low C of the Tenor-Treble.
The snag is that all the notes are in the "wrong" place because it's written an octave higher than it sounds.
Instead of the usual English rule that notes on the bar lines are on the left hand and notes between the bar lines are on the right hand, the rule is reversed when transposing by an octave.
It makes it much harder when you have to go against the natural instincts of which hand plays which note.
This year at Swaledale I struggled with such a part, then had to admit defeat and borrow a Baritone.
What would have been nice would have been if the part had been printed using a Tenor Clef.

Dave Townsend managed, using computer sortware, to come up with the concertina Bass Clef.
It's looks like a normal Bass Clef, but shifted up a line, so that the notes are in the same position as for a Treble Clef, but when played on a Bass sound two octaves lower.

Classical guitar music (which is right in the range for a tenor-treble) is written using ledger lines below the staff on a standard treble clef. Music for viola in the same range uses an alto clef.

Writing parts for baritone (or bass) concertina using treble clef and then sounding an octave or two lower makes changing from one range of concertina to another easy-- I'm rather glad I don't have to use bass clef when I play my baritone in the rare occasions when I'm playing in a multipart group (recently at Folk College-- thanks to Rachel Hall for organizing the concertina band there). This is rather like the tradition of using scordatura for viola d'amore--- the music is written as if it were to be played on a violin, even though the strings are tuned to a D minor chord rather than GDAe. That tradition seems to ignore the fact that the viola d'amore has 7 strings rather than 4, but recognize that most viola d'amore players were violinists playing the instrument to get a different tone color. There is some historical viola d'amore music written using a staff with 10 lines instead of 5. A similar mechanism might help for the tenor-treble concertina, perhaps marking clearly with a C-clef where middle C is, making sure it is on a line (perhaps the third line up in an 8 line staff??). I think one could do that in abc plus. I'll have to give it a try.

Yikes, those tenor, alto, soprano etc., clefs have always looked to me so strange and foreign.
At this point in my life I'd rather avoid them.

Perry

Now that's kinda cool.
Great idea!!!!!!!!!

Perry

Larry:
A multi-line staff (more than 5).
That's very interesting!
I look forward to seeing what you come up with!
Oh yeah, I forgot that there was a viola d'amore.
Wonder what the d'amore family had in common and why labeled as such.
Don't forget the previously mentioned oboe d'amour, viola's quacky cousin!


Perry

I think I'll move this to the Tunes forum, since we've moved rather far from the original topic.
Check there for an example.

Larry

For a guide to the ranges and common desciptions of English Concertinas see:-

Doc. Attachement at http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php...ost&id=2612

Sorry I am not clever enough to condense the link.

The 56 Treble was some times called 'Soprano'.

Before eagle eyes pick it up, the concertina in Richards picture is actually a 43 Key Hexagonal Treble, not his new instrument.

Geoff